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The Hereafter?

What is my immediate fate to be?

  • ::poof:: You simply cease to exist.

    Votes: 9 28.1%
  • Reincarnation as a person.

    Votes: 1 3.1%
  • Reincarnation as another life-form (plant - animal).

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • You remain in a metaphysical stasis until a final Judgement Day.

    Votes: 6 18.8%
  • An immediate metaphysical disposition of Heaven or Hell.

    Votes: 9 28.1%
  • Your essence simply rejoins the universe as diffuse energy.

    Votes: 7 21.9%

  • Total voters
    32
  • Poll closed .

Tashah

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Organized religions, personal spirituality, apathist, agnostic, atheist, yada, yada, yada.

All expressions of belief and non-belief are represented in this community. Just curious as to what you believe to be your ultimate disposition or destination. I have provided six options but if you envision a different scenario... please post it below.

Have at it and RIP ;)


 

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I put cease to exist.
At a later date, I believe that the old man upstairs will come back and wake me up.
 

robin

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There is an interesting viewpoint on time.. that the universe can be regarded as a 4d block diagram.. 3 axis of space & one axis of time.
Since every 'present' moment along the time axis could consider itself to be as special as any other 'present' moment, then what is it that signifies the true 'present' & that makes it so special compared to any other 'present' moment along the time axis.
Until we understand 'time' fully we won't even know what the hereafter is & indeed whether it is the hereafter or indeed whether it is after the here :smile:
 

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I believe in a Heaven & Hell, but I run into this problem....

The belief is that what you do on earth will decide what happens to you in the afterlife....I find that odd....

What you do in 60 years of existence will define your place for all of Eternity?
That's a little harsh, don't you think?
 

galenrox

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cnredd said:
I believe in a Heaven & Hell, but I run into this problem....

The belief is that what you do on earth will decide what happens to you in the afterlife....I find that odd....

What you do in 60 years of existence will define your place for all of Eternity?
That's a little harsh, don't you think?
I believe in a combination of things. Have you ever seen the movie "What Dreams May Come"? It's a lot like that. People either go to heaven or hell, or they reincarnate, or they become a ghost for a predetermined amount of time, that's my personal belief.
 

Tashah

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robin said:
There is an interesting viewpoint on time.. that the universe can be regarded as a 4d block diagram.. 3 axis of space & one axis of time.
Since every 'present' moment along the time axis could consider itself to be as special as any other 'present' moment, then what is it that signifies the true 'present' & that makes it so special compared to any other 'present' moment along the time axis.
Until we understand 'time' fully we won't even know what the hereafter is & indeed whether it is the hereafter or indeed whether it is after the here :smile:
Thanks robin. In cosmology, there are four aspects to *space-time*. The fabric of space-time has three axial dimensions... x=height, y=width, z=depth. The final aspect of space-time is the dimension of time. These four aspects are inextricably woven together, and denoted in calculations with the mathematical notation 3:1.

Although everyone has an intuitive notion of what time is, no one has any idea of precisely what it is or why it has an arrow of directionality in the macroworld. When one investigates time below the threshhold of a Plank Length (the quantum or microworld), one finds that the arrow of directionality is absent.

Your questions above are excellent and so far unanswered. One can compare time to a continuous loaf of bread. Each slice of bread represents time segmented in some manner... days, hours, minutes, or seconds. In theory, no particular slice is more viable than any other slice. Because we exist in a distinct section of the bread loaf (x amount of slices) and time is relational to different observers... different observation points result in some pertinint slices of time being sliced on the diagonal rather than on the perpendicular. If one then imagines this bread-loaf and slicing scenario in a three-dimensional setting, it becomes quite clear why time-travel beyond one's dedicated section of the bread-loaf is very problematic.

Since time is part and parcel of space-time and a component of our universe, one is left with the impression that the hereafter connotes something in the realm of the metaphysical and thus something outside of our universe.

Some cosmologists such as Lee Smolin have put forth the notion that rather than time ceasing to exist in the initial singularity known as the Big Bang, it instead exists in a state of infinity. This scenario (very possible) allows and even encourages the metaverse concept of creation.


 

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I put cease to exist simply because it's my best guess at this point. I honestly do wish there were more to existence at this point, but I just haven't quite gotten around to believing in it yet.
 

