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Trump Launches War On Iran

Chomsky said:
You know, whether I agree or not with you, your points are often unassailable.

I think Trump got lucky, this time. Though he did have the good sense, or fear, to realize the Iranian missile attack - without him responding - was the allowed end-game to hopefully cease hostilities.
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While I have leaned towards US contributing to Israel's effort, I have also noted that it's rather difficult to have a strong opinion when one is not privy to the actual intelligence their actions are based on - after all, it is possible that Bebe is as much a victim of hawkish groupthink in Israel as George Bush was regarding Iraqi WMD allegations.

I just keep noting certain habits of mind (indecision) that often precede "the worst of both worlds" decision making.

You would think leaders would know what they will do in a crisis, before the crisis, yet Doug Mccarther was unable to act decisively in the Philippines after Pearl Harbor (twice), Hitler and his repeated postponements of the Kursk offensive, Biden's uncertainty early in the Ukraine war that caused his "redlines" that were forever breached and shifting, the Anzio landing and Mark Clark's half measures, Eisenhower and Bradley's Falsie gap hesitations, etc. All these were foreseeable yet somehow none chose to think out what if's beforehand.

Now, decisive leaders who have a concrete vision can cause huge blunders as well, but they are likely rewarded more often than the wafflers and short sighted . Mccarther's greatest victory and worst misjudgment in Korea were both due to his decisive over confidence, the first being Inchon and the second the failure to listen to China's warnings and his own intelligence services.

Compare Trump to Nixon. Nixon always had a firm view of his global strategy, all of which led to his successfully warning off Russia from attacking China's nuke sites, playing the Chinese and Russians off against each other, and in immediately, without limits, releasing deep stockpiles of equipment for Israel in the 73 war, and unhesitatingly unleashing B52s when NV walked away from the table - which led them back.

Trump doesn't have a strategy; he just has wishes. He wishes Iran would accept a peace treaty, but he has no idea if that is really necessary or what it is worth to get it.
 
Sandy Shanks said:
NBC reports, "Hailing the American strikes on Iran as a success, President Donald Trump said late Saturday that the Islamic Republic’s key nuclear sites were “completely and fully obliterated.”

"But despite his bullish claims, the extent of the damage to the deeply buried facility at Fordo, as well as sites at Isfahan and Natanz, is unclear and almost 400 kilograms, or 880 pounds, of uranium enriched to 60% are publicly unaccounted for. Power plants require the radioactive metal to be enriched to only 3%-5%, whereas 90% is required to build a nuclear warhead.

"Jeffrey Lewis, an American expert in nuclear nonproliferation and a professor at the California-based James Martin Center for Nonproliferation Studies, said on X that he was “unimpressed” by both the U.S. and Israeli strikes on Iran because they “failed to target significant elements of Iran’s nuclear materials and production infrastructure.”

"Iran’s highly enriched uranium “was largely stored in underground tunnels” near the Isfahan site, he said. But despite extensive American and Israeli attacks on the facility, he said, “there does not seem to have been any effort to destroy these tunnels or the material that was in them.”
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This is why Trump should never have gotten involved in this.

Israel was seemingly doing a reasonable job doing our dirty work for us. From reports I've seen, Israel eliminated approximately 75% of Iran's program, and set it back 3-4 years.

That was far from perfect, but a good pause and safety cushion, from which to restart talks and get inspectors in.
 
CLAX1911 said:
I'm curious as to this 400 kg of enriched uranium missing who reported this?

His opinion is noted.

How does he know better than the military where the uranium is stored?
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Go and ask the aytollah.
 
CLAX1911 said:
So your consulting the ministry of Truth on how factual fires at NPR are so the lawyers at NPR pay the idiots at the ministry of Truth to give them a good score or they own it.

ABC is a Disney property that's like trusting RJ Reynolds on whether or not cigarettes give you cancer.

I skimmed through the trash Disney article and they're just posting gossip from X. This is why they needed to create a separate wing of their own company and call it a fact checker because they just report on gossip from X.
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I'm not going looking for a third source disputing your assertion, CLAX1911, even though there's an abundance from a quick Google.

Let's see your sources backing-up your assertion that Fordow has been fully destroyed, and the nuclear materials have been destroyed.

BTW - While were at it, what were the metrics defining mission success? So we can make sure we're operating on the same page?
 
Chomsky said:
I'm not going looking for a third source disputing your assertion, CLAX1911, even though there's an abundance from a quick Google.
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So far you've posted two propaganda sites that are reporting on gossip.
Chomsky said:
Let's see your sources backing-up your assertion that Fordow has been fully destroyed, and the nuclear materials have been destroyed.
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Did I claim that it was? Why would I give you sources on something I didn't claim? I'm just trying to determine if there is any validity or your claims and it doesn't seem that there is Twitter gossip.

I'm not making a counterclaim I'm just expressing skepticism in yours.
Chomsky said:
BTW - While were at it, what were the metrics defining mission success? So we can make sure we're operating on the same page?
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Why would you ask me this?
 
Chomsky said:
Oh, I agree.

But if Trump surgically bombs, seemingly ending both the ongoing nuke program and ongoing hostilities, why would he not be looked upon kindly?
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Neither the hostilities nor the nuke program have ceased.
 
Chomsky said:
Oh, I agree.

But if Trump surgically bombs, seemingly ending both the ongoing nuke program and ongoing hostilities, why would he not be looked upon kindly?
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We shall see as the Devil is in the details of inspections. IAEA needs to be a fixture in Iran conducting inspections for many decades.
 
Chomsky said:
I'm not going looking for a third source disputing your assertion, CLAX1911, even though there's an abundance from a quick Google.

Let's see your sources backing-up your assertion that Fordow has been fully destroyed, and the nuclear materials have been destroyed.

