Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts"

[Excon]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

All I said is that their will be more evidence coming out, and there will.

Sure there will be more evidence coming out. But what we know of it is the following:

"The evidence and testimony we have so far does not establish that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self defense. We don't have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense, at this point, with the evidence and testimony that we have,"
Fatal shooting of Florida teen turned over to state attorney - CNN.com​

An analysis of a 911 call done over the weekend by the Orlando Sentinel determined that screams for help overhead on a 911 came from Martin, although Zimmerman's family insist they recognize his voice in the screams.


George Zimmerman: Enhanced Video Shows Injury Watch Video

Trayvon Martin Supporters Demand Justice Watch Video

Trayvon Martin Protests Intensify Watch Video

Two evidence experts consulted by the Sentinel found the voice heard in a 911 call placed by a woman in a home near where the shooting occurred was only a 48 percent match to Zimmerman's voice. One of the experts, Tom Owen, told the Sentinel to reach a positive match he would expect higher than 90 percent.

"As a result of that, you can say with reasonable scientific certainty that it's not Zimmerman," Owen told the paper.

Owen,the chair emeritus at the American Board of Record Evidence, was not able to determine if the voice was that of Martin, the Sentinel reports, because he did not have audio of the teen's voice to compare to the shouts for help in the 911 call.

Page 2: Trayvon Martin Case: Doctor Sees Little Evidence George Zimmerman Had Broken Nose - ABC News

If Martin went back to murder Z, why would he be crying out for help? If Martin is the one crying out for help, and it's definitely not Z, then I'd believe that he also thought his life was in danger and was needed assistance.

I am not ok with this guy shooting Martin, and some posters seeming to shrug it off like it's just self defense and justifiable. A reasonable person in Z's situation would have regrets for their actions and would be bothered by the result. It was another human being after all.

It is not an Official analysis - not evidence - therefore meaningless.

 

[Risky Thicket]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

In all fairness, you don't have to ACTUALLY be being killed, you just have to have a "reasonable" fear that you might be.

I'm reasonable, and I would probably challenge the guy too.

And there's NO WAY I would let the big skinhead guy whos been following me about reach in his pocket when I ask him why he's following me.

Wouldn't be prudent.

I agree and I think that may end up being the crucial point, one we may likely never know. Did Zimmerman shove Martin first? That changes things. Did Zimmerman reach for his cell or his gun? We probably won't know that answer either. IF after being targeted for whatever reason by a stranger in a unfamiliar neighborhood and being confronted Martin believed Zimmerman to be reaching for his weapon then Martin feeling threatened was perhaps justified in clocking Zimmerman.

If I am not mistaken Zimmerman said Martin hit him and knocked him to the ground. That would be easy enough to determine as there would be bruising and evidence on Martin's hands. If he broke Zimmerman's nose there should be blood on Martin's hands. If he repeatedly bashed Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk there will be evidence proving it.

I understand the reasonable fear part. It has been a subject taught in a few weapons classes I have taken. "Reasonable" threat of serious bodily injury is a question here. I believe that Zimmerman's lawyers are going to have to wrestle with that proof based on the forensic evidence. We know that Zimmerman's injuries were so slight that a cop told the ambulance service that the second ambulance was not necessary as Zimmerman didn't require it. We know that Zimmerman did not get medical assistance until the next day and his attorney said that no stitches were required. It may be a bit difficult to argue that Zimmerman faced the threat of serious bodily injury. That may be even more difficult to argue if Martin is relatively unmarked.

 

[ric27]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

Wasn't the decision to convene a grand jury made AFTER the uproar started.

Not arguing, just making sure I have my facts straight.

I thought the case was "closed" before the media blitz.

Reason why one must try to never take anything in the media to heart, it's all blown out of proportion for their purpose. Rating and sensationalism is all that counts to them

This case was never close. It had to go to the GJ eventually like every self-defense homicide in the county

The people agitating for an immediate arrest were either grossly ignorant/misinformed or had some other agenda.....spear headed by, the media thats look fwd to these situations. Putting their spin on events, failing to check facts, using events/statements out of context, etc, etc

 

[Excon]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

I agree and I think that may end of being the crucial point, one we may likely never know. Did Zimmerman shove Martin first? That changes things. Did Zimmerman reach for his cell or his gun? We probably won't know that answer either. IF after being targeted for whatever reason by a stranger in a unfamiliar neighborhood and being confronted Martin believed Zimmerman to be reaching for his weapon then Martin feeling threatened was perhaps justified in clocking Zimmerman.

