The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

[Individual]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

The situation is more complicated when you consider the effects of the many "safety net" programs. Two people doing the same job, for the same employer, at the same hourly pay are often getting paid (compensated?) differently if one of them qualifies for "safety net" assistance.

If a household requires $X/month in order to meet living expenses then what portion of that $X comes from a meager paycheck (or two) and what portion is added or made unnecessary by "safety net" assistance makes little difference. We are often reminded that a significant percentage of low wage workers (e.g. Walmart workers) receive "safety net" assistance. That is simply a direct subsidy for low wage workers allowing the employer to offer less than a "living wage" and still attract and retain qualified labor since the balance (for many of those low wage workers from "needy households") is made available from society (the taxpayers).

Should we consider Walmart, McDonalds, and others like them to be career jobs?
A couple of my co-workers who retired after me, with a larger pension as I retired early, took ma job at Home Depot and another similar business to earn a little extra spending money. Both of them, I might add, were retirement age and were enticed to retire by a $200,000 bonus which I did not receive, I simply moved abroad where the cost of living was/remains much lower than that of the U.S.

Many, if not most of our successes/failures during life is a result of the decisions we as individuals make, or in some cases fail/refuse to make. After all isn't that governments job?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

Should we consider Walmart, McDonalds, and others like them to be career jobs?
A couple of my co-workers who retired after me, with a larger pension as I retired early, took ma job at Home Depot and another similar business to earn a little extra spending money. Both of them, I might add, were retirement age and were enticed to retire by a $200,000 bonus which I did not receive, I simply moved abroad where the cost of living was/remains much lower than that of the U.S.

Many, if not most of our successes/failures during life is a result of the decisions we as individuals make, or in some cases fail/refuse to make. After all isn't that governments job?

We should consider that the 'work requirement' for "safety net" assistance allows them to count.

 

[Individual]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

We should consider that the 'work requirement' for "safety net" assistance allows them to count.

Well, if we're going to count them as career type jobs then some people are just going to have to work more than one job, more than a 40 hour work week, or pool and share their resources with another/others to make ends meet.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

Well, if we're going to count them as career type jobs then some people are just going to have to work more than one job, more than a 40 hour work week, or pool and share their resources with another/others to make ends meet.

The "safety net" programs often provide exactly the opposite incentive. If for each additional $1 of income reported one loses $0.75 in "safety net" benefits then one is effectively working for $0.25 more (net) - not a wise thing to do considering that one could easily make more than that by working "off the books" especially if working less than full-time "on the books".

 

[Individual]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

The "safety net" programs often provide exactly the opposite incentive. If for each additional $1 of income reported one loses $0.75 in "safety net" benefits then one is effectively working for $0.25 more (net) - not a wise thing to do considering that one could easily make more than that by working "off the books" especially if working less than full-time "on the books".

There should be no government handouts to those who are of able body/mind, capable of working without some form of labour cost. Perhaps even requiring them to sit in a room with nothing but school books to read for 8 hours a day or 40 hours each week, would entice some to find work instead?

Oh, and no games, phones, food or smoking allowed, with only 2 15 minute breaks and time for lunch allowed.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

There should be no government handouts to those who are of able body/mind, capable of working without some form of labour cost. Perhaps even requiring them to sit in a room with nothing but school books to read for 8 hours a day or 40 hours each week, would entice some to find work instead?

The "safety net" programs are not about equality of opportunity they are about equality of outcome.

 

[phattonez]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

Nope, not uncomfortable at all. I'm comfortable with the system as is and refuse to join the crazed mob of jealousy, envy and "them vs us" wackos.

I can't express how inconsequential your entire point is to me.

This is called a refusal to deal with reality. You don't like the figures that I present, so you are just going to ignore them.

 

[blarg]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

The "safety net" programs are not about equality of opportunity they are about equality of outcome.

if that outcome is not dying that sounds good

 

[Conservative]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

if that outcome is not dying that sounds good

What seems to be the problem here is a lack of understanding as to the roles of the federal, state, and local governments and whose responsibility it is for safety nets. Most liberals do not seem to understand what taxes they pay and their purpose thus they continue to support more dollars going to the federal bureaucrats who through their size and inefficiencies create debt not positive social results.

