U.S. National Debt Approaches $17 Trillion

[sangha]

But if you are taking out a loan and giving the cash to someone else all you have is the debt, that is what the government does.

OK, so you got the idea that the loan transaction itself is a wash as far as net worth goes. So now you ask how my use of the money affects net worth? The answer is "it depends"

If I take the $50K, and buy a car for $50K, I have merely exchanged an asset (ie cash) worth $50k for another asset (ie the car) worth $50K. Again, a wash. However, over time the car "wears out" which decreases it's value (this is called depreciation). *That* does decrease my net worth.

I had something worth $50K. Now it's worth $40K. My net worth went down $10


If I take $50k I borrowed and buy $50K worth of bonds, I have once again merely exchanged cash for something of equal value. My net value is unchanged.


If I use the money to go to Vegas, and blow the money on gambling, hookers, and cocaine, then I have "consumed" the asset (ie the cash). I have nothing to show for it. I still have the debt (ie liability), but no longer have the cash. My net value goes down.

 

[blaxshep]

OK, so you got the idea that the loan transaction itself is a wash as far as net worth goes. So now you ask how my use of the money affects net worth? The answer is "it depends"

If I take the $50K, and buy a car for $50K, I have merely exchanged an asset (ie cash) worth $50k for another asset (ie the car) worth $50K. Again, a wash. However, over time the car "wears out" which decreases it's value (this is called depreciation). *That* does decrease my net worth.

I had something worth $50K. Now it's worth $40K. My net worth went down $10


If I take $50k I borrowed and buy $50K worth of bonds, I have once again merely exchanged cash for something of equal value. My net value is unchanged.


If I use the money to go to Vegas, and blow the money on gambling, hookers, and cocaine, then I have "consumed" the asset (ie the cash). I have nothing to show for it. I still have the debt (ie liability), but no longer have the cash. My net value goes down.

Correct, but given that the ONLY thing the government does is blow the money on gambling, hookers, and cocaine, for all intents and purposes most all government loans are net deficits.

 

[sangha]

Correct, but given that the ONLY thing the government does is blow the money on gambling, hookers, and cocaine, for all intents and purposes most all government loans are net deficits.

That would be a very perceptive comment, if only it were true.

 

[blaxshep]

That would be a very perceptive comment, if only it were true.

What assets do we get out of the welfare state?

 

[sangha]

What assets do we get out of the welfare state?

Roads, bridges, tunnels, highways, airports, railroads, mass transit, post offices, fire stations, police, internet, military, courts, water, parks, electricity, etc

 

[captainawesome]

We'll discuss that when spending is reduced.

so none.

If you don't want to pay the obligation don't complain there is an outstanding obligation.

 

[Morality Games]

It's not everyone's fault.

The concept behind a democracy is that it is everyone's fault.

 

[Jack Hays]

The concept behind a democracy is that it is everyone's fault.

I don't agree with that.

 

[Morality Games]

I don't agree with that.

Responsibility for an outcome is proportioned to the influence that a person has over it. In short, the amount of power they are capable of exercising.

Hence the source of the adage, "With great power comes great responsibility."

Democracy literally means "Power to the people."

In a democracy, "the people" are the ultimate boss and the ones responsible with providing their country with a future.

 

[blaxshep]

Responsibility for an outcome is proportioned to the influence that a person has over it. In short, the amount of power they are capable of exercising.

Hence the source of the adage, "With great power comes great responsibility."

Democracy literally means "Power to the people."

In a democracy, "the people" are the ultimate boss and the ones responsible with providing their country with a future.

Except that corporations are the only ones enjoying a democracy in America today. The "people" have no voice.

 

[Fenton]

Was it Clinton's fault for the Bush tax cuts; Iraq & Afghanistan and Medicare
parts C and D?

It was Clintons fault for pushing executive orders and appointing Criminals to the GSEs who bought up every crap loan with only 3% down...and NO down.

You know, the blame you put on GW Bush when Obama's pathetic economy is brought up...and his massive new Debt.

It was due to Clintons " regulations ".

 

[pbrauer]

It was Clintons fault for pushing executive orders and appointing Criminals to the GSEs who bought up every crap loan with only 3% down...and NO down.

You know, the blame you put on GW Bush when Obama's pathetic economy is brought up...and his massive new Debt.

It was due to Clintons " regulations ".

