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U.K. Supreme Court Rules Trans Women Can’t Be Defined as Women

That is the legal ruling. The definition of a woman. They are not saying you legally have to use it, except with regards to laws, you do.

Sounds pretty defined... just like an unborn human minutes before birth is not a Person.
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That's where I messed up. I didn't read all four pages, and I see you had already pretty much written the same thing I did just now.

BUT, I think that kid is a kid those minutes before first peeking out into a new environment. "New" to her/him. Just wanted to disagree with you there and then hope I don't get Mod Axed for going off-topic.
 
It is creepy the mere mention of castration clinics. That's one hell of a mutilation. You would think an individual requesting a castration has to trigger calls from others for therapists to intervene; instead he is directed to a castrator! Incredible!
Well they never frame it that way they call it gender-affirming care but it's not. If you stop the puberty of a boy they don't turn into a girl they just never mature. So they'll be at 28-year-old pre pubescent boy.

And the idea that has been admitted to is to get them into this as quickly as possible before they can change their mind.

If there's people that grow up and say "yeah when I was about 12 or 13 years old I felt like I would have been better off being the opposite sex but then through growing up and learning how to accept myself I learned that it was probably best just to let things happen the way they naturally do." It will undermine the idea that you're born this way and you can't change it. I don't think it necessarily will because they're always have been people that no matter what they did it was never going to click with them and they have wound up being transsexuals. But they had the time to deal with it and grow up and understand that this is the best for them. I bet if we take that approach there would be a lot less opposition to it.
 
That's where I messed up. I didn't read all four pages, and I see you had already pretty much written the same thing I did just now.

BUT, I think that kid is a kid those minutes before first peeking out into a new environment. "New" to her/him. Just wanted to disagree with you there and then hope I don't get Mod Axed for going off-topic.

I think it is a kid, child and baby before it is born, just not a person.


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I am not reduced to insults. I have great and fantastic insults. People say, "Helix, your insults are the best insults. You should do that for a living." Maybe I will.

Funny about this one, as I figured out some years ago that some of the finest insults are the ones you typed or spoke and you didn't/don't know was/is an insult until hours, days, months, even years later.

And sorry I can't get that grammar correct up there. Better set aside the green tea and work on some breakfast.
 
This is common sense. Hopefully we catch up to them.
 
I think it is a kid, child and baby before it is born, just not a person.
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Uh oh! You got me on this. I really do need my breakfast. That one will take me all day to figure out.
 
Uh oh! You got me on this. I really do need my breakfast. That one will take me all day to figure out.

Are you in Asia, or something? Perth?
 
Funny about this one, as I figured out some years ago that some of the finest insults are the ones you typed or spoke and you didn't/don't know was/is an insult until hours, days, months, even years later.

And sorry I can't get that grammar correct up there. Better set aside the green tea and work on some breakfast.
I do try to stay on top of my insults.
 
Are you in Asia, or something? Perth?
Kanto area, which is what is called Tokyo-to, not inside the city of Tokyo itself. Live way out west in and near the mountains. Kind of sad, though, I am no longer medically able to go about higher than 500 above sea level, so most mountains are now off-limits. It is called dislocation of the chain in my right ear and in the flight physical some years ago when they spotted that trouble I also got grounded and all license authorizations by FAA and a few other agencies revoked. But it is still okay for me to go up to the top of Takao-san [mountain] and that one isn't too far from this residence.

Long answer to why my breakfast time is now, yep? Have to keep up that old-fart yak-yak-yak --- long posts style. Drives the folks that use them Star Trek phones crazy when I do loooooong posts.
 
Kanto area, which is what is called Tokyo-to, not inside the city of Tokyo itself. Live way out west in and near the mountains. Kind of sad, though, I am no longer medically able to go about higher than 500 above sea level, so most mountains are now off-limits. It is called dislocation of the chain in my right ear and in the flight physical some years ago when they spotted that trouble I also got grounded and all license authorizations by FAA and a few other agencies revoked. But it is still okay for me to go up to the top of Takao-san [mountain] and that one isn't too far from this residence.

