The Immaculate Conception

[Quaestio]

Smarty pants...I had to look that one up...:2razz:

*chuckle* I guess he liked reading about Greek and Roman gods too.

 

[Logicman]

But Jesus was human...otherwise his sacrifice would have meant nothing...Jesus as a perfect man, “the last Adam”, was the only human capable of providing the redemption price for Adam’s unborn offspring....that is what a corresponding sacrifice is...

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross! - Philippians 2

 

[Quaestio]

Some people like to believe that the Holy Spirit was previously known in earlier times as Sophia the Goddess of wisdom. Because you know, women got the lousy end of the stick in the Abrahamic religions as chattels of men and some probably want to get their whole ancient mother earth Goddess thing back too.

But that would mean that Mary was a lesbian- in 'spirit' only of course.

 

[Logicman]

Haven't you learnt yet that people often cherry-pick whatever they want from the Bible and make scripture fit whatever they want?

I asked about your beliefs, not what's in the Bible.

This isn't cherry picking. It's answering a specific issue.

"This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit." - Matthew 1:18

That's scripture and that's what I believe.

 

[Quaestio]

But Jesus was human...otherwise his sacrifice would have meant nothing...Jesus as a perfect man, “the last Adam”, was the only human capable of providing the redemption price for Adam’s unborn offspring....that is what a corresponding sacrifice is...

You're right, it would mean nothing for a God to 'die' then come back in 3 days. Just a few hours of pain on a cross. Far less time than most people who were crucified by the Romans got.

 

[Logicman]

Some people like to believe that the Holy Spirit was previously known in earlier times as Sophia the Goddess of wisdom. Because you know, women got the lousy end of the stick in the Abrahamic religions as chattels of men and some probably want to get their whole ancient mother earth Goddess thing back too.

But that would mean that Mary was a lesbian- in 'spirit' only of course.

Some people have a lot of stupid ideas.

 

[Quaestio]

Don't feel to badly...I got booted from my own Lutheran confirmation. took a recess, dad bribed me a little to keep mom happy, and I got a do-over and 'took one for the gipper' to keep the family peace.

Ok, I had to look up "took one for the gipper". An American saying I wasn't aware of.

 

[Logicman]

Here we go again with the resident Jehovah's Witness denying the deity of Jesus.

Here's just a small sampling of the evidence that Jesus is divine:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30). https://righterreport.com/2013/03/21/the-deity-of-jesus-christ-in-scripture/

 

[Daisy]

In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross! - Philippians 2

So according to verse 5, you consider it your right to be equal with God?

 

[Rich2018]

Just exactly how did the alleged Immaculate Conception go down? How was Mary's egg fertilized, if at all? Was sperm involved? If it was possible to get a DNA sample from Jesus, what would that DNA reveal about the paternal donor?

More to the point, why didn't Joseph want to f**k his new wife after they were married.


How many wives are virgins after the wedding night ?


Or is there some Jewish tradition I'm missing ?

 

[Rich2018]

Here we go again with the resident Jehovah's Witness denying the deity of Jesus.

Here's just a small sampling of the evidence that Jesus is divine:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30). https://righterreport.com/2013/03/21/the-deity-of-jesus-christ-in-scripture/

Are you aware that the tradition of holy figures being born from a virgin pre-exists Christianity ?

It was kind of common for religions back then to boast that their holy leader was born of a virgin...made it sound like they must be special and/or divine even.


Osiris was born of a virgin. Do you think that made him divine ?

 

[Quaestio]

This isn't cherry picking. It's answering a specific issue.

"This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit." - Matthew 1:18

That's scripture and that's what I believe.

Ok. So how was she physically made pregnant by the Holy Spirit? Any ideas?

And was Jesus fully human according to your beliefs? If not, then what's the big deal about 'dying' on a cross only to come back 3 days later? He was only on the cross for a few hours according to scripture. That's far less time than most people who were crucified by the Romans.

 

[Rich2018]

Ok. So how was she physically made pregnant by the Holy Spirit? Any ideas?

And was Jesus fully human according to your beliefs? If not, then what's the big deal about 'dying' on a cross only to come back 3 days later? He was only on the cross for a few hours according to scripture. That's far less time than most people who were crucified by the Romans.

Yeah but some Roman guy shoved a spear in his side...another account says the Roman broke Jesus' legs thus ensuring a quick death....which kinda contradicts the suffering that was allegedly inflicted upon Jesus.


I mean why make the guy suffer so much....and then bring his suffering to such a quick end. The whole point of crucifixion was that it was extremely painful and inflicted gross suffering.

