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Trump has now fallen below 50% US-wide.

The Stars Tremble said:
Indeed. It is very disappointing to here Democrats now, saying that Clinton wasn't really the president ... or that he was an illegitimate president. He beat TWO guys, twice, and that's probably harder than the usual two-horse race.
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2 left vs 1 right = advantage right
1 left vs 2 right = advantage left
 
Slartibartfast said:
Its obvious that Trump is "really" the president. That's not what I am talking about at all. That's the legal situation we must endure and we will do that.

What it means is that the country is still, on balance, more liberal than conservative and that is the basis in which liberals can move forward and with cultural support as roadblocks are put up against the new administration's agenda. There is a lot of power in that, even if its not measurable in a legality sense.
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There are State governments, which will protect your rights even if Federal government won't.

When I was young, I visited almost all the States of Australia. I never made it to Western Australia. I liked South Australia but couldn't see myself living in such a small city. Tasmania has the friendliest people, but their capital is a town. I liked Victoria quite a lot, and if I'd found a job I might still be there.

It's not easy to move inter-state. You don't know anyone and you don't have family. If you do move, you'll still have to travel for family occasions.

Most Americans don't move permanently interstate. The census numbers suggest there's a lot of inter-state migration, but actually they're measuring the same migrants over and over (even some returning to an earlier state). Some drifters, who are continually on the move. It's really not easy to move a long way.
 
The Stars Tremble said:
There are State governments, which will protect your rights even if Federal government won't.

When I was young, I visited almost all the States of Australia. I never made it to Western Australia. I liked South Australia but couldn't see myself living in such a small city. Tasmania has the friendliest people, but their capital is a town. I liked Victoria quite a lot, and if I'd found a job I might still be there.

It's not easy to move inter-state. You don't know anyone and you don't have family. If you do move, you'll still have to travel for family occasions.

Most Americans don't move permanently interstate. The census numbers suggest there's a lot of inter-state migration, but actually they're measuring the same migrants over and over (even some returning to an earlier state). Some drifters, who are continually on the move. It's really not easy to move a long way.
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My life is where I am at and that is where I will get to work. I have moved between states multiple times, but I have no inclination to right now.
 
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Individual said:
2 left vs 1 right = advantage right
1 left vs 2 right = advantage left
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Perot was a Goldwater libertarian. All GHW Bush needed to do, to win, was to propose a raft of spending cuts.

But he got beaten by Clinton who took the opposite approach: tax increases.

A lesson that all subsequent Presidents failed to learn. George Bush cut taxes and started a very expensive war. Obama kept much the same deficit, and Trump did too (until his final year, when COVID required a big deficit.) Biden spent a lot, allowing some Trump tax cuts to expire, but keeping others. His deficits were huge.

Clinton was unlike any President, in that he actually cut deficits. Politically he was forced to, but it was also agreeable to liberals. Deficits are money borrowed from the top end of town, they come with interest payments (rather huge payments now, because of interest rates.) Debt has to be paid someday, it's quite rightly called "a tax on our children."
 
Slartibartfast said:
My life is where I am at and that is where I will get to work. I have moved between states multiple times, but I have no inclination to right now.
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OK. I'm guessing you moved before, to seek work? Or were you just bored?
 
The Stars Tremble said:
OK. I'm guessing you moved before, to seek work? Or were you just bored?
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The last time I moved across the country was for a promotion.

These days I can pretty much work from anywhere in the world since my specialty is in cloud data systems. I just have no inclination to move right now.
 
Slartibartfast said:
The last time I moved across the country was for a promotion.

These days I can pretty much work from anywhere in the world since my specialty is in cloud data systems.
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I'm guessing you need a good internet connection. Still there are many lovely places that have that.
 
Zzzzzzzzzz..........

You people do realize Trump already won, right?

There are no moral victories in elections, it's winner take all. Trump will not be sharing 48.7% of the power with Harris.
 
Tender Branson said:
The electoral college should really be abolished.

This election has once again shown that a candidate (Trump) can win heavily in the electoral college (which is slanted and biased in favour of small Trump-voting states) --- but lose the national popular vote.

The electoral college is therefore extremely unfair and biased towards rural-Trump-voting states.

Trump below 50% among 153 million voters (49.8%) makes his win in the electoral college bitter and he's now kinda an illegitimate president.

In a good system like ours, he would now have to face Harris again in a runoff election.

If he beats her there again, OK.