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Tashah said:
Some cosmologists such as Lee Smolin have put forth the notion that rather than time ceasing to exist in the initial singularity known as the Big Bang, it instead exists in a state of infinity. This scenario (very possible) allows and even encourages the metaverse concept of creation.

The immortal laws of nature perhaps... outside of space & time. In saying this I'm wondering how can one say the word 'immortal' without indicating a flow of time, which may not be possible in a meta universe or fit with the definition of a meta universe since time doesn't flow there the word immortal may be out of context.
So maybe our language breaks down in these areas just as it does in thinking about wave particle duality. If there is a meta universe that gives rise to universes it's difficult intuitively to think it would be constrained by issuing a mere finite number of universes. If there are an infinite number then some will resemble the meta universe dto a closer & closer extent to the point where they become indistinguishable meaninga distinction might be meaningless as it's a continuum so the argument comes for circle.... maybe ?
I just thought about our... 'what is special about the present' problem. The present is special becuase it's where OUR particular events come into being as opposed to the infinite other possible outcome of a set of circumstances/conditions due to the inifinite possibilities of quantum unscertainty. So maybe It's a branch point to all the other possibilities that could have happened in relation to that moment. Maybe we can think of a each present as special becuase of what it is related to in terms of the other way the grains of sand fell speaking metaphorically in quantum terms of course.
Is this nonsense ? I'm thinking as I type or typing as I think !

I must find my Scientific American special issue about time. It's a good starting point for discussions. Especiially about the arrow of time. A philosopher in there mentions how & I've forgotten how.. but how our idea of the direction of the arrow of time may be wrong. I'll find that article. To be continued... some time in the future (or in the past) lol
 
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Tashah

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robin said:
but how our idea of the direction of the arrow of time may be wrong.
It was conjectured long ago that perhaps time is a construction of the human mind. When you think about it though, you realize that the effects of time are valid even in the absence of human observation. Processes such as entropy and thermal dynamics which are time dependent occur whether we are there or not. Cause and effect is a phenomena of the arrow of directionality and every observation to date verifies the directionality of cause-effect rather than effect-cause.

The multi-universe scenario is complex, but it has been shown via mathematics and statistical analysis that for a universe like ours to come into being via a multi-universe, only a few initial requisites are required. One is that time is infinite in a singularity. Another requirement is that life-bearing universes must be able to produce black holes (which spawns decendents). A final requirement is that any particular universe on a universal limb will resemble others that reside on that limb with only minor differences. Physics and statistical analysis tends to support the last requirement. With these simple requirements, all it takes is one initial universe that meets these criteria to spawn an ever increasing number of its children that also possess these criteria. Although it may seem a bit far-fetched, the only tricky part is the state of time in a singularity. The two remaining criteria would eventually happen (with an infinite number of random choices) if time is infinite in a singularity.


 

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Tashah said:
It was conjectured long ago that perhaps time is a construction of the human mind. When you think about it though, you realize that the effects of time are valid even in the absence of human observation. Processes such as entropy and thermal dynamics which are time dependent occur whether we are there or not. Cause and effect is a phenomena of the arrow of directionality and every observation to date verifies the directionality of cause-effect rather than effect-cause.
Imagine a perfume bottle with the lid off. The perfume evaporates &
molecules become jumbled with air molecules in the room.
But the molecular collisions are reversible. Run the movie backwards & the molecules retrace their trajectories. This reflects the symmetry in time of the laws governing molecular behaviour. However on the larger scale with many molecules there are more states of disorder than states of order so the overwhelming odds are the molecules will jumble up with the air molecules rather than stay in the bottle or even less likely.. return to the bottle.
If the universe ever reached maximum entropy, in other words heat death, then how could one show an arrow or direction of time ?
This shows the arrow is born from the arrangement of matter/energy in the big bang rather than as an intrinsic property of matter.
There are also philosophical reasons for thinking every attempt to explain time asymmetry is based on circular reasoning.