It is the state and local communities closest to the social problems that should be forced to fix them and the way to do that is to stop supporting Federal tax increases so there is more money left in the states to solve these problems. Yes, that may mean an increase in state taxes but the reality then is that people would have a choice, to stay in the state or leave it.

 

[blarg]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

What seems to be the problem here is a lack of understanding as to the roles of the federal, state, and local governments and whose responsibility it is for safety nets. Most liberals do not seem to understand what taxes they pay and their purpose thus they continue to support more dollars going to the federal bureaucrats who through their size and inefficiencies create debt not positive social results.

It is the state and local communities closest to the social problems that should be forced to fix them and the way to do that is to stop supporting Federal tax increases so there is more money left in the states to solve these problems. Yes, that may mean an increase in state taxes but the reality then is that people would have a choice, to stay in the state or leave it.

ya pretty sure people at risk of dying are not in a good position to move states

 

[noonereal]

that's a really stupid version of the No True Scotsman failure. most successful capitalists started out as "working class"

who gives "working class" people jobs?

How many working class folks became capitalists?

With odds at over a million to one your "logic" is nothing more than a fallacy.

 

[noonereal]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

There should be no government handouts to those who are of able body/mind, capable of working without some form of labour cost. Perhaps even requiring them to sit in a room with nothing but school books to read for 8 hours a day or 40 hours each week, would entice some to find work instead?

Oh, and no games, phones, food or smoking allowed, with only 2 15 minute breaks and time for lunch allowed.

One reads a post like his and leans that the poster is not highly evolved. They learn nothing of the thread subject matter.

 

[Conservative]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

ya pretty sure people at risk of dying are not in a good position to move states

Yep, no question about it state and local government officials want citizens to die so that they reduce the possibility of losing votes for the next election. Do you people ever think about state and local responsibilities or even your own?

 

[TurtleDude]

How many working class folks became capitalists?

With odds at over a million to one your "logic" is nothing more than a fallacy.

so there are only 300 capitalists in the USA

talk about a major fail on your part

 

[iguanaman]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

What seems to be the problem here is a lack of understanding as to the roles of the federal, state, and local governments and whose responsibility it is for safety nets. Most liberals do not seem to understand what taxes they pay and their purpose thus they continue to support more dollars going to the federal bureaucrats who through their size and inefficiencies create debt not positive social results.

It is the state and local communities closest to the social problems that should be forced to fix them and the way to do that is to stop supporting Federal tax increases so there is more money left in the states to solve these problems. Yes, that may mean an increase in state taxes but the reality then is that people would have a choice, to stay in the state or leave it.

So you believe 50 separate bureaucracies and 50 different programs are more efficient than a single program that covers all Americans? There is nothing more insane than that. People in every State have the same needs when it comes to safety nets and there is no reason at all for a hodge podge array of different laws. We are called the United States for a reason and we are not the "Disjointed States".

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

So you believe 50 separate bureaucracies and 50 different programs are more efficient than a single program that covers all Americans? There is nothing more insane than that. People in every State have the same needs when it comes to safety nets and there is no reason at all for a hodge podge array of different laws. We are called the United States for a reason and we are not the "Disjointed States".

I think the better argument is that state run systems provide built in checks and balances that a centralized system-which is driven by vote buying and pandering does not have. the founders believed that the federal government should be one limited to specific and few enumerated powers.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

I think the better argument is that state run systems provide built in checks and balances that a centralized system-which is driven by vote buying and pandering does not have. the founders believed that the federal government should be one limited to specific and few enumerated powers.

I call that total BS. The founders had nothing to say about safety nets. Your entire ideology is built on your overwhelming greed and fear and nothing more. Shame on you for being such a coward.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

I call that total BS. The founders had nothing to say about safety nets. Your entire ideology is built on your overwhelming greed and fear and nothing more. Shame on you.

