UK riots: Birmingham's Muslims and Sikhs debate response to tragedy

[Grant]

This is how intelligent adults respond to tragedy and a potential crisis.

Emotions run high at candlelit vigil for three men killed in riots as Asian communities weigh up how to react

Muslims and Sikhs in Birmingham debate how to react to the deaths of the three men

UK riots: Birmingham's Muslims and Sikhs debate response to tragedy | UK news | guardian.co.uk


When the prime minister, David Cameron, said on Wednesday the riots had brought out "some of the best of Britain", he could not have known how fitting that description would be of events on a petrol station forecourt in the suburb of Birmingham 12 hours later.

Spilling out in the road beside the Jet garage, where three Asian men were killed the previous night, around 300 Muslim and Sikh men gathered to debate how they should respond to the tragedy.

There were no politicians in sight – no official community spokespeople or religious leaders. These were local men, struggling to know how to manage their grief and anger.

 

[paris]

Multiculturalism is a failure. Non-Christians share barbaric values and can't adapt to our societies. If any thing this shows that sissies in Europe will never be able to take responsibility and attests to the failure of social democracies.

Edit: Who are these obviously immigrants to try to restore law and order? Deport them away!

 

[alexa]

Multiculturalism is a failure. Non-Christians share barbaric values and can't adapt to our societies. If any thing this shows that sissies in Europe will never be able to take responsibility and attests to the failure of social democracies.

They won't ever learn though, those cultural marxist's. For a start lets get rid of this PC brainwashing

The techniques of political correctness are now well known: attacks on the curriculum in the name of “multiculturalism,” the imposition of restrictive and vaguely-worded “speech codes,” and mandatory “sensitivity training” courses for juniors that are little more than systematic efforts at ideological indoctrination. But the influence of political correctness has spread in other disturbing ways.

the origins of PC can be traced to the rise of modern ideology and its quest for power. In contrast to the classical and Judeo-Christian traditions, which stressed man’s need to understand the moral order and conform himself to it, modern ideologies have sought to dominate and control the world.

A European Declaration of Independence Page 29

These riots and looting have shown the total failure of liberal policies. Any who do not see that clearly do not care for their nation and must be severely dealt with.

Muslims have been spreading their ideas and polluting european thought ever since De Gaul sold Europe to the arabs.

leading to

1. Coordination of the efforts made by the Arab countries to spread the Arabic language
and culture in Europe,
2. Creation of joint Euro-Arab Cultural Centers in European capitals,
3. The necessity of supplying European institutions and universities with Arab teachers specialised in teaching Arabic to Europeans, and
4. The necessity of cooperation between European and Arab specialists in order to present a positive picture of Arab-Islamic civilisation and contemporary Arab issues to the educated public in Europe.

These agreements could not be set forth in written documents and treaties due to their politically sensitive and fundamentally undemocratic nature. The European leaders thus carefully chose to call their ideas "dialogue." All meetings, committees and working groups included representatives from European Community nations and the European Council along with members from Arab countries and the Arab League. Proceedings and decisions took place in closed sessions. No official minutes were recorded.

A European Declaration of Independence Pages 247/8

To save Europe we must deport all these Muslims and regain our heritage. Once the Church is restored we can get rid of all democracy, social or otherwise.

 

[Ben K.]

This is the best Britain has to offer in this incident.

LONDON RIOT VICTIMS DAD IN PLEA TO RIOTERS - YouTube

True legend. Indeed, it's the kind of power that no politician or beauracrat can evoke.

The Anders Brevik comparison to critics of social democracy above, seems pretty typical of the extreme side of its proponents. Perhaps a modern day Godwin? This thoughtful piece by a British conservative teacher may show them they're reacting with vitriol to more reasonable people than they think.

Someone yesterday, assuming I was a) white, b) wealthy and c) middle class suggested I shouldn't be a teacher because I would obviously inculcate Tory values. I am not white, though my brothers were, and they were in that 13 to 20% forty years ago. Both were criminals, one dead from drugs, the other's sons are now in the BNP and EDL. The social group now suffering the greatest deprivation - and most likely to be victims of crime - are young white working class men. It amused me to scan through the FB friendlists of those I've been arguing with over the last few days. None of them stooped to the 'some of my best friends are black' cliche, because demonstrably, none of them could. I'm certainly not wealthy - far from it - though I would have been if I had stuck with that corporate job. And I prefer not think of myself as middle class, incapable as I am of middle-class guilt or enjoying middlebrow culture. I'd rather think of myself as having jumped, via education and inclination, straight to the upperclass, who share with the lower classes an unashamed tendency for debt, debauchery and drink. If you don't understand that link, you'll never understand why many working class Londoners would rather vote for smirking Boris than simpering Ken. As far as I know I have not taught Tory values. I've taught my pupils what I was taught. I've taught them that language is a wardrobe of many costumes, and that your life is a great deal richer - as is your bank account - if you have the liberty of choice between jeans and hoodie, an interview suit and a cocktail dress. I've taught them to question everything they're told, especally by teachers and politicians and the press. Maybe those are Tory values; one of the many reasons I became a Tory is that when I was part of the underclass, the right-wingers in positions of power around me offered me a hand-up, whereas the left-wingers merely offered me a handout.