If I am not mistaken Zimmerman said Martin hit him and knocked him to the ground. That would be easy enough to determine as there would be bruising and evidence on Martin's hands. If he broke Zimmerman's nose there should be blood on Martin's hands. If he repeatedly bashed Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk there will be evidence proving it.

I understand the reasonable fear part. It has been a subject taught in a few weapons classes I have taken. "Reasonable" threat of serious bodily injury is a question here. I believe that Zimmerman's lawyers are going to have to wrestle with that proof based on the forensic evidence. We know that Zimmerman's injuries were so slight that a cop told the ambulance service that the second ambulance was not necessary as Zimmerman didn't require it. We know that Zimmerman did not get medical assistance until the next day and his attorney said that no stitches were required. It may be a bit difficult to argue that Zimmerman faced the threat of serious bodily injury. That may be even more difficult to argue if Martin is relatively unmarked.

"The evidence and testimony we have so far does not establish that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self defense. We don't have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense, at this point, with the evidence and testimony that we have,"
Fatal shooting of Florida teen turned over to state attorney - CNN.com​

 

[Risky Thicket]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

"The evidence and testimony we have so far does not establish that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self defense. We don't have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense, at this point, with the evidence and testimony that we have,"
Fatal shooting of Florida teen turned over to state attorney - CNN.com​

That's correct as far as we (the public) know and there is no way in hell anyone connected with the investigation is going to tell us anything more about that night than what we already know until the investigation is complete.

If I were Z's daddy I'd be doing everything I could to protect my son and keep him out of prison. If I were M's daddy I'd be doing everything I could to have all the unanswered questions answered and justice served whatever that may be. I am sorry for all involved.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

You have made too many assumptions. At least one map presented showed possible paths taken to the point of altercation, such that Z had progressed down the corridor more, then headed back. Another equally plausable route would be that Z went through those rows, as in across them, and never went "down". I have seen maps with that route as well. All such routes are plausable if Z had wanted to either maintian visual contact, having possibly lost it, or know just best where M went before he returned to his vehicle, as he was expecting the cops, and wanted to tell them as best he could.

Here is one real safe assumption. M could have walked to his Dad's gf's place and back twice from when he first realized he was being followed. He chose not to.

I'm not sure about the last part.

As best we could figure out, a minute to three minutes is the time "unaccounted for".

I've seen Zims 911 call ending from aboit 7:12 and 7:15. Police on the scene and Martin already dead for a short time. (a minute or two?) at 7:17

My personal theory is that they startled each other.

That Martin ran up between the rows of buildings and stopped for some reason. Several perfectly reasonable reasons can be posited for him to do so. Calming the girlfriend, getting his bearings in an unfamiliar area, peeking between the buildings back towards where he last saw Zimmerman to see if he's still there, you get the idea.

Zimmerman "came up on him" without seeing him.

This could have happened in several ways. I don't see how he could have "crossed the tee" and still ended up as far down the "base of the tee" as the shooting took place. Possible I guess. But its reasonable to assume he saw Martin "turn the corner" down the pathway between the buildings. Its not that far from where Zs truck was. (And now we have this " behind the apartments" comment from Zs father, haven't seen that video yet so haven't really added it to my "thinking")

They exchanged words. Either the "Why are you following me?"/"What are you doing around here?" exchange related by the girlfriend or (the considerably more confrontational) "You got a problem?"/"no"/"you do now" attributed to Z.


Then there's a physical altercation. How it started is unknown. Z says he was approached from behind then attacked, from what others have said. I believe the same source says Z reached for his cell phone just before the attack by M.

And this is where Z may be telling the truth as he remembers it but not be relating the truth of what actually happened.

