Trump pledges to make it easier for seasonal farmworkers to enter U.S.

[Todzilla]

Translation: Come do our dirty work for peanuts, then get the hell out.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Why should (only?) US farmers be granted permission to use low wage, third world "guest" labor when "job creators" in many US industries would profit (handsomely?) from doing the same thing? After all, there are currently many jobs that US citizens will not do for the same wages/benefits that "guest" workers from third world nations will accept.

Because a higher percentage of "farmers" vote for Mr. Trump than the percentage of "job creators" that vote from Mr. Trump?

What you have to remember is that those jobs are **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N** job and only **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N** people should have them. If the **F*O*R*E*I*G*N*E*R*S** don't like it, then they can go back to where they came from and that will open up Maybe A Great Amount of **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N** jobs for **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N** people.

Right?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Whuh....

Okay, pretend I'm stupid. And if you don't need to pretend, even better. How is allowing illegal immigrants to provide cheap labor even remotely in line with the current Republican position on illegal immigrants taking American jobs?

Wrong question.

The correct question is

How is Mr. Trump promising people things just so that they will vote to re-elect him and then telling other people the exact opposite just so that they will vote to re-elect him something that would surprise anyone with more "civic awareness" than a tree stump?"
​

Besides when Mr. Trump said that those illegals were "taking American jobs" he didn't mean that they were "taking American jobs" he meant that they were "taking GOOD American jobs". There is absolutely no way that Mr. Trump is going to be promising the people who he wants to vote to re-elect him that he is going to preserve CRAPPY jobs for them.

You do realize that Mr. Trump has already been successful in many areas. For example, he has cleared 100% of all illegal immigrants out of the Presidency and Cabinet, he has also cleared 100% of all illegal immigrants out of the Senate, House of Representatives, and Judiciary, he has also cleared 100% of all illegal immigrants out of the CEO positions of the 10,000 largest corporations in America.

Surely you didn't expect him to start at the bottom and work upwards, did you?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Ignoring your comments since they really don’t add anything to the discussion.

I would support a legal way for seasonal workers to enter the US. It would need to be controlled and limited, but it would be preferable to the illegal immigration situation we have now.

OK. Here is "A Modest Proposal" that is a simple and effective, way of accomplishing that.

Simply attach an non-removable (except by authorized means) collar to every "guest worker's" neck. That collar will contain a timing device, an audio device, and an explosive device. At about one week prior to the expiry of the time that the "guest worker' is permitted to be in the United States of America, the audio device will be activated and announce (quite loudly) "Your permitted time to be in the United States of America will expire in __[fill in the blank]__ days and __[fill in the blank]__ hours. Report to the nearest CBP location at __[fill in the blank]__ to return to __[fill in the blank]__ after this collar has been removed.". At exactly 10 minutes after the time that your permitted stay in the US ends, this device will explode and cut off your head." (this announcement will be repeated every hour for two days, every 10 minutes for two days, every minute for two days, and continuously for one day). Unless the collar has been removed and deactivated, it will explode and the shaped charge it contains will cut off the (now) "illegal's" head.
​

As I said, a simple 100% effective means of ensuring that "guest workers" do not become "illegal immigrants".

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Then why not mandate higher wages for American workers?

Possibly because that would have an adverse effect on the amount of "campaign contributions" received by anyone who supported such a left-wing, liberal, socialist, pinko, commie, idea?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Back in the day where I grew up we had a Bracero program. The state/fed built housing and provided banking services and transportation for seasonal workers. The program worked fine. Then around the mid '60's the program went pretty much inactive because they had no need to go back I guess. Many moved into other areas of the US workforce. Then other illegal seasonal workers came in to replace them.

There is a system in place that can be modernized and up graded. Today a lot of it has been replace by H1B's - basically workers being used to replace American workers to save on wages. You don't read about that much, but the bitching about field workers already has a solution - the H1 temporary visa system.

They all are there for one reason - to let Americans pay low prices by the use of below market labor*. The outrage should be directed to the government for being afraid to pay market wages for field work - you know "Equal pay for equal work". Bull. We are basically exploiting Mexico's poor. It's only marginally different than Russia "hiring" North Korean conscripts. We need farm labor because American's are too civilized to be involved in their own food supply.

*market labor is citizen labor issued properly taxed paychecks. How can anyone be against this?

If the average wage in "Country M" is $2.00/hr and the average wage in "Country A" is $17.00/hr. Is a worker from "Country M" who comes to "Country A" for a set period of time (before returning to "Country M" with most of their wages intact) and who earns $10.00/hr (from which their employer deducts $2.00/hr for room and board) being "exploited"?

