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The Immaculate Conception

Elvira's comment prompted me to go look it up because I had forgotten. It seems the legs of the other two men were broken, not Jesus' legs.

Elvira, while I don't believe in your beliefs and am never likely to, you act a little more like a teacher who wants people to learn, rather than just telling them what to think and believe like Logicman does. It's refreshing not to get bashed over the head in a pompous self-righteous way :D

:thumbs:
 
I would say that what it shows is that the later Christian writers drew upon an imperfect understanding of the Jewish scriptures, often from the Greek rather than the original Hebrew to write TO the Jewish scriptures to make it look like Jesus was the best thing since Matzo
Yes I think there is a lot of support for that too.

Not sure about the matzo though.
 
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Just exactly how did the alleged Immaculate Conception go down? How was Mary's egg fertilized, if at all? Was sperm involved? If it was possible to get a DNA sample from Jesus, what would that DNA reveal about the paternal donor?


Red:
  1. Um...the conception happened in one of the usual ways...for example:
    • A little kissing that leads to heavy petting, then some foreplay and finally "doing the nasty," and maybe a cigarette, something to eat and/or drink and perhaps some "pillow talk" afterwards.
    • Togas-on but hastily lifted to facilitate a "fast and furious" bang against a wall in a secluded alleyway.
    • On the DL while riding in the back of some dudes "donkey cart" taxi or some such.
  2. By my reckoning, there was no immaculate conception, but rather that there was just a conception, we just don't have good information about who did it.
 
Are you aware that the tradition of holy figures being born from a virgin pre-exists Christianity ?

It was kind of common for religions back then to boast that their holy leader was born of a virgin...made it sound like they must be special and/or divine even.

Osiris was born of a virgin. Do you think that made him divine ?

Don't you EVER do your homework?

23 REASONS WHY SCHOLARS KNOW JESUS IS NOT A COPY OF PAGAN RELIGIONS

https://jamesbishopblog.com/2015/01...-know-jesus-is-not-a-copy-of-pagan-religions/

Osiris was a MYTH, born of the union of Geb (earth) and Nut (sky).

No virgin birth there.
 
Why are Elvira's beliefs any less valid for her than yours are for you?

If you had a valid theological background you wouldn't have to ask that questions.

But for you, the reason is they rewrote the Bible. And their revisions are not in the earliest manuscripts.
 
Elvira's comment prompted me to go look it up because I had forgotten. It seems the legs of the other two men were broken, not Jesus' legs.

Elvira, while I don't believe in your beliefs and am never likely to, you act a little more like a teacher who wants people to learn, rather than just telling them what to think and believe like Logicman does. It's refreshing not to get bashed over the head in a pompous self-righteous way :D

Well, it's pretty pompous and arrogant of you to casually disgrace, in front of Christians, Biblical figures like the Virgin Mary, making her into a lesbian. So you've more than earned the right to whatever you get back.
 
I would say that what it shows is that the later Christian writers drew upon an imperfect understanding of the Jewish scriptures, often from the Greek rather than the original Hebrew to write TO the Jewish scriptures to make it look like Jesus was the best thing since Matzo

You've gone down that road before and you never could make a successful case on any of that.
 
Well, it's pretty pompous and arrogant of you to casually disgrace, in front of Christians, Biblical figures like the Virgin Mary, making her into a lesbian. So you've more than earned the right to whatever you get back.

What's 'disgraceful' about being a lesbian?
 
If you had a valid theological background you wouldn't have to ask that questions.

But for you, the reason is they rewrote the Bible. And their revisions are not in the earliest manuscripts.

When people ask questions on a forum, it doesn't mean they don't already know the answer. Like when Elvira asked a question a few posts ago when she clearly already knew the answer. So what if the JW's have 're-written' (as you claim), or re-interpreted the Bible. It's her belief and she has a right to express it. Are you that naive that you don't think other religious groups, probably including your own (something fundamentalist it appears), haven't done similiar?

This is a discussion forum, not your personal bully pulpit. You clearly don't understand why I was asking that question because you just bulldose through everyone else insisting that only your beliefs are valid. You believe in pop-apologist tosh by lightweight hacks like Josh McDowell and Lee Strobel, so I seriously doubt you would know anything real about the 'earliest manuscripts'.
 
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You don't know the questions, let alone the answers, and you are without respect for what you don't know. No one's interfering with your right to post from and in ignorance. By the same logic I have the right to call you on it.

You're doing the distraction routine because you have no answers of any kind and you know you can't answer the OP's question or explain how immaculate conception is possible. If you have nothing on topic to contribute why are you here?
 
I would say that what it shows is that the later Christian writers drew upon an imperfect understanding of the Jewish scriptures, often from the Greek rather than the original Hebrew to write TO the Jewish scriptures to make it look like Jesus was the best thing since Matzo

This is all starting to come back to me now. I've been talking about climate science and exposing climate truthers for too long and forgotten how into this stuff I used to be.

We have evidence of where the idea or precepts of a hellenized jewish messiah came from.