I think its perfectly possible that they suddenly found each other WAY closer than either ever intended to get to the other. This is consistent with both versions, because both claim they lost sight of each other. All it would take is Martin slowing to a walk as soon as he got between the. buildings and Z running around the corner. Z HAS to get to this intersection to hope to keep M in sight, I'm certain he's intimate with the layout. If martin "went to ground" somewhere between the buildings, its even possible Z ran right by him because he assumed M was still running, and was Indeed on his way back PAST Martin when they "encountered" each other, again, much closet than either intended.


From here, both all jacked up because they startled each other, they speak, Z reaches for his phone, Minterprets this as him going for a weapon and "attacks" in fear for his life, which looks to Z like he's being "attacked".

They go down in a tangle, as people fighting often do, and the gun comes into play.

From there its a fight for the gun that Martin loses.

This fits all the known evidence, and doesn't require anybody to be lying.

I have no proof, but I just can't accept the "Martin as bald aggressor" POV that's prevalent. Its just too hard to believe. The kind of aggressive, predatory behavior on Martins part is not evidenced by anything in his somewhat checkered past. Shady, maybe, but no violence that's more than speculation.

And even for shady its not realistic. Zims not a small guy, nor is he a fat weakling. Ms in unfamiliar territory. He has no idea where Z lives, who his friends are, whether or not they live RIGHT THERE, etc.. It just doesnt "ring true" that M decided at that place and time to become a predatory aggressor.

But by the same token, while Z may not be the sharpest crayon in the box, I think bes basically a good guy. He certainly is trying to be, by all accounts. Maybe take his volunteering a bit more seriously than the average person would, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. No racist element at all that I can see.

My brain wants to "see" how this all went down. I'm interested. I want as many hard facts as I can get so my brain can construct a satisfactory scenario. I want to know what HAPPENED, not what can be proven in a court of law. I KNOW that at this point there's no evidence to convict that we know of.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

Seems you do not call yourself "What if" for nothing :roll:

 

[Phoenix]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

My personal theory is that they startled each other.

I believe the "they startled each other" theory is a merely a way to justify that Martin may have just attack Zimmerman because he was pissed he was following him. Martin was a young, fit guy. He probably thought he could take him no problem.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

So the eye witness accounts are conflicting, and not all of them support Z's side of the story. Some of the eye witness accounts, actually, do a good job of incriminating Z. As people have said repeatedly, this isn't cut and dry.

Read below.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One man interviewed by a local Fox news station, who asked to be identified only as John, said he saw the man wearing a red jacket — Zimmerman — on the ground, being beaten by someone on top of him — Trayvon.

“The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me ‘Help, help,’ and I told him to stop and I was calling 911. I got upstairs and looked down, the person that was on top beating up the other guy was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point,” he said.

But last week another unidentified man told CNN that he saw a larger man on top and a boy underneath. There wasn’t much movement, he said.

Zimmerman’s father told the Orlando TV station that as his son was being beaten he tried to move from the concrete onto the grass. In doing so, he said, the gun his son kept in a holster on his waist was exposed.

“Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of ‘You’re going to die now’ or ‘You’re gonna die tonight’ — something to that effect,” Robert Zimmerman said. “He continued to beat George. At some point, George pulled his pistol and did what he did.”

Seven calls came in to 911.

“They’re wrestling right in the back of my porch,” one caller said. “A guy is yelling, ‘Help.’…. I’m pretty sure the guy is dead.”

“I saw a man lying on the ground and he needed help, screaming,” one 13-year-old boy told 911. “I heard a loud sound, and the screaming stopped.”

Selma Mora Lamilla heard no fighting, only what she says was the wail of a child and the distinct crack of gunfire that silenced it. She ran outside her back porch, where she said she saw Zimmerman standing above Trayvon, apparently holding him down.

“I asked him, “What’s happening here? What’s going on?” Mora said. “The third time, I was indignant, and he said, ‘Just call the police.’ Then I saw him with his hands over his head in the universal sign of: ‘Oh man, I messed up.’ ”

Read more here: What is known, what isn’t about Trayvon Martin’s death - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

Interesting that the stories about the gun related by Zs dad and brother differ.

