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U.S. National Debt Approaches $17 Trillion

You took out a loan for $250k, but your debt only increased by $245k because of the $5k in your pocket. When you begin payments on the loan, assuming you incur no additional debt, your debt will decrease which indicates a surplus.

No, the debt increased 250K. Cash on hand doesn't reduce debt unless you actually pay it off to the lender.

Decreasing debt doesn't create a surplus, by itself.

You don't seem to know anything about accounting.
 
No, the debt increased 250K. Cash on hand doesn't reduce debt unless you actually pay it off to the lender.

Decreasing debt doesn't create a surplus, by itself.

You don't seem to know anything about accounting.

You sure spend a lot of time on me considering I don't know anything. :laughat:
 
You took out a loan for $250k, but your debt only increased by $245k because of the $5k in your pocket. When you begin payments on the loan, assuming you incur no additional debt, your debt will decrease which indicates a surplus.

WTF are you talking about? The difference between a household and a government is how we incorporate assets. If i take a loan, only the initial financing costs reduce my net worth. The proceeds of the loan, whether they are used to purchase a home or just sit in my account, act as an asset. The loan itself is a liability.

Any idea how valuate government assets?
 
WTF are you talking about? The difference between a household and a government is how we incorporate assets. If i take a loan, only the initial financing costs reduce my net worth. The proceeds of the loan, whether they are used to purchase a home or just sit in my account, act as an asset. The loan itself is a liability.

Any idea how valuate government assets?

Ridiculous, huh? Government bookkeeping is just as convoluted and that is the point I have been trying to make. They would spend the $5k and claim a surplus plus a paid-down debt while total debt goes up, all at once. You and I do our books just as you described, but government doesn't follow the normal rules. You can borrow and increase your liabilities only up to a certain point. Eventually, you will reach a point where the risk is such that obtaining more loans will be increasingly expensive or impossible. Your only recourse is to pay down your debt or be static.

You asked how to valuate government assets? Good question. Our government has never had its consolidated financial statements audited. We have no way of knowing if the financial statements of the government conform with the same generally accepted accounting principles that they require of business. Look at Enron. It had no cash flow and leveraged itself into insolvency. Government doesn't have that problem because it can be financed on the backs of millions of people. It's also exempt from many laws that are required of others, so they have no fear of consequences.

From a 2005 GAO report:

"As in the seven previous fiscal years, certain material weaknesses in internal control and in selected accounting and financial reporting practices resulted in conditions that continued to prevent us from being able to provide the Congress and American citizens an opinion as to whether the consolidated financial statements of the U.S. government are fairly stated in conformity with U.S. generally accepted accounting principles."

The same report also said that "material weaknesses, fundamental record-keeping and financial reporting, and incomplete documentation had hampered the government's ability to report on assets, liabilities and costs, to measure the cost of financial and non-financial performance, to safeguard assets and record transactions, and to operate in an economical, efficient and effective manner".

Government borrows and spends, the debt goes up every year, unfunded liabilities take the debt to unimagined levels that, without major change, we will never be able to grow our way out of. Then they turn around and have the audacity to claim that for a few years there was a surplus? Even if it were true, it would mean they took more of our money than was required to pay the bills, and they would just spent that, too. The surplus existed on paper, paper with very questionable integrity. The reality is that I can't prove absolutely that there was not a surplus, but the opposite also can't be definitively proven. We just don't know, and that's the real problem.

I still say the surplus is a lie, though. :lol:
 
Ridiculous, huh? Government bookkeeping is just as convoluted and that is the point I have been trying to make. They would spend the $5k and claim a surplus plus a paid-down debt while total debt goes up, all at once. You and I do our books just as you described, but government doesn't follow the normal rules. You can borrow and increase your liabilities only up to a certain point. Eventually, you will reach a point where the risk is such that obtaining more loans will be increasingly expensive or impossible. Your only recourse is to pay down your debt or be static.

You asked how to valuate government assets? Good question. Our government has never had its consolidated financial statements audited. We have no way of knowing if the financial statements of the government conform with the same generally accepted accounting principles that they require of business. Look at Enron. It had no cash flow and leveraged itself into insolvency. Government doesn't have that problem because it can be financed on the backs of millions of people. It's also exempt from many laws that are required of others, so they have no fear of consequences.

From a 2005 GAO report:

"As in the seven previous fiscal years, certain material weaknesses in internal control and in selected accounting and financial reporting practices resulted in conditions that continued to prevent us from being able to provide the Congress and American citizens an opinion as to whether the consolidated financial statements of the U.S. government are fairly stated in conformity with U.S. generally accepted accounting principles."