I'm digressing, personalising, because I am angry and despairing. Right and left are meaningless in terms of what has happened over the last few nights. If you genuinely think that this wouldn't have happened if the coalition had been Labour/Lib Dem you need to get off the internet and get out more. That 13 - 20% have no respect or concern for or interest in any government, and probably can't even distinguish between the range of worthies in suits who have ruled us during their lifetimes. I've even seen someone blame Thatcher for what happened last night, as if Cameron had achieved the kind of reversal of history that was beyond Pohl Pot. Politics does not concern the 13 to 20%; criminality is their norm, just as it was their parents' norm.

They are not part of the society the people reading this belong to. Rioting last night gave them a sense of power and control, over the police, and over their neighbours. It's a huge oversimplification to say these are simply poor areas. Patterns of housing - particularly the rental market - in London are way more complex than that and Hackney, Clapham, Brixton etc have been increasingly gentrified over the last thirty years. The communities are much more mixed than many commentators will acknowledge. What these riots - which aren't demonstrations, but parties got out of hand, with fires and prizes - is the degree of alienation from their own communities, their inability to acknowledge that they are part of any community. They also don't see themselves as angry or even oppressed, because they cannot look beyond the circumstances they are in and the peer pressures around them. And it is about bad parenting, to the extent that when the 13 to 20% become parents they have no aspirations or responsibilities for their children to inherit. That won't change if you treat merely them as victims, and enhance their sense of entitlement to trainers and TVs, nor if you treat them merely as criminals and process them through a judicial system that encourages recidivism.

Adult Content Notice

 

[Grant]

There are good people, such as in that area in the first post where the Sikhs and Muslims were gathered before they decided to just go home, but then there is this.

London rioters resent media image of hooded teen thug

The real question is 'Who is going to win this 'revolution'?'

 

[gunner]

There are good people, such as in that area in the first post where the Sikhs and Muslims were gathered before they decided to just go home, but then there is this.

London rioters resent media image of hooded teen thug

The real question is 'Who is going to win this 'revolution'?'

Revolution? I think your getting a little carried away (as usual).

Of course theirs a 'small minority' who in their perverse sense of morality will find a way to justify the majority of the mindlessness that has taken place. That said the authorities have very much gained control of the Violence and looting. The difficulty will be in tackling the wider, underpinning issues related to the 'causes', of which there are many, of the rioting and looting.

Paul

 

[alexa]

Revolution? I think your getting a little carried away (as usual).

Of course theirs a 'small minority' who in their perverse sense of morality will find a way to justify the majority of the mindlessness that has taken place. That said the authorities have very much gained control of the Violence and looting. The difficulty will be in tackling the wider, underpinning issues related to the 'causes', of which there are many, of the rioting and looting.

Paul

Oh I think there were one or two of Grant's genre who were hoping for this

Far-right groups have sought to exploit the tensions. The BNP says it will hold its "biggest ever day of action" this weekend and has published a leaflet titled: Looter beware: British defenders protect this area. The EDL claims its supporters are organising across the country and will provide "a strong physical presence, and discourage troublemakers from gathering in our town and city centres".

But Nick Lowles, from anti-racist organisation Hope Not Hate, described it as an attempt to divide communities: "They are trying to use what has happened in London and elsewhere to drum up support for their divisive agenda but the reality is that most communities have come together following these disturbances."

Guardian reporters witnessed one incident in Enfield in which a group of visibly drunk older men chased local youths shouting that they wanted to get the "blacks" and "pakis", but it was an isolated and relatively minor skirmish.

Up to 300 people, mostly white men, were kettled by police at around 11pm on Tuesday in Eltham, after turning out for what some said was a defence of "a white working-class area".

Clive Efford, the local Labour MP, who was on the streets on Tuesday evening, said EDL activists, who he said were outsiders, were "very unwelcome" in the area.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...uslims-and-sikhs-debate-response-tragedy.html

I did wonder if the EDL in particular, might try to exploit this by getting gangs on the loot and blaming it on Muslims. I had to laugh when the Manchester man said 'we have to do this. It just had to be done. It is all those Poles taking our jobs' so if they got the message to blame it on immigration, they forgot to emphasise Muslim's enough.