Long answer to why my breakfast time is now, yep? Have to keep up that old-fart yak-yak-yak --- long posts style. Drives the folks that use them Star Trek phones crazy when I do loooooong posts.

Since most of the board is in the USA or Europe, I am generally the earliest one up, in New Zealand. There are a couple of Aussies and a guy from Singapore... but not many past me. LOL.

Were you military?
 
Since most of the board is in the USA or Europe, I am generally the earliest one up, in New Zealand. There are a couple of Aussies and a guy from Singapore... but not many past me. LOL.

Were you military?

Yes, military, Government Schedules, and allowed to work for two other governments; well one other until that general fella pulled off that coup and got really pissed off at me and forced me over to Japan. Now I am glad he did, because I learned a second racism lesson by what he did to me and the U.S. government. Kind of have to thank President Carter too for something he did to set it all up. A rather long story that few know.

And then working in Kasumigaseki for the Japanese government was some serious education.

By the way, back in the early 80s I spent some quality time in both the ROK and Japan with a fella from your country. He is the one that taught me not to pronounce it New Z'ee'land. Corresponded with his mom a few times, too. Seemed like a good family. Got him some employment in the ROK to help him with his funds for more traveling.
 
Can't read the article as the publication requires a membership. I am interested in it if you have another article talking about the subject.
I was able to access using the "Thru Your Institution" link and it is a 13-minute read. But I'm not sure what I am authorized to do here? I mean, maybe just copy a paragraph or two of the most substantive parts?

You got ten plus more years of membership here, CLAX1911, --- ten plus more years than I; any advice? I don't mind copying the whole article here, if it is legal.

BUT, this is super interesting and I obviously knew nothing about this and so I am going to stick my neck out and post a copy of just this bit:

That the two sexes are physically different is obvious, but at the start of life, it is not. Five weeks into development, a human embryo has the potential to form both male and female anatomy. Next to the developing kidneys, two bulges known as the gonadal ridges emerge alongside two pairs of ducts, one of which can form the uterus and Fallopian tubes, and the other the male internal genital plumbing: the epididymes, vas deferentia and seminal vesicles. At six weeks, the gonad switches on the developmental pathway to become an ovary or a testis. If a testis develops, it secretes testosterone, which supports the development of the male ducts. It also makes other hormones that force the presumptive uterus and Fallopian tubes to shrink away. If the gonad becomes an ovary, it makes oestrogen, and the lack of testosterone causes the male plumbing to wither. The sex hormones also dictate the development of the external genitalia, and they come into play once more at puberty, triggering the development of secondary sexual characteristics such as breasts or facial hair.
 
I was able to access using the "Thru Your Institution" link and it is a 13-minute read. But I'm not sure what I am authorized to do here? I mean, maybe just copy a paragraph or two of the most substantive parts?

You got ten plus more years of membership here, CLAX1911, --- ten plus more years than I; any advice? I don't mind copying the whole article here, if it is legal.

BUT, this is super interesting and I obviously knew nothing about this and so I am going to stick my neck out and post a copy of just this bit:
Thank you.
 
I actually thought of the UK as being worse than America in this regard because America sort of takes the whole women’s bathroom as something thats just always been the case instead of a women’s sex based right.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Could you rewrite this please?

Secondly the reason trans women prisoners were moved to women’s prisons was because of prison rape culture and v-coding where trans women would be fed to the most violent prisoners in men’s prisons to satiate them, aka rape.

This quite possibly happened in the past here in the UK but going the other way and putting someone into a women's prison while they still have male genitalia is just as bad.

And I work with pro LGBT people on Mars.

Sarcasm isn't your strong point.

Stop lying about openly LGBT people in Muslim countries.

This may be the world you want to exist but it's not the one that does.

You've probably never even lived outside the USA.
 
A gay man is a male who is attracted to other males. What is your definition of a homosexual man?

Can a female who is attracted to males be a gay man? I'm referring to a transman.
 
Can a female who is attracted to males be a gay man? I'm referring to a transman.



Good question. The answer will have to be "yes". Anything else will mean a transman different from a man.
 
Nobody is surprised by this ruling from TERF island.