For example:

A big clue to the origins of tying the Greek philosophical idea of the 'Logos' with either a physical or 'spiritual' 'messiah' is found in the writings of the first century hellenized Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria:

The pivotal and the most developed doctrine in Philo’s writings on which hinges his entire philosophical system, is his doctrine of the Logos. By developing this doctrine he fused Greek philosophical concepts with Hebrew religious thought and provided the foundation for Christianity, first in the development of the Christian Pauline myth and speculations of John, later in the Hellenistic Christian Logos and Gnostic doctrines of the second century. All other doctrines of Philo hinge on his interpretation of divine existence and action. The term Logos was widely used in the Greco-Roman culture and in Judaism. Through most schools of Greek philosophy, this term was used to designate a rational, intelligent and thus vivifying principle of the universe. This principle was deduced from an understanding of the universe as a living reality and by comparing it to a living creature.​

Ref: https://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/#H11

To me, the gospel stories of a "Jesus" character seem to have been an invention to personify the Greek philosophical idea of the 'Logos" and tie it in with the Jewish messianic myths of the time.

Curious that Philo, who lived at the time of the supposed Jesus, never mentioned this Jesus messiah person who supposedly went all over the place creating miracles. Neither did the first century Jewish historian Josephus who wrote about the people and the very area where Jesus supposedly conducted his 'ministry'. The insertions by later a Christian zealot (probably Eusebius in the 4th century) are accepted as interpolations (pious fraud) by secular historians because they interrupt the flow of the surrounding text and are not consistent with the style of writing of Josephus.
 
You're doing the distraction routine because you have no answers of any kind and you know you can't answer the OP's question or explain how immaculate conception is possible. If you have nothing on topic to contribute why are you here?
I'm very sorry for your reading troubles. I hope it's not too late for remediation.
 
You're doing the distraction routine because you have no answers of any kind and you know you can't answer the OP's question or explain how immaculate conception is possible. If you have nothing on topic to contribute why are you here?

He's always like that. He likes to be quoted daily.
 
Red:
  1. Um...the conception happened in one of the usual ways...for example:
    • A little kissing that leads to heavy petting, then some foreplay and finally "doing the nasty," and maybe a cigarette, something to eat and/or drink and perhaps some "pillow talk" afterwards.
    • Togas-on but hastily lifted to facilitate a "fast and furious" bang against a wall in a secluded alleyway.
    • On the DL while riding in the back of some dudes "donkey cart" taxi or some such.
  2. By my reckoning, there was no immaculate conception, but rather that there was just a conception, we just don't have good information about who did it.

Shame on you, old man. You're better than this thread's Three Stooges.
Here's post #5, missed by you in the rush to the sophomoric locker-room snicker behind Logician Man, Quaestio and zyzygy.

Your ignorance in this matter is noted, gentlemen. The Immaculate Conception does not refer to Mary's pregnancy, but to Mary's mother's pregnancy. It refers to Mary's having been conceived without original sin. Remember this thread and your posts next time the smart aleck in you rises.
 
Elvira's comment prompted me to go look it up because I had forgotten. It seems the legs of the other two men were broken, not Jesus' legs.

Elvira, while I don't believe in your beliefs and am never likely to, you act a little more like a teacher who wants people to learn, rather than just telling them what to think and believe like Logicman does. It's refreshing not to get bashed over the head in a pompous self-righteous way :D

Thank you for that...after all, teachers is what Jesus commanded us to be...Matthew 28:19,20

If Jesus was not teaching by asking questions or using parables, he was answering by using scripture to prove his point, even when talking to Satan...Matthew 4:1-11
 
Well, it's pretty pompous and arrogant of you to casually disgrace, in front of Christians, Biblical figures like the Virgin Mary, making her into a lesbian. So you've more than earned the right to whatever you get back.

Not everyone holds sacred the same things that you do...

"Do not be quick to take offense, for the taking of offense lodges in the bosom of fools." Ecclesiastes 7:9
 
Shame on you, old man. You're better than this thread's Three Stooges.
Here's post #5, missed by you in the rush to the sophomoric locker-room snicker behind Logician Man, Quaestio and zyzygy.
Your ignorance in this matter is noted, gentlemen. The Immaculate Conception does not refer to Mary's pregnancy, but to Mary's mother's pregnancy. It refers to Mary's having been conceived without original sin. Remember this thread and your posts next time the smart aleck in you rises.

Red:
Whoa, Nellie! I didn't rush to a damn thing. I read the title and OP and then posted my response to it, whereafter I exited the thread. Your post above is the second one I've read in this thread, and the only reason I read it is because I received a notification that you quoted a post of mine. I don't have the first idea of what those three members, or any others, are "on about" in this thread.


Blue:
Thank you.


Other:
  1. I understand the difference between the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth.