If Harris wins the runoff election, she'd be the legitimate president.
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Sounds like a good system.

I wonder how Trump and Harris would do in a run-off election? The Trump win was a huge wake-up call to a lot of people. Maybe more would come out to vote in a run-off. Maybe Trump would lose then.

The American system was created back when there were only 13 states and women couldn't vote. The country has changed drastically, but the election system has not. Since the American system was created it has been observed, problems noted, and improvements have been made by other nations when they became democracies.

America is stuck with the prototype democracy system.

Refinements have been made but we have ignored them.

This has resulted in many elections where a lot of people are really pissed off because the vote loser ended up winning.

A lot of Americans are really tired of seeing their choice win the popular vote and then the loser gets to take office. It makes it seem like the system is rigged to make people feel like voting isn't worth it.

The success of our government depends on the consent of the governed. When people no longer believe in government a country is in trouble and headed in the wrong direction. Peace is threatened.
 
Peacenik said:
Sounds like a good system.

I wonder how Trump and Harris would do in a run-off election? The Trump win was a huge wake-up call to a lot of people. Maybe more would come out to vote in a run-off. Maybe Trump would lose then.

The American system was created back when there were only 13 states and women couldn't vote. The country has changed drastically, but the election system has not. Since the American system was created it has been observed, problems noted, and improvements have been made by other nations when they became democracies.

America is stuck with the prototype democracy system.

Refinements have been made but we have ignored them.

This has resulted in many elections where a lot of people are really pissed off because the vote loser ended up winning.

A lot of Americans are really tired of seeing their choice win the popular vote and then the loser gets to take office. It makes it seem like the system is rigged to make people feel like voting isn't worth it.

The success of our government depends on the consent of the governed. When people no longer believe in government a country is in trouble and headed in the wrong direction. Peace is threatened.
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Now you people want to change the rules, after the contest is over and you lost.

These have always been the rules, everyone ever elected to that office has won by those rules.

You just want rules you think will favor you winning, as we all do, but you're not going to get them.
 
I cannot find anything that validates the OP, who claims there is a vote count out there somewhere, that invalidates everyone else.
 
Tender Branson said:
Trump now has 76.4 million votes and 49.93%

2024 Presidential Election by State

2024 Presidential Election by State
www.thegreenpapers.com

Which means a majority of American voters voted against Trump.
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It also means based on your view that an even greater majority voted against Harris.

And an even greater majority voted against each of the Independent candidates.

Sooooo, basically Trump beat each and every one of them individually by a greater majority, by the way you gauge things.

Feel better now? :coffee:
 
nvflash said:
Zzzzzzzzzz..........

You people do realize Trump already won, right?

There are no moral victories in elections, it's winner take all. Trump will not be sharing 48.7% of the power with Harris.
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It's "winner takes all" for the Presidency, but that's not the only kind of election.

If anyone is wondering why Giuliani hasn't been offered a place in Trump's cabinet, it could be because he's been elected president of Pakistan:

Asif_Ali_Zardari_-_2024_(cropped).webp
 
Peacenik said:
Sounds like a good system.

I wonder how Trump and Harris would do in a run-off election? The Trump win was a huge wake-up call to a lot of people. Maybe more would come out to vote in a run-off. Maybe Trump would lose then.
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I don't think so. Run off elections force the third party supporters to choose a side (or stay home.)

We lost this one. The last thing we should do is accuse the winners of not knowing what they were voting for. They turned out to vote, so there's really no doubt about who they wanted.

WHY they wanted Trump, is an ongoing mystery. They're going to get screwed. Deporting immigrants could be enough to trigger a recession, and tariffs on every other country (and counter tariffs) will cause a recession AND cause inflation.

I know exactly why Trump wants to rule from day one. He wants most of the negative consequences, to be over by the mid-terms. But he's not a miracle worker: the US will be in deep shit by the mid-terms, and still getting worse by the elections of 2028. Anyone telling him he's causing a disaster, will simply get fired.
 
Tender Branson said:
I am not convinced.

"In the U.S. a President of the United States is elected to represent the people of all the States."

Yes, 153 million people just voted. And Trump only received 49.8% of the vote. That's not an absolute majority. He doesn't represent them as a result of these 153.000.000 people voting.

He only won a majority in an artificial body of 538 people, who apparently "represent" the states and their 153.000.000 voters.

Absurd.
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The 528 people haven't voted yet.

Some of those electoral college delegates are 'unbound' and can vote however they chose. :ROFLMAO:
 
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