BTW, biological sex isn't binary.

Biological sex is binary, unless you can name me a third gamete.
 
For what it's worth (and getting back to the thread topic), I disagree with the court's ruling.

The court was deciding whether the reference to women in the Equalities Act includes transwoman who have a Gender Recognition Certificate (which allows you to change your gender on official documents).
I think if you have changed your gender on legal documents, then you should be regarded as a woman for legal purposes.

Obviously it's important that males can't just self-identity as women and make themselves eligible, for example, to public positions that are designed to increase female representation in the respective area.
 
Biological sex is binary, unless you can name me a third gamete.

I think there may just be some third thingy involved, BUT --- and that is a BIG BUT --- I am only referring to that article that bomberfox posted the link for and . . . well, I know zip-zero-nothing about all this medical stuff and I'm not even sure I care. But it seems proper to offer up the writings from some folks that seem to know this stuff and also seem to care.

And it might be okay to copy parts of that article as warranted to aid the discussion, so this is a section that is just before sections titled "Cellular sex" and "Beyond the binary" and here goes:

Battle of the sexes

According to some scientists, that balance can shift long after development is over. Studies in mice suggest that the gonad teeters between being male and female throughout life, its identity requiring constant maintenance. In 2009, researchers reported deactivating an ovarian gene called Foxl2 in adult female mice; they found that the granulosa cells that support the development of eggs transformed into Sertoli cells, which support sperm development. Two years later, a separate team showed the opposite: that inactivating a gene called Dmrt1 could turn adult testicular cells into ovarian ones. “That was the big shock, the fact that it was going on post-natally,” says Vincent Harley, a geneticist who studies gonad development at the MIMR-PHI Institute for Medical Research in Melbourne.

The gonad is not the only source of diversity in sex. A number of DSDs are caused by changes in the machinery that responds to hormonal signals from the gonads and other glands. Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome, or CAIS, for example, arises when a person's cells are deaf to male sex hormones, usually because the receptors that respond to the hormones are not working. People with CAIS have Y chromosomes and internal testes, but their external genitalia are female, and they develop as females at puberty.

Conditions such as these meet the medical definition of DSDs, in which an individual's anatomical sex seems to be at odds with their chromosomal or gonadal sex. But they are rare—affecting about 1 in 4,500 people. Some researchers now say that the definition should be widened to include subtle variations of anatomy such as mild hypospadias, in which a man's urethral opening is on the underside of his penis rather than at the tip. The most inclusive definitions point to the figure of 1 in 100 people having some form of DSD, says Vilain.

But beyond this, there could be even more variation. Since the 1990s, researchers have identified more than 25 genes involved in DSDs, and next-generation DNA sequencing in the past few years has uncovered a wide range of variations in these genes that have mild effects on individuals, rather than causing DSDs. “Biologically, it's a spectrum,” says Vilain.

A DSD called congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), for example, causes the body to produce excessive amounts of male sex hormones; XX individuals with this condition are born with ambiguous genitalia (an enlarged clitoris and fused labia that resemble a scrotum). It is usually caused by a severe deficiency in an enzyme called 21-hydroxylase. But women carrying mutations that result in a milder deficiency develop a 'non-classical' form of CAH, which affects about 1 in 1,000 individuals; they may have male-like facial and body hair, irregular periods or fertility problems—or they might have no obvious symptoms at all. Another gene, NR5A1, is currently fascinating researchers because variations in it cause a wide range of effects, from underdeveloped gonads to mild hypospadias in men, and premature menopause in women.

Many people never discover their condition unless they seek help for infertility, or discover it through some other brush with medicine. Last year, for example, surgeons reported that they had been operating on a hernia in a man, when they discovered that he had a womb. The man was 70, and had fathered four children.

Please remember, all, I am just trying to help and have no sides in any pro-con type argument any of y'all may be into. Kind of like doing a duty here.
 
Okay, I erred on one point; the definition of "DSD" wasn't shown in either of the two posts where I copied some of that article, so here it is, from the article:

... known as intersex conditions, or differences or disorders of sex development (DSDs) ...
 
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