And I swear to god when I heard the description of Z pacing with his hands on his head the first thing I thought was "that's not good body language".

Then the second thing I thought was his nose and head hurt and he was worked up.

Thanks for the post!

 

[Risky Thicket]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

Not bad, What if, and something I had not considered.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

Seems you do not call yourself "What if" for nothing :roll:

Nope.

And my accuracy on this kind of stuff is pretty high. (Still don't have a "best match" yet)

Time will tell!

 

[Excon]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

That's correct as far as we (the public) know and there is no way in hell anyone connected with the investigation is going to tell us anything more about that night than what we already know until the investigation is complete.

I guess it went right over your head.

"The evidence and testimony we have so far does not establish that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self defense. We don't have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense, at this point, with the evidence and testimony that we have,"
Fatal shooting of Florida teen turned over to state attorney - CNN.com​

That was information we had at the end of the last investigation and prior to the new investigation.
Unless new information has come forth showing that Zimmerman didn't act in self-defense. That is where we are at.

The only thing I can think of the might possibly be new, would be the girl friends statement which is consistent with Zimmerman's version.
But if it is new, her words are suspect for coming out after the original investigation was finished.

If I were Z's daddy I'd be doing everything I could to protect my son and keep him out of prison. If I were M's daddy I'd be doing everything I could to have all the unanswered questions answered and justice served whatever that may be. I am sorry for all involved.

We have no need to speculate on, or about, their actions.

 

[Excon]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

Not bad,

Yes you are right. It isn't bad, it is horrible.
Nothing but unneeded speculation.

 

[What if...?]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

Not bad, What if, and something I had not considered.

Somewhere in around here is where the truth lies, I strongly suspect.

But may never get to know.

One thing I think some may not have picked up on is I'm not "anti-Zim". Haven't been for some time. "DAMMIT, ZIMMERMAN" is about all I can muster.

He ****ed up and somebody died. If only that bringing the gun into the situation resulted in somebody who wasn't doing anything wrong dying.

Don't get me wrong. I have NO problem with people carrying PER SE. But if you're going to carry death around with you everywhere you go, I by damned want you to have your ****ing **** together and NOT get yourself into situations you wouldn't if you didn't have the fools courage that guns give some people.

You MUST at ALL TIMES make the world a safer place for the innocent.

Jedi, yes. Barney Fife, no.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

His father said his son claims Martin was poking around the back of townhouses rather than just walking along the sidewalk and that is why he called 911 as a suspicious person in a high burglary neighborhood.

His father probably made up the whole story so I guess he is the one to ask about it. It keeps getting better and better. I can't wait for the next installment.
Anybody who doesn't go to a hospital for documentaion of his alibi after killing an unarmed man is either stupid or knows the "fix" is in and left the station that night without a care in the world. it looks more and more like Zims father has quite the pull with the Sanford Police and with 46 911 calls last year alone they have already put up with Zimm quite a bit.....Pus he doesn't look that stupid.

 

[Grim17]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

His father probably made up the whole story so I guess he is the one to ask about it. It keeps getting better and better. I can't wait for the next installment.
Anybody who doesn't go to a hospital for documentaion of his alibi after killing an unarmed man is either stupid or knows the "fix" is in and left the station that night without a care in the world.
He doesn't look that stupid.

Speculate much, or do you have a crystal ball?

 

[What if...?]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

I guess it went right over your head.

"The evidence and testimony we have so far does not establish that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self defense. We don't have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense, at this point, with the evidence and testimony that we have,"
Fatal shooting of Florida teen turned over to state attorney - CNN.com​

That was information we had at the end of the last investigation and prior to the new investigation.
Unless new information has come forth showing that Zimmerman didn't act in self-defense. That is where we are at.

The only thing I can think of the might possibly be new, would be the girl friends statement which is consistent with Zimmerman's version.
But if it is new, her words are suspect for coming out after the original investigation was finished.




We have no need to speculate on, or about, their actions.

Still.can't figure out what the hell is up withthe whole girlfriend thing.

How in the hell was she never interviewed? I can find where she needed to go to the hospital, which is probably true, because its easily verifiable. But I can't find where she calls the cops, or why she didn't.