Stop the lies. the founders didn't give the federal government any power whatsoever for federal safety nets. That alone tells us what they thought about a federal welfare system. And stop lying about others. you pretend it's greedy for people like me to point out that federal welfare is a violation of the tenth amendment because you don't really support the constitution. And you pretend its greedy to want to keep what you earn but NOT GREEDY to try to take credit by taking money from others to give to those who will adore you for your coerced charity. You want to buy good will from some by taking from others. Now that is far far more greedy than pretending those of us who want the federal government restricted to its proper role.

 

[Conservative]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

So you believe 50 separate bureaucracies and 50 different programs are more efficient than a single program that covers all Americans? There is nothing more insane than that. People in every State have the same needs when it comes to safety nets and there is no reason at all for a hodge podge array of different laws. We are called the United States for a reason and we are not the "Disjointed States".

Yep, sure do as those 50 different states have 50 different cost of livings and taxes making the one size fits all program ripe for waste, fraud, and abuse thus generating the 21 trillion dollar debt. there is nothing more insane that you posting the same information over and over again, ignoring actual results, being proven wrong and refusing to admit it

We are called the United States for the purpose of PROVIDING FOR THE COMMON DEFENSE. Anything not in the Constitution is to be left to the states and that included healthcare

 

[iguanaman]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

Stop the lies. the founders didn't give the federal government any power whatsoever for federal safety nets. That alone tells us what they thought about a federal welfare system. And stop lying about others. you pretend it's greedy for people like me to point out that federal welfare is a violation of the tenth amendment because you don't really support the constitution. And you pretend its greedy to want to keep what you earn but NOT GREEDY to try to take credit by taking money from others to give to those who will adore you for your coerced charity. You want to buy good will from some by taking from others. Now that is far far more greedy than pretending those of us who want the federal government restricted to its proper role.

More BS. There is nothing un-Constitutional about our safety nets and you are the one who does not support the Constitution or your country. I will add ungrateful to your list of failings. Care to try for more?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

So you believe 50 separate bureaucracies and 50 different programs are more efficient than a single program that covers all Americans? There is nothing more insane than that. People in every State have the same needs when it comes to safety nets and there is no reason at all for a hodge podge array of different laws. We are called the United States for a reason and we are not the "Disjointed States".

There is nothing that would prevent state A from adopting (copying?) exactly the same programs as state B but to assert that residents of HI and MS are treated the same if given an equal federal monetary "safety net" benefit is BS.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

There is nothing that would prevent state A from adopting (copying?) exactly the same programs as state B but to assert that residents of HI and MS are treated the same if given an equal federal monetary "safety net" benefit is BS.

LOL There still would be 50 separate bureaucracies controlled by 50 separate sets of bureaucrats. Also they idea that all States would give the same protections is ludicrous. You want to make safety nets as inefficient and costly as our Health Care coverage.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

LOL There still would be 50 separate bureaucracies controlled by 50 separate sets of bureaucrats. Also they idea that all States would give the same protections is ludicrous. You want to make safety nets as inefficient and costly as our Health Care coverage.

You have a point there - how could anything be as efficient as the 100% federally run VA healthcare system? SNAP is really efficient - just let those known to make poor financial decisions pay full retail for their self-selected grocery items at Quickie Mart prices.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/well/eat/food-stamp-snap-soda.html

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

More BS. There is nothing un-Constitutional about our safety nets and you are the one who does not support the Constitution or your country. I will add ungrateful to your list of failings. Care to try for more?

YOU APPARENTLY have no understanding of the concept of a government limited to enumerated powers. you can say everything you want-it only proves that you don't understand the nonsense the FDR administration engaged in or that the commerce clause was not intended to be a general grant of any power congress wanted.

 

[iguanaman]

Re: The "Tax The Rich" Delusion on the Left

YOU APPARENTLY have no understanding of the concept of a government limited to enumerated powers. you can say everything you want-it only proves that you don't understand the nonsense the FDR administration engaged in or that the commerce clause was not intended to be a general grant of any power congress wanted.

You have no understanding of patriotism, or that our founders gave us the Supreme Court and Amendments to allow us to modernize the Constitution for the needs of a modern democratic republic. They knew that an 18th century document would not be sufficient to meet the challenges of the future. You need to start your own country somewhere else, I'm afraid the USA is not for you. You can leave your cash on the way out too,