If the average wage in "Country B" is $2.00/hr (with a cost of living accordingly) and an employer from "Country A" (where the average wage is $17.00/hr) sets up a factory in "Country B" and pays the workers $4.00/hr, is the "Country A" employer "exploiting" the workers of "Country B"?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I think what that effectively does is end the cheap labor party for the beneficiaries; it's what's kept American workers from competing with wages that are well below MW. Reforming this will prove difficult for some industries where cheap labor can sometimes be what's keeping them afloat.

Have no fear, the US government will establish "price stabilization" programs so that those producers who cannot sell their products for enough to cover the "cost of production" will receive "government money" to make up the difference.

PLEASE NOTE - "Price Stabilization" and "subsidization" are NOT the same thing - only other countries "subsidize" industries. The United States of America NEVER "subsidizes" industries because that would be **S*O*C*I*A*L*I*S*T**.

Spoiler

Now eat your cookies (made with "price stabilized" wheat), drink your ("price stabilized") milk and go to bed like a good little boy. I'll be up in a little while to read you the next chapter of "Why 'The Trail of Tears' and the 'Bataan Death March' Have Absolutely Nothing In Common".

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

You did not answer my question at all yet decided to reply with quote to that post. Your first bolded above situation may be the result of your second bolded above.

Sometimes you have to accept the pay/benefit offer of an employer to get/keep a job. When I became tired of doing that, I became a self-employed handyman.

Whenever I see terms like "self-employed handyman" I silently pray the the people the terms are attached to never bet audited by the IRS.

When I was a sole proprietor, I paid around $1,500/month just to ensure that I had the best accounting and tax advice available. Doing that resulted in my "real" rate of taxation being reduced to around 5% (on a gross income over $150,000). It also enabled me to obtain a refund of over $14,000 when I shut up shop (making my "real" rate of taxation for my last three years in business in the neighbourhood of 3.1%).

You get the "tax/accounting advice" that you pay for, and paying for good tax/accounting advice is (as Mr. Trump would say) "Smart."

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

And you don't see the difference between a controlled and monitored entry and a mass illegall border crossing? This topic has been a issue of discussion on immigration reform agendas for years. But, it's Trump, right?

Anyone who enters the US and then applies for "asylum" or for "refugee status" within the statutorily mandated period has NOT crossed the border illegally.

Over 50% of the "illegals" in the US actually entered the country legally. They just stayed past the expiry date of their permission to be in the US. They did not "swarm across the border".

Of course I can see the difference between a controlled and monitored entry and a mass illegal border crossing. Anyone with half a brain can do that.

Not only I can see the difference between a controlled and monitored entry and a mass illegal border crossing but I can also see the difference between a solution that has a reasonable chance of working in very short order (provided that the people who are financially benefiting from the current "crisis" can be persuaded to allow it to work at all) and one that probably won't work even if it is completed in the 15 to 20 years that it will take to complete it and will almost certainly cost a whole lot more than the people who are pushing it as a solution that will work **I*M*M*E*D*I*A*T*E*L*Y** are telling you it will cost.

Can you?

If you assume that Mr. Trump's wall has a foundation that is 3'x3' in cross section (and that's being conservative) then tapers from 2' at the base to 1' at the peak while being 30' high (that's a cross sectional area of 54 SqFt [or 2 SqYd]). And if you assume that Mr. Trump's wall is only 1,000 miles long, how many cubic yards of concrete will it require?

Spoiler

3,520,000 and that works out to around 352,000, cement trucks worth of concrete. Did you now that there are around 4,360,000 yards of concrete in the Hoover dam and that it took five years to build the Hoover dam (and there wasn't any "issue" over property ownership to delay matters).

 

[What if...?]

Whuh....

Okay, pretend I'm stupid. And if you don't need to pretend, even better. How is allowing illegal immigrants to provide cheap labor even remotely in line with the current Republican position on illegal immigrants taking American jobs?

This would be the first sign of kowtowing to the donors that have kept employer sanctions off the table all these years.

Donors don't want employers sanctioned or they would have been already.

So a bone to farm country donors/voters to ease the pain of losing their cheap labor?

Still don't think they're gonna let congress cut the supply off.

 

[Bullseye]

Anyone who enters the US and then applies for "asylum" or for "refugee status" within the statutorily mandated period has NOT crossed the border illegally.

Over 50% of the "illegals" in the US actually entered the country legally. They just stayed past the expiry date of their permission to be in the US. They did not "swarm across the border".