On the other hand, they had his phone. Right there. Its by far the fastest way to reach his next of kin. There's possibly even a loose headset. Cops routinely check cell phone call records of suspected drug dealers, etc.

So how in the hell does nobody know a call was in progress DURING part of this whole thing until AFTER the investigation is closed. It HAD to have been the LAST CALL for craps sake.

For me this is BY FAR the most vexing part. It just doesn't make sense. The ONLY witness to the moments leading up to the shooting other than Zimmerman somehow managed to slip completely by the investigation.

And they could have interviewed her promptly, before she could have had any idea what Zs side of the story was. This would have been valid evidence to corroborate or disprove Zs story. To make a factual determination as to whether a claim of self defense was valid.

But that apparently didn't happen.

So my confidence in the "thoroughness" of the investigation isn't very high.

 

[Excon]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

On the other hand, they had his phone. Right there

They did??

 

[What if...?]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

They did??

I would certainly hope so, if they investigated the scene.

Unless we're going to speculate that it disappeared from the scene somehow or, more sinister, someone else, SOMEWHERE else called Ms girlfriend from HIS phone just minutes before the shooting and its all an elaborate plot of some kind.

 

[Neomalthusian]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

Guess what everybody???



Enough with this topic already.

 

[Excon]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

I would certainly hope so, if they investigated the scene.

Unless we're going to speculate that it disappeared from the scene somehow or, more sinister, someone else, SOMEWHERE else called Ms girlfriend from HIS phone just minutes before the shooting and its all an elaborate plot of some kind.

Nope.
Just pointing out that you are speculating.

 

[jgarden47]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

<sigh>. It does not matter. They had a legal confrontation in the beginning. Maybe not a smart one, but they had words, which is legal. The merit will hinge on who is believed or proven to have assaulted who, and then what was Zimmerman's situation when he chose to use deadly force.

It was a situation entirely of Zimmerman's own making - if he had stayed in his car as directed by the police dispatcher, instead of tracking Martin, there never would have been a confrontaion and an innocent teenager would have been allowed to finish his walk to his father's home!

 

[Excon]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

It was a situation entirely of Zimmerman's own making - if he had stayed in his car as directed by the police dispatcher, instead of tracking Martin, there never would have been a confrontaion and an innocent teenager would have been allowed to finish his walk to his father's home!

No it is not.
He also was not directed to stay in his truck by a dispatcher.

If only Trayvon had not acted out violently he would be alive today.

 

[Excon]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

Still.can't figure out what the hell is up withthe whole girlfriend thing.

Beats me.
Maybe they did contact her and she told them the following the first time, but only later changed her story.

"Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell.
I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone."
Trayvon Martin Arrest Now After ABC Reveals Crucial Phone Call - ABC News​

OMG. She was talking to him, lost contact, and tried to call him again but he didn't answer.


The article provided the following image to verify that what she said about being on the phone with Trayvon is accurate.

02/26/2012 07:04 PM Incoming

(First conversation)​

02/26/2012 07:12 PM Incoming

("I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone.")​

No further incoming calls fore that evening are listed.


Hey! Wait a ding dang minute.
Apparently Zimmerman was still on the phone with the Dispatcher when she says she tried to call Trayvon again and received no answer.

02/26/2012 07:13 PM Zimmerman requests LEO call before meeting.
(Hi-lighted on image in Red.)

"02/26/2012     19:13:41     COMPL NOW REQ LEO 1045 BEFORE 1056"

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Re: Trayvon Martin: ABC enhances George Zimmerman video .... "Pair of Gashes or Welts

It was a situation entirely of Zimmerman's own making - if he had stayed in his car as directed by the police dispatcher, instead of tracking Martin, there never would have been a confrontaion and an innocent teenager would have been allowed to finish his walk to his father's home!

You struggle with word meaning.

Without a doubt, the incident does not happen if Z decides not to be as a Community Watch person that night, or possibly getting out of his car. But that does not equate to "the siuation was entirely of his making". At some point, someone violated the Law. That is where your "situation" gets made.

Your post reminds me of those who blame the girl who is raped because she dressed in a short skirt.