The same report also said that "material weaknesses, fundamental record-keeping and financial reporting, and incomplete documentation had hampered the government's ability to report on assets, liabilities and costs, to measure the cost of financial and non-financial performance, to safeguard assets and record transactions, and to operate in an economical, efficient and effective manner".

Government borrows and spends, the debt goes up every year, unfunded liabilities take the debt to unimagined levels that, without major change, we will never be able to grow our way out of. Then they turn around and have the audacity to claim that for a few years there was a surplus? Even if it were true, it would mean they took more of our money than was required to pay the bills, and they would just spent that, too. The surplus existed on paper, paper with very questionable integrity. The reality is that I can't prove absolutely that there was not a surplus, but the opposite also can't be definitively proven. We just don't know, and that's the real problem.

I still say the surplus is a lie, though. :lol:

Don't get so hung up on whether or not there was a nominal surplus..... if not, we had no more than a nominal deficit. Either way, we had what was, in essence, a balanced budget and we no longer have that, by a long shot. Our change in circumstance, which is practically irrefutable, is that we went from a managable budget to an out-of-control budget during the last decade.
 
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Ridiculous, huh? Government bookkeeping is just as convoluted and that is the point I have been trying to make. They would spend the $5k and claim a surplus plus a paid-down debt while total debt goes up, all at once. You and I do our books just as you described, but government doesn't follow the normal rules. You can borrow and increase your liabilities only up to a certain point. Eventually, you will reach a point where the risk is such that obtaining more loans will be increasingly expensive or impossible. Your only recourse is to pay down your debt or be static.

It is erroneous to lump together government, business, and household finance all in one. Households and businesses don't have to worry about full employment or overseeing monetary policy.

You asked how to valuate government assets? Good question. Our government has never had its consolidated financial statements audited. We have no way of knowing if the financial statements of the government conform with the same generally accepted accounting principles that they require of business. Look at Enron. It had no cash flow and leveraged itself into insolvency. Government doesn't have that problem because it can be financed on the backs of millions of people. It's also exempt from many laws that are required of others, so they have no fear of consequences.

Government is a perpetual entity. Not only does government derive revenue from taxation, but it also can also print its own currency to pay for any and all expenditures. How much is the Washington monument worth? What about Yellowstone National Park? If we were to appraise the total value of the land, structures, and infrastructure, i am of the impression that the U.S. Government is not even close to balance sheet insolvency.



Government borrows and spends, the debt goes up every year, unfunded liabilities take the debt to unimagined levels that, without major change, we will never be able to grow our way out of.

Opinion noted.

Then they turn around and have the audacity to claim that for a few years there was a surplus?

Even though debt increased (as your following statement hints) they still took in more money than they spent.

Even if it were true, it would mean they took more of our money than was required to pay the bills, and they would just spent that, too. The surplus existed on paper, paper with very questionable integrity. The reality is that I can't prove absolutely that there was not a surplus, but the opposite also can't be definitively proven. We just don't know, and that's the real problem.

First off, a government should not run a budget surplus because it creates an issue of "what to do", which is just another vehicle for partisan bickering. However, if a government does run a surplus, they will have to invest in their own treasuries, or purchase high quality foreign denominations. Or better yet, simply issue more debt to keep the supply of risk free securities flowing. I believe there would have to be legislation created to allow the U.S. government to repurchase debt.

I still say the surplus is a lie, though. :lol:

You would!
 
Don't get so hung up on whether or not there was a nominal surplus..... if not, we had no more than a nominal deficit. Either way, we had what was, in essence, a balanced budget and we no longer have that, by a long shot. Our change in circumstance, which is practically irrefutable, is that we went from a managable budget to an out-of-control budget during the last decade.

I just don't think it would have been any different if Gore were in the big house instead of Bush.
 
It is erroneous to lump together government, business, and household finance all in one. Households and businesses don't have to worry about full employment or overseeing monetary policy.

Government is a perpetual entity. Not only does government derive revenue from taxation, but it also can also print its own currency to pay for any and all expenditures. How much is the Washington monument worth? What about Yellowstone National Park? If we were to appraise the total value of the land, structures, and infrastructure, i am of the impression that the U.S. Government is not even close to balance sheet insolvency.

Opinion noted.

Even though debt increased (as your following statement hints) they still took in more money than they spent.

First off, a government should not run a budget surplus because it creates an issue of "what to do", which is just another vehicle for partisan bickering. However, if a government does run a surplus, they will have to invest in their own treasuries, or purchase high quality foreign denominations. Or better yet, simply issue more debt to keep the supply of risk free securities flowing. I believe there would have to be legislation created to allow the U.S. government to repurchase debt.