Tashah said:
The multi-universe scenario is complex, but it has been shown via mathematics and statistical analysis that for a universe like ours to come into being via a multi-universe, only a few initial requisites are required. One is that time is infinite in a singularity. Another requirement is that life-bearing universes must be able to produce black holes (which spawns decendents). A final requirement is that any particular universe on a universal limb will resemble others that reside on that limb with only minor differences. Physics and statistical analysis tends to support the last requirement. With these simple requirements, all it takes is one initial universe that meets these criteria to spawn an ever increasing number of its children that also possess these criteria. Although it may seem a bit far-fetched, the only tricky part is the state of time in a singularity. The two remaining criteria would eventually happen (with an infinite number of random choices) if time is infinite in a singularity.
By time being ‘infinite’ I guess that means no measurable flow due to gravitational time dilation, infinite red shift & such. Like a void of eternity, where no change occurs or if it did it would take an infinitely long time perhaps ?
I am inclined to believe there are an infinite number of universes. I know believe is not a word I like.. it’s unscientific.. but for some reason I feel happier with the notion of either total nothingness & no universes ever or space or time, which we know is not the case, or with there being an infinite number of universes. The stage in between of a finite number of universes would seem awkward. I mean imagine if someone deduced there are precisely 1,258,556,556 universes. Or X number of universes, why that many ?
But then maybe there is a finite amount of matter/energy & it occupies a certain number of universes & falls from one to form another via black holes so that ultimately governs the number of universes. But Even then one could ask… Why is there a total of ‘X’ amount of matter/energy ?
The complete picture may be infinitely beyond the bounds of our understanding & we will only ever scratch the surface even in a million years.
In fact to the point where language breaks down to the extent that the word ‘universe’ doesn’t apply.

Tashah said:
A final requirement is that any particular universe on a universal limb will resemble others that reside on that limb with only minor differences.
So nature might be like a giant Mandelbrot set.:)
Enjoy the best programme I’ve yet seen for zooming in & exploring the beauty of the Mandelbrot set here…. http://www.cygnus-software.com/
Enjoy

Shalom
 

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robin said:
This shows the arrow is born from the arrangement of matter/energy in the big bang rather than as an intrinsic property of matter.
The best conjecture to date is that time is a tightly curled dimensional entity.

robin said:
I am inclined to believe there are an infinite number of universes.
On a purely personal basis, I also favor the meta-universe concept.

Barukh atah Adonai Eloheinu,
melekh ha'olam oseh ma'aseh v'reishit.

Blessed is God,
who shaped the work of creation.


 

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Tashah
I'm not sure how time being a tightly curled entity could make it seem like there's a direction to time or that time seems to flow from a fixed past to an open future.

As regards God shaping creation. God's a blessed mystery.
I've a few questions regarding God, religion & life...

1) At what stage in our evolution from ape to man, did religion rear it’s head ?

2) Is there a spiritual purpose to life, or are we merely disposable vehicles for our genes ?

3) Why did the Lord wait so many years after man had evolved before he came to earth as the baby Jesus to save our souls ?

4) What happens to the souls of the billions of people that lived before Christ that didn't have a chance to turn to Christ to be saved ?

5) Do animals have souls ?
Do basic animals have souls ?
Do ants have souls ?
Do subatomic particles have souls

6) 'God the creator' implies a time before which there was nothing but God. If there is a multi verse isn't that immortal anyway so it surely didn't need someone at the outset to create it ?

7) Could it be that nature is God ?
If so is God conscious ?

8) If God is nature then is he a caring God ?
Only seems to be no evidence whatsoever to support the existence of a caring God

9) If there was a time when only God existed, then why did he decide to create a universe ?

10) How long did he wait before he made the big bang occurr, or is that not meaningfull becuase he is outside space & time ?

11) is 'God' just a word game & a play on definitions ?
 
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robin

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Tashah said:
The best conjecture to date is that time is a tightly curled dimensional entity.

On a purely personal basis, I also favor the meta-universe concept.

Barukh atah Adonai Eloheinu,
melekh ha'olam oseh ma'aseh v'reishit.

Blessed is God,
who shaped the work of creation.
Tashah
I'm not sure how time being a tightly curled entity could make it seem like there's a direction to time or that time seems to flow from a fixed past to an open future.

As regards God shaping creation & blessed is God. I don't know but I think God's a blessed mystery.
I've a few questions regarding God, religion & life...

1) At what stage in our evolution from ape to man, did religion rear it’s head ?