BTW - While were at it, what were the metrics defining mission success? So we can make sure we're operating on the same page?
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His source is Donald declaring that it was fully destroyed.

This is a fairly simple process.

1. Donald issues the talking points.

2. @CLAX1911 repeats the talking points.

That's it! It's quite simple.
 
Chomsky said:
He finished the Israeli job in a surgical manner, quickly and with no loss of life or equipment, ending the hostilities, and leaving the region nuclear-development-free.

There of course are many detractors such as myself. But if peace indeed occurs, I think looking back in time Trump will get good regards.
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Nuke free has not been proven
 
eohrnberger said:
More so what the Iranian populace, especially their youth do.
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They are a known entity, but since the Arab Spring - and that is some 15 years ago now, not so much movement. So I have to say they are going to privately balk about regime change and not do much of anything to actually change it.
 
CLAX1911 said:
So far you've posted two propaganda sites that are reporting on gossip.

Did I claim that it was? Why would I give you sources on something I didn't claim? I'm just trying to determine if there is any validity or your claims and it doesn't seem that there is Twitter gossip.
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CLAX1911 said:
I'm not making a counterclaim I'm just expressing skepticism in yours.
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CLAX1911 said:
Why would you ask me this?
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Uh, actually it was you appearing to be claiming "Fordow destruction" in your post to which I first replied.

I replied with,

"We really don't know"

And that's been the point of dispute since then, including my providing multiple high quality sources, which apparently you don't like.

Here's my post:

Chomsky said:
They're bad actors, no doubt.

But whether we needed to send in our military after Israel's excellent success, is highly debatable. Especially, given we don't know if our attack accomplished its purpose.
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Here's your response:

CLAX1911 said:
Opinion noted

Why?

When did Israel take out their nuclear enrichment facilities?
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I've been replying to the bolded, by stating,

"We don't really know"

So, what are your metrics defining "take-out".

And, what are your sources in support?
 
CLAX1911 said:
When did I claim it was fully destroyed?

Just misrepresent everything that questions your narrative?
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Oh, now you’re claiming that Donald lied to the American people?

Which is it?

Is it fully destroyed, the cementing your loyalty to Donald?

Or is it not fully destroyed, confirming your TDS?
 
JANFU said:
We shall see as the Devil is in the details of inspections. IAEA needs to be a fixture in Iran conducting inspections for many decades.
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Agreed.

Any agreement needs to Saddam him with inspectors.
 
Chomsky said:
We don't know that for sure, but it is quite possible.

As of yet, neither the U.S. Military nor IAEA can verify the attack accomplished its goal.

Here's another cite to this:

(WBEZ) Satellites show damage to Iran's nuclear program, but experts say it's not destroyed
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https://nypost.com/2025/06/23/world...fordo-nuclear-facility-before-us-air-strikes/
CLAX1911 said:
Any evidence to this? Forgive me for not trusting Iran.
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Satellite images appeared to show scores of trucks lined up at Iran’s Fordow nuclear facility just days before the US carried out its large-scale airstrikes — as speculation swirled that Tehran may have been able to move its uranium stockpiles before the attacks.

The images, released by US defense contractor Maxar Technologies, captured more than a dozen cargo-style trucks lined up outside the Fordow nuclear enrichment site’s tunnel entrance on Thursday and Friday.

The vehicles, which came and went over a 24-hour stretch, appeared to move unidentified contents roughly half a mile away, the Free Press reported, citing US officials.
1750729819086.webp
 
HumblePi said:
https://nypost.com/2025/06/23/world...fordo-nuclear-facility-before-us-air-strikes/


Satellite images appeared to show scores of trucks lined up at Iran’s Fordow nuclear facility just days before the US carried out its large-scale airstrikes — as speculation swirled that Tehran may have been able to move its uranium stockpiles before the attacks.

The images, released by US defense contractor Maxar Technologies, captured more than a dozen cargo-style trucks lined up outside the Fordow nuclear enrichment site’s tunnel entrance on Thursday and Friday.

The vehicles, which came and went over a 24-hour stretch, appeared to move unidentified contents roughly half a mile away, the Free Press reported, citing US officials.
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So speculation fair enough we'll wait and see if that works out to be what happened.
 
phoenix2020 said:
His source is Donald declaring that it was fully destroyed.

This is a fairly simple process.

1. Donald issues the talking points.

2. @CLAX1911 repeats the talking points.

That's it! It's quite simple.
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Well - the poster made implied assertions, which I should have had him clarify from the get-go.

The first is to define the specific metrics of mission success.

Trouble is Trump never defines metrics of success in his actions, so it's kinda' hard to hold MAGA to it, because obviously they have nothing to cite but Trump's ambiguity.

We'll see if the poster replies and decides to see his point through. In fact, he can draw the debate by simply scaling back metrics of success to that he can adequately cite! Which is fine by me, because that would put us in agreement - if he doesn't mind agreeing to some lessor bar that's factual. I can live with that.
 
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Chomsky said:
Well - the poster made implied assertions, which I should have had him clarify from the get-go.

The first is to define the specific metrics of mission success.

Trouble is Trump never defines metrics of success in his actions, so it's kinda' hard to hold MAGA to it, because obviously they have nothing to cite but Trump's ambiguity.

We'll see if the poster replies and decides to see his point through. In fact he can draw the debate, by simply scaling back metrics of success that he can adequately cite! Which is fine by me, because that would put us in agreement - if he doesn't mind agreeing to some lessor bar that's factual. I can live with that.
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It may be hard to swallow, but it's been a good day for Trump. It may blow up in his face tomorrow or the next but consider Iran , NATO, and possible Gaza progress his ego inflation may bust his head.
 
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