Of course I can see the difference between a controlled and monitored entry and a mass illegal border crossing. Anyone with half a brain can do that.

The procedure is to apply for asylum at an official port of entry not to sneak across and only start screaming "asylum" when they are captured.

Not only I can see the difference between a controlled and monitored entry and a mass illegal border crossing but I can also see the difference between a solution that has a reasonable chance of working in very short order (provided that the people who are financially benefiting from the current "crisis" can be persuaded to allow it to work at all) and one that probably won't work even if it is completed in the 15 to 20 years that it will take to complete it and will almost certainly cost a whole lot more than the people who are pushing it as a solution that will work **I*M*M*E*D*I*A*T*E*L*Y** are telling you it will cost.

Can you?

And your solution is?

If you assume that Mr. Trump's wall has a foundation that is 3'x3' in cross section (and that's being conservative) then tapers from 2' at the base to 1' at the peak while being 30' high (that's a cross sectional area of 54 SqFt [or 2 SqYd]). And if you assume that Mr. Trump's wall is only 1,000 miles long, how many cubic yards of concrete will it require?

Spoiler

3,520,000 and that works out to around 352,000, cement trucks worth of concrete. Did you now that there are around 4,360,000 yards of concrete in the Hoover dam and that it took five years to build the Hoover dam (and there wasn't any "issue" over property ownership to delay matters).

Congratulations - your calculator works. You know Hoover Dam was built using 1930's technology, right? And there was a couple of details that the wall won't have to deal will, a 500 ft canyon and the Colorado river.

 

[What if...?]

it's not, the people that are stupid are Republican voters, because Republicans always say one thing to them, then do another. They have been playing the illegals lines for decades now, and never do a damn thing in power. republicans suck corporate D so they want the cheap labor for the corporations, while selling the hateful, idiot crowd that illegals are the cause of all their problems (while the republicans F them in the A while they are distracted)

My favorite is Orrin Hatch trying to have the employer sanctions removed from Reagan's amnesty right after it passed.

Employers are the 20 million person gorilla in the room nobody talks about

Not even an unkind word.

Think about this silence all these decades, conservatives. This other side of this issue your guys never utter more than a peep about. Before doing exactly nothing.

(I know you aren't a conservative, I just thought it needed to be said as many times as possible.)

 

[Individual]

Then why not mandate higher wages for American workers?

Higher prices for consumers?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Higher prices for consumers?

But higher prices means an increase in the GDP (so do higher wages) so that's a "Good Thing" isn't it?

Why if everyone got together and doubled both wages and prices then the American GDP would shoot up by around 400% and China would never catch up - right?

 

[Hedgology]

But higher prices means an increase in the GDP (so do higher wages) so that's a "Good Thing" isn't it?

Unless you're talking about nominal GDP (which almost no one cares about), GDP is adjusted for changes in price.

Why if everyone got together and doubled both wages and prices then the American GDP would shoot up by around 400% and China would never catch up - right?

Unclear what you are trying to say....

 

[Deuce]

OK. Here is "A Modest Proposal" that is a simple and effective, way of accomplishing that.

Simply attach an non-removable (except by authorized means) collar to every "guest worker's" neck. That collar will contain a timing device, an audio device, and an explosive device. At about one week prior to the expiry of the time that the "guest worker' is permitted to be in the United States of America, the audio device will be activated and announce (quite loudly) "Your permitted time to be in the United States of America will expire in __[fill in the blank]__ days and __[fill in the blank]__ hours. Report to the nearest CBP location at __[fill in the blank]__ to return to __[fill in the blank]__ after this collar has been removed.". At exactly 10 minutes after the time that your permitted stay in the US ends, this device will explode and cut off your head." (this announcement will be repeated every hour for two days, every 10 minutes for two days, every minute for two days, and continuously for one day). Unless the collar has been removed and deactivated, it will explode and the shaped charge it contains will cut off the (now) "illegal's" head.
​

As I said, a simple 100% effective means of ensuring that "guest workers" do not become "illegal immigrants".

Trump supporters will unironically agree with this plan.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Trump supporters will unironically agree with this plan.

And 90+% of them won't recognize what the link is.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

From United Press International

Trump pledges to make it easier for seasonal farmworkers to enter U.S.
​

Jan. 14 (UPI) -- President Donald Trump said he will allow seasonal farmworkers to easily enter the country at the American Farm Bureau Federation's 100th annual convention in New Orleans.