 

[Quaestio]

Some people have a lot of stupid ideas.

Yes they do. I don't think that was one a particularly stupid idea though given that earlier cultures worshiped Goddesses. No more 'stupid' an idea than a Holy Spirit impregnating a woman. You're just used to your own beliefs.

 

[Daisy]

Yeah but some Roman guy shoved a spear in his side...another account says the Roman broke Jesus' legs thus ensuring a quick death....which kinda contradicts the suffering that was allegedly inflicted upon Jesus.


I mean why make the guy suffer so much....and then bring his suffering to such a quick end. The whole point of crucifixion was that it was extremely painful and inflicted gross suffering.

Who's account would that be?

 

[Idiometer]

Just exactly how did the alleged Immaculate Conception go down? How was Mary's egg fertilized, if at all? Was sperm involved? If it was possible to get a DNA sample from Jesus, what would that DNA reveal about the paternal donor?

Artificial insemination.

 

[Quaestio]

Here we go again with the resident Jehovah's Witness denying the deity of Jesus.

Here's just a small sampling of the evidence that Jesus is divine:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30). https://righterreport.com/2013/03/21/the-deity-of-jesus-christ-in-scripture/

Why are Elvira's beliefs any less valid for her than yours are for you?

 

[Idiometer]

You don't know the questions, let alone the answers, and you are without respect for what you don't know. No one's interfering with your right to post from and in ignorance. By the same logic I have the right to call you on it.

No one does smug or pompous half as well as a know-it-all Christian.

 

[Quaestio]

Yeah but some Roman guy shoved a spear in his side...another account says the Roman broke Jesus' legs thus ensuring a quick death....which kinda contradicts the suffering that was allegedly inflicted upon Jesus.


I mean why make the guy suffer so much....and then bring his suffering to such a quick end. The whole point of crucifixion was that it was extremely painful and inflicted gross suffering.

None of the whole original sin/Jesus dying for our sins story has ever really made sense to me. As a kid, I would just mindlessly parrot the required dogma about "Jesus loved us and sacrificed himself for our sins" -without thinking about it. Then I started really thinking about it, and it was like Huh? What? WTF? Then after doing more research I was like: Seriously? How do people swallow this?

But I'm suspending my lack of belief for this thread in case I can learn something new. So far the only new thing I've learnt is about JW beliefs from Elvira.

 

[RAMOSS]

Here we go again with the resident Jehovah's Witness denying the deity of Jesus.

Here's just a small sampling of the evidence that Jesus is divine:

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7)
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25; Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds (Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew 14:33;28:9)
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God saves). Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God’s Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30). https://righterreport.com/2013/03/21/the-deity-of-jesus-christ-in-scripture/

Your "Old Testament" references say no such thing. None of them were talking about Jesus what so ever.

I guess you can make lists, but can't discuss those specific passages in context.

 

[Quaestio]

Yeah but some Roman guy shoved a spear in his side...another account says the Roman broke Jesus' legs thus ensuring a quick death....which kinda contradicts the suffering that was allegedly inflicted upon Jesus.

Who's account would that be?

Elvira's comment prompted me to go look it up because I had forgotten. It seems the legs of the other two men were broken, not Jesus' legs.

Elvira, while I don't believe in your beliefs and am never likely to, you act a little more like a teacher who wants people to learn, rather than just telling them what to think and believe like Logicman does. It's refreshing not to get bashed over the head in a pompous self-righteous way

 

[Quaestio]

Artificial insemination.

Turkey baster? Did they have them then?

 

[Quaestio]

No one does smug or pompous half as well as a know-it-all Christian.

Sometimes I like to do an impersonation of smug and pompous and know-it all though. I'll let others be the judge if I can pull it off successfully.

As long as they aren't smug and pompous pretend know-it-alls, because then they can just go jump.

 

[Quaestio]

Your "Old Testament" references say no such thing. None of them were talking about Jesus what so ever.

I guess you can make lists, but can't discuss those specific passages in context.

It actually provides some support for the idea that the story of Jesus was mostly made up from OT scripture and other philosophical ideas at the time. People thought very differently in those days. I learnt quite a bit when I was a lot younger, especially reading the works of Philo of Alexandria who lived in the first half of 1st century during the time that Jesus was supposed to have lived. He was a hellenistic jewish philosopher.

 

[RAMOSS]

It actually provides some support for the idea that the story of Jesus was mostly made up from earlier scripture.

I would say that what it shows is that the later Christian writers drew upon an imperfect understanding of the Jewish scriptures, often from the Greek rather than the original Hebrew to write TO the Jewish scriptures to make it look like Jesus was the best thing since Matzo