You would!

When all is said and done, our positions on this matter are not all that far apart. Plus, it's nice to have a discussion without all the posturing that some other posters seem to thrive on. :thumbs:
 
No... That would factor into the expenditures category.

The irony...

Because expenditures is not just an accounting shell game term for spending. :roll:

No matter what BS terminology you want to apply there is only two numbers money in and money out. All the rest is just made up non-sense designed to obscure the black and white.
 
Because expenditures is not just an accounting shell game term for spending. :roll:

No matter what BS terminology you want to apply there is only two numbers money in and money out. All the rest is just made up non-sense designed to obscure the black and white.

Correct. The U.S. had more money coming in than money going out. This is simply a matter of fact. Issuing debt with a budget surplus only further signifies that point.
 
Correct. The U.S. had more money coming in than money going out. This is simply a matter of fact. Issuing debt with a budget surplus only further signifies that point.

How do you have more coming in then going out and go deeper in debt at the same time?
 
How do you have more coming in then going out and go deeper in debt at the same time?

Just like when a person who has $5,000 a year in savings takes out an additional $50,000 in debt. Considering current interest rates and 30 year repayment period, the additional cost of debt did not cut the previous $5,000 savings into the red.
 
Just like when a person who has $5,000 a year in savings takes out an additional $50,000 in debt. Considering current interest rates and 30 year repayment period, the additional cost of debt did not cut the previous $5,000 savings into the red.

So net worth has nothing to do with the bottom line? To me that person is -$45,000.

That being said and I never really thought about it but what is the US net worth? Do we even know and is any of that included in national debt figures?
 
So net worth has nothing to do with the bottom line? To me that person is -$45,000.

Bad at finance? What happens to the proceeds of the $50,000 loan?

That being said and I never really thought about it but what is the US net worth? Do we even know and is any of that included in national debt figures?

Three charts:

Household net worth (nominal terms)

TNWBSHNO_Max_630_378.png


Household net worth (real)

fredgraph.png


Owners equity (real):

fredgraph.png
 
Bad at finance? What happens to the proceeds of the $50,000 loan?

Are you are talking about the net worth of what ever was purchased?

Yea, I am not a finance guy, I just have a lot of opinions probably founded mostly in ignorance so please explain it to me. Thanks in advance.
 
Are you are talking about the net worth of what ever was purchased?

Yea, I am not a finance guy, I just have a lot of opinions probably founded mostly in ignorance so please explain it to me. Thanks in advance.

When the proceeds of a loan are disbursed, the loan counts as both an asset in the form of cash, and a liability in the form of the present value of the loan. Which means, outside any additional finance costs, its a wash in terms of net worth.

In this scenario, debt increased but a deficit did not occur. I hope this clears things up.
 
When the proceeds of a loan are disbursed, the loan counts as both an asset in the form of cash, and a liability in the form of the present value of the loan. Which means, outside any additional finance costs, its a wash in terms of net worth.

In this scenario, debt increased but a deficit did not occur. I hope this clears things up.

Ok thanks I get it now. It seems a little dishonest if you ask me. The liability should somehow be reflected in the deficit.
 
Ok thanks I get it now. It seems a little dishonest if you ask me. The liability should somehow be reflected in the deficit.

Why? There is an additional category: debt.
 
So net worth has nothing to do with the bottom line? To me that person is -$45,000.

That being said and I never really thought about it but what is the US net worth? Do we even know and is any of that included in national debt figures?

Taking out a loan does not affect net worth. If I take out a $50k loan, I increase my cash by $50K (the money I received from the lender) and I increase my liabilities by $50K (my debt)

It's a wash. It doesn't affect my net worth.
 
Ok thanks I get it now. It seems a little dishonest if you ask me. The liability should somehow be reflected in the deficit.

There's nothing dishonest about it. If I take $50 cash, and purchase a desk, I haven't changed my net worth. All I did was decrease my cash by $50 while increase my assets by $50.

The same goes for a loan. It's just an exchange of equal value - Cash for a note.

Net worth changes when the value of your assets change (stocks you own go up and down, assets wear out (depreciate)), or you exchange your assets for things with a different value (I sell that desk for $60), or you "consume" an asset (the ink cartridge in my printer runs out)
 
Taking out a loan does not affect net worth. If I take out a $50k loan, I increase my cash by $50K (the money I received from the lender) and I increase my liabilities by $50K (my debt)

It's a wash. It doesn't affect my net worth.

But if you are taking out a loan and giving the cash to someone else all you have is the debt, that is what the government does.
 
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