 

[Gardener]

Oh I think there were one or two of Grant's genre who were hoping for this



http://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...uslims-and-sikhs-debate-response-tragedy.html

I did wonder if the EDL in particular, might try to exploit this by getting gangs on the loot and blaming it on Muslims. I had to laugh when the Manchester man said 'we have to do this. It just had to be done. It is all those Poles taking our jobs' so if they got the message to blame it on immigration, they forgot to emphasise Muslim's enough.

Since you make a claim of Grant's "genre" by immediately linking him to the BNP and EDL, does this mean you are linked to the Muslim Brotherhood?

 

[Grant]

Revolution? I think your getting a little carried away (as usual).

Of course theirs a 'small minority' who in their perverse sense of morality will find a way to justify the majority of the mindlessness that has taken place. That said the authorities have very much gained control of the Violence and looting. The difficulty will be in tackling the wider, underpinning issues related to the 'causes', of which there are many, of the rioting and looting.

Paul

Gunner, did you not notice that the word "revolution' was in quotes, referring to something related to a previous post?

It is not my idea of a revolution. I'm not involved in any way but am only observing this and am quoting what those involved more closely are saying..

I'm happy too respond to your posts but first there must be some thought given before you involve me in your cliched impulsive thinking and then press the send button.

 

[Grant]

Oh I think there were one or two of Grant's genre who were hoping for this

Oh, and what form would this genre inspired revolution of mine take?

I did wonder if the EDL in particular, might try to exploit this by getting gangs on the loot and blaming it on Muslims. I had to laugh when the Manchester man said 'we have to do this. It just had to be done. It is all those Poles taking our jobs' so if they got the message to blame it on immigration, they forgot to emphasise Muslim's enough.

Yes, The EDL did it and are blaming it on others. Oh, and my genre also of course.

 

[alexa]

The Anders Brevik comparison to critics of social democracy above, seems pretty typical of the extreme side of its proponents. Perhaps a modern day Godwin? This thoughtful piece by a British conservative teacher may show them they're reacting with vitriol to more reasonable people than they think.

Not quite. Paris is a friend. I was just joining him. The main quote I gave was I think from Bat Ye'or someone who a lot of the anti-muslim extremists on this board admire and someone with no intellectual qualifications at all.

Grant had before the forum came down and posts were lost responded to the Birmingham deaths with some pretty putrid anti islam hissing. I found after that him saying anything to infer anything positive as quite a disgusting try at deception - although he did of course continue his focus on 'revolution' which was also his slant to this tragedy in the lost posts.

Several other posts before the breakdown of the forum had identified other posters here as anti-islam extremists with at least one agreeing to having the same ideology as Brevik so it was with full knowledge that his views are the views of some of the rw posters here that I posted that.

Your article was good though. Some excellent points.

 

[Grant]

Grant had before the forum came down and posts were lost responded to the Birmingham deaths with some pretty putrid anti islam hissing.

Still can't use quotes, huh???

I found after that him saying anything to infer anything positive as quite a disgusting try at deception - although he did of course continue his focus on 'revolution' which was also his slant to this tragedy in the lost posts.

If you don't read the posts, how can you understand what's going on? Where were you educated?

This is from the article I posted and was quoting the 'revolutiuon' mentioned here.

As the sun set, the men at the estate said they would hang out on a typical evening, play football or visit girlfriends.

"But if the riots kick off again, I'm going. It's history, it's a revolution," Ariom said.

"I loved Hackney during the riot. I loved every minute of it. It was great to see the people coming together to show the authorities that they cannot just come out here bullying."

Do you now see the word "REVOLUTION" in there???

 

[gunner]

It seems Wandsworth Council is the first Council to carry out its threat of evicting a tenant for being involved in looting/rioting...

"They are now believed to be the first council tenant in the country to face losing their home over the rioting and looting which blighted the nation this week".

UK riots: council tenant faces losing home over riot suspect son - mirror.co.uk

I know this to be a very contentious issue. That said, after being involved through a residents association for many years in community issues, it's something that i have seen work, for the benefit of the wider community. It often starves the offending persons of their localised Criminal networks.

Paul

 

[Grant]

It seems Wandsworth Council is the first Council to carry out its threat of evicting a tenant for being involved in looting/rioting...

"They are now believed to be the first council tenant in the country to face losing their home over the rioting and looting which blighted the nation this week".

UK riots: council tenant faces losing home over riot suspect son - mirror.co.uk

I know this to be a very contentious issue. That said, after being involved through a residents association for many years in community issues, it's something that i have seen work, for the benefit of the wider community. It often starves the offending persons of their localised Criminal networks.

Paul

That is a very good thing. If these rioters are willing to destroy their neighbour's businesses there is no reason to believe they could not destroy their neighbour's homes as well. It is a good first step in an attempt to bring all of this under greater control.

 

[Higgins86]

what exactly is the point of this thread?