  2. I'm willing to "own" the vulgarity of my response to the OP/title. I responded in that tone because, quite frankly, I think the question to which I responded is ridiculous to ask. I think that because (1) the question has been asked and answered so often that it's response is hackneyed, and trite (it was possible because God's omnipotent), and (2) the question depends on a matter of faith being so or not so, and matters of faith cannot be shown to be so, but they can be very steadfastly believed to be so.
    • Insipid Question --> How did the Immaculate Conception happen? In the usual way, of course; nobody argues that it happened in any other way. Even long standing Catholic (thus the rest of Christendom that ascribes to the notion of Immaculate Conception) catechism says that.
      • Better question --> Assuming the Immaculate Conception didn't happen in the usual way, how, IYO, might it have happened? What evidence supports your thinking in this regard?
      • Better question --> If you've bothered to think about it, how do you reconcile the incoherence of Mary having been immaculately conceived while also being conceived in the usual way, yet as a normally conceived human, Mary must necessarily have be a descendent of Adam and Eve, and all their descendents are necessarily born with original sin?
        • Though orthodox answers to that question can be Googled, phrasing the question to the reader, rather than in the abstract, opens the door for heterodox ideas. Whether or not one receives a rigorously developed answer is another matter, but at least one has posed a question that solicits one and that, by its phrasing, shuts the door on sarcastic, vulgar and/or banal replies.
      • Better question --> Does the legend of the Immaculate Conception compliment, refute or bolster your POV regarding "Ancient Alien" theory?
    • Insipid Question --> How did Jesus walk on water? By putting one foot in front of the other.
  3. The topic of the Immaculate Conception offers some rather intriguing discussion about the nature and propagation of (original) sin (provided one proffers a decent discussion rubric), but such discussion simply isn't what's entreated for in the OP.
    -- St. Augustine's Doctrine of Original Sin
    -- Original Sin: Its Importance & Fairness
    The OP question is a stupid one, so my answer matched it, albeit that the sardonic nature/tone of my reply wasn't by all noted. That is what it is....I should have put more cues in my post to more effectively prevent that from happening.
 
Magic is magic. No truth in it.
 
Don't you EVER do your homework?

23 REASONS WHY SCHOLARS KNOW JESUS IS NOT A COPY OF PAGAN RELIGIONS

https://jamesbishopblog.com/2015/01...-know-jesus-is-not-a-copy-of-pagan-religions/

Osiris was a MYTH, born of the union of Geb (earth) and Nut (sky).

No virgin birth there.

Yes, I am sure the musings of a washed out divinity student is very scholarly.. .. to you. However, it is full of misinformation, misdireciton, and refusal to see the actual similarities by focusing strictly on the differences.
 
You've gone down that road before and you never could make a successful case on any of that.

Well, none YOU accept of course. A number of Chrisitans reject anything that does not fit their preconceptions. THis is known as the 'backfire effect'
 
This is all starting to come back to me now. I've been talking about climate science and exposing climate truthers for too long and forgotten how into this stuff I used to be.

We have evidence of where the idea or precepts of a hellenized jewish messiah came from.

For example:

A big clue to the origins of tying the Greek philosophical idea of the 'Logos' with either a physical or 'spiritual' 'messiah' is found in the writings of the first century hellenized Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria:

The pivotal and the most developed doctrine in Philo’s writings on which hinges his entire philosophical system, is his doctrine of the Logos. By developing this doctrine he fused Greek philosophical concepts with Hebrew religious thought and provided the foundation for Christianity, first in the development of the Christian Pauline myth and speculations of John, later in the Hellenistic Christian Logos and Gnostic doctrines of the second century. All other doctrines of Philo hinge on his interpretation of divine existence and action. The term Logos was widely used in the Greco-Roman culture and in Judaism. Through most schools of Greek philosophy, this term was used to designate a rational, intelligent and thus vivifying principle of the universe. This principle was deduced from an understanding of the universe as a living reality and by comparing it to a living creature.​

Ref: https://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/#H11

To me, the gospel stories of a "Jesus" character seem to have been an invention to personify the Greek philosophical idea of the 'Logos" and tie it in with the Jewish messianic myths of the time.

Curious that Philo, who lived at the time of the supposed Jesus, never mentioned this Jesus messiah person who supposedly went all over the place creating miracles. Neither did the first century Jewish historian Josephus who wrote about the people and the very area where Jesus supposedly conducted his 'ministry'. The insertions by later a Christian zealot (probably Eusebius in the 4th century) are accepted as interpolations (pious fraud) by secular historians because they interrupt the flow of the surrounding text and are not consistent with the style of writing of Josephus.

Philo's concept of the Logos was the wisdom of God which acted as the intermediary between God and Man. It is interesting to reread the Gospel of John with that concept in mind.
 
And no one does stupid better than today's know-nothing atheist.

I know a lot, but I also know enough to be aware of how little that "a lot" amounts to. You should consider getting down from that high horse of yours before you get a nose bleed.
 
Just exactly how did the alleged Immaculate Conception go down? How was Mary's egg fertilized, if at all? Was sperm involved? If it was possible to get a DNA sample from Jesus, what would that DNA reveal about the paternal donor?

According to archaeological records, Mary was a skank, fooling around with a number of Roman legionaries during that time, so its highly probable that Jesus was a bastard son of a Roman soldier, which helps explain why he was so rebellious against the Jewish faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Julius_Abdes_Pantera
 
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