LOL

Zero-down mortgage initiative by Bush is hit - The Boston Globe

By Chris Reidy, Globe Staff | October 5, 2004


President Bush's weekend campaign promise that he will push legislation allowing for no money down on some federally insured mortgages could cost taxpayers as much as $500 million over four years because of a higher rate of defaults, according to the Congressional Budget Office.


The election-year idea may appeal to those who can't save as fast as home prices are rising. But some financial planners warn that increasingly common no- and low-down-payment programs can be ruinous for some consumers -- especially if home values decline.


If housing prices fall, consumers with little or no money of their own invested in the home are more vulnerable to ending up with mortgages larger than the value of the house.
​

 

[Kushinator]

Isn't that the previous presidents' fault?

Only if the actual recession and wealth evaporation began during the previous presidents term will it tarnish their legacy.

 

[ecofarm]

Only if the actual recession and wealth evaporation began during the previous presidents term will it tarnish their legacy.

Even if we could calculate economic lag, it's not like a president is more responsible than congress anyway.

 

[Kushinator]

Even if we could calculate economic lag, it's not like a president is more responsible than congress anyway.

That also depends on a plethora of factors. One of the largest contributors to the most recent financial crisis was the legality of adjustable rate commercial loans. Yet this was deregulated in the early 1980's to the support of both the majority of congress and the executive.

 

[ecofarm]

That also depends on a plethora of factors. One of the largest contributors to the most recent financial crisis was the legality of adjustable rate commercial loans. Yet this was deregulated in the early 1980's to the support of both the majority of congress and the executive.

Booooooring; thus, I'm an ecologist first and an economist only as far as my specific research (not the US) demands.

 

[Kushinator]

Booooooring; thus, I'm an ecologist first and an economist only as far as my specific research (not the US) demands.

Ok. What's your point?

 

[ecofarm]

Ok. What's your point?

Determining the extent to which a president is responsible for the economy, including lag, is fruitless and boring.

 

[Morality Games]

Except that corporations are the only ones enjoying a democracy in America today. The "people" have no voice.

That is because of a collective unwillingness to form and support new political organizations, which comes from partisans failing to critically examine their preconceived notions of how reality works as well as a general lack of aggression, energy, and innovation.

It is amazing how systematically incorrect the American people are when it comes to managing a republic. They don't respect any leader who doesn't reflect their neurotic perception of the direction the country should take. They indulge or vilify corruption, not based on merit, but whether a politician has an "R" or "D" in front of their name. There's no real sense of the "republican responsibility" that the Founders stipulated would be necessary for our way of life to survive.

 

[Kushinator]

Determining the extent to which a president is responsible for the economy, including lag, is fruitless and boring.

Say's the ecologist who admittedly has a narrow scope of political economy within the U.S.. Identifying weak administrations, when it comes to economic policy, is not as important as recognizing the garbage they push. Why do you post in a thread for which you have little interest?

 

[blaxshep]

That is because of a collective unwillingness to form and support new political organizations, which comes from partisans failing to critically examine their preconceived notions of how reality works as well as a general lack of aggression, energy, and innovation.

It is amazing how systematically incorrect the American people are when it comes to managing a republic. They don't respect any leader who doesn't reflect their neurotic perception of the direction the country should take. They indulge or vilify corruption, not based on merit, but whether a politician has an "R" or "D" in front of their name. There's no real sense of the "republican responsibility" that the Founders stipulated would be necessary for our way of life to survive.

The only "management" that will return this country to the people will come from the end of a barrel.

 

[Morality Games]

The only "management" that will return this country to the people will come from the end of a barrel.

That's great. Have you tried writing your Congressmen first, though?

That's my main problem with the right-wing side of the gun control debate. They argue that physical violence is necessary to keep a government responsive to the interests of the people when they never seriously tried (or even thought about how to try) managing one according to republican principle.

If you put serious effort into making a society driven by civic responsibility and then the corporate elite bring the hammer down on you, I would say it is time for the next revolution. When you put no effort into at all, I'm surprised you think the American people would even have the stomach for such a war.

Bringing out the guns when people never even reached the conclusion that maybe it is time to stop supporting the two-party duopoly seems premature.

 

[Oceandan]

Reagan tripled the debt, GWB doubled it.

What's more tripling 2, doubling 4, or 9?

 

[pbrauer]

What's more tripling 2, doubling 4, or 9?

Are you correcting for inflation?

 

[Oceandan]

Are you correcting for inflation?

Next you'll tell me it was by percentage of gdp.

Inflation.......hmmmm.....so you're telling me the almost 17 trillion dollars of national debt are all adjusted for inflation???