Trump promised to pursue changes in immigration laws that will "actually make it easier for them to help the farmers because you need these people," while also referring to current U.S. immigration policy as "sick" and "demented" and to make a case for a border wall.

"A lot of people don't understand this. You need people to help you with the farms. I'm not going to rule that out," Trump said.

Trump's speech came on the 24th day of a government shutdown that has centered around an impasse between congressional Democrats and the president regarding his request for $5.7 billion to construct a barrier at the U.S.-Mexico border.

COMMENTS:-

1. This man has to be STOPPED. Those are **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N** jobs in **A*M*E*R*I*C*A** and any **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N** patriot would be seeing that they were filled by **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N*S**.
   
   On the other hand, maybe he's being really smart and he is going to prevent those **F*O*R*E*I*G*N*E*R*S** from taking their **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N** money out of **A*M*E*R*I*C*A** when they GO BACK WHERE THEY CAME FROM. That would give him the money he needs to build "The Great **A*M*E*R*I*C*A*N** Wall" and those **F*O*R*E*I*G*N*E*R*S** would pay for it.
   
   [Sarcasm Rating 95/100]
2. Saying one thing and doing another as usual?
   
   [Sarcasm Rating 5/100]

​

Yeah sure, he "says" stuff like this ALL the TIME and nothing ever comes of it because none of it ever reaches Congress.
For instance, last summer he "said" that he would expand the Veterans Caregiver Program to include ALL fully service connected disabled veterans regardless of when they served, thus family who are their full time caregivers would be eligible to receive a stipend.

It was all talk, nothing of the kind had been referred to either chamber in Congress. It was just a Trump "talking point" and nothing more. The Veterans Caregiver Program stipends remain exclusively available to full time family caregivers of 100% service connected disabled veterans who served on or after 9/11 only. And it looks like it will remain that way.
That piece of advice came to me directly from the PVA officer at the VA.

Trump promises all kinds of things, and it's all lies.

 

[Individual]

But higher prices means an increase in the GDP (so do higher wages) so that's a "Good Thing" isn't it?

Why if everyone got together and doubled both wages and prices then the American GDP would shoot up by around 400% and China would never catch up - right?

I believe the target is about 2% average inflation per year, so if you're around in 2054 wages and prices will likely have doubled relative to what they are today.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I believe the target is about 2% average inflation per year, so if you're around in 2054 wages and prices will likely have doubled relative to what they are today.

Actually the correct phrase would be "doubled in dollar terms relative to what they are today".

If BOTH wages and prices double from the base year levels, then the RELATIVE change from the base year levels is nil.

But don't let that bother you, "statistical cherry picking" is the one branch of agriculture that NEVER goes into a slump.

PS - Congratulations on knowing "The Rule of 72" and I'm not going to get picky about the difference between 2054 and 2055.

 

[Individual]

Actually the correct phrase would be "doubled in dollar terms relative to what they are today".

If BOTH wages and prices double from the base year levels, then the RELATIVE change from the base year levels is nil.

But don't let that bother you, "statistical cherry picking" is the one branch of agriculture that NEVER goes into a slump.

PS - Congratulations on knowing "The Rule of 72" and I'm not going to get picky about the difference between 2054 and 2055.

Except for the fact that we're talking about doubling of averages, inflation being a weighted average.

 

[sangha]

Whuh....

Okay, pretend I'm stupid. And if you don't need to pretend, even better. How is allowing illegal immigrants to provide cheap labor even remotely in line with the current Republican position on illegal immigrants taking American jobs?

Seasonal workers come here on a Visa, so they are not coming here illegally

But since most of the immigrants who are here illegally come here on visas that are temporary and then just stay, right wingers will contort themselves in ways that qualify them for Cirque De Soleil in order to defend Trump

 

[sangha]

Those industries have a lot of lobbying power, too. I'm actually curious if it's even possible to enact a regulated migrant worker program.

It is possible to have a regulated migrant worker program. We used to have one called Braceros. The problem is it is not practical to ensure they do not slip off and stay past the expiration of their visa, which is how many of those currently in the US illegally came here....on temporary visas of one sort or another

 

[Helix]

It is possible to have a regulated migrant worker program. We used to have one called Braceros. The problem is it is not practical to ensure they do not slip off and stay past the expiration of their visa, which is how many of those currently in the US illegally came here....on temporary visas of one sort or another

i grew up in a town in which the population increased significantly during harvest season. a migrant worker program is doable.

 

[sangha]

i grew up in a town in which the population increased significantly during harvest season. a migrant worker program is doable.

no doubt. But I have little doubt some will overstay their work visas