2) Is there a spiritual purpose to life, or are we merely disposable vehicles for our genes ?

3) Why did the Lord wait so many years after man had evolved before he came to earth as the baby Jesus to save our souls ?

4) What happens to the souls of the billions of people that lived before Christ that didn't have a chance to turn to Christ to be saved ?

5) Do animals have souls ?
Do basic animals have souls ?
Do ants have souls ?
Do subatomic particles have souls

6) 'God the creator' implies a time before which there was nothing but God. If there is a multi verse isn't that immortal anyway so it surely didn't need someone at the outset to create it ?

7) Could it be that nature is God ?
If so is God conscious ?

8) If God is nature then is he a caring God ?
Only seems to be no evidence whatsoever to support the existence of a caring God

9) If there was a time when only God existed, then why did he decide to create a universe ?

10) How long did he wait before he made the big bang occurr, or is that not meaningfull becuase he is outside space & time ?

11) is 'God' just a word game & a play on definitions ?
 

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cnredd said:
I believe in a Heaven & Hell, but I run into this problem....

The belief is that what you do on earth will decide what happens to you in the afterlife....I find that odd....

What you do in 60 years of existence will define your place for all of Eternity?
That's a little harsh, don't you think?
Many folks believe that this life is simply an audition for the next.
 

Tashah

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robin said:
I'm not sure how time being a tightly curled entity could make it seem like there's a direction to time or that time seems to flow from a fixed past to an open future.
There are four aspects to space-time: height=x | width=y | depth=z | time=t [(t) time is subdivided mathematicaly as +t=future, t=present, -t=past]. In Galilean and Newtonian physics, these aspects are regarded as absolutes and are denoted as x y z t.

In Newtonian physics, it was accepted that the distance between two observers would remain the same as the difference between two instants. Spatial distance was defined in terms of Euclidean geometry. This however, led to different values of the velocity of light (c) in the vacuum as measured by two observers.

In accordance with our experience, if we assume that both observers measure the same value of the velocity of light, we must introduce the spatiotemporal interval. It is this interval that is conserved when we move from one inertial observer to the other. In contrast to Euclidean geometry, we now have the Minkowski space-time interval. The transition from one coordinate system x y z t to another x` y` z` t` is the famous Lorentz transformation that combines space and time.

Thus we have two ways of looking at space-time. The absolute background envisioned by Newton x y z t and the relational background envisioned by Einstein x` y` z` t`. Although our universe is fundamentally quantum in nature (relational), both backgrounds have a certain validity.

In the absolute background, if one knows what are called the *initial conditions* of an x y z t plot, one can accurately plot both predictive and postdictive actions. Time has no arrow.

However in the relational background x` y` z` t`, time does indeed have an arrow which is manifested in many processes such as entropy, heat loss, viscosity etc.

The core of the problem then is that time and motion can be both indeterminate (nondirectional) or determinite (directional) depending on the background and conditions upon which it is measured or observed.

According to M-theory, the intrinsic properties of space-time (and perhaps gravity) are tightly curled (smaller than a Plank Length) and reside on the brane in which our universe is located. Until science better understands gravity waves and can isolate the *gravitron* (the gauge particle that mediates gravity), M-theory will remain in the realm of hypothesis.

I cannot answer your questions about God... as many far wiser than I have grappled with these questions and have failed to arrive at definitive and conclusive answers. Much like the questions concerning time, theology remains in the domain of philosophy.


 

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Tashah said:
There are four aspects to space-time: height=x | width=y | depth=z | time=t [(t) time is subdivided mathematicaly as +t=future, t=present, -t=past]. In Galilean and Newtonian physics, these aspects are regarded as absolutes and are denoted as x y z t.

In Newtonian physics, it was accepted that the distance between two observers would remain the same as the difference between two instants. Spatial distance was defined in terms of Euclidean geometry. This however, led to different values of the velocity of light (c) in the vacuum as measured by two observers.

In accordance with our experience, if we assume that both observers measure the same value of the velocity of light, we must introduce the spatiotemporal interval. It is this interval that is conserved when we move from one inertial observer to the other. In contrast to Euclidean geometry, we now have the Minkowski space-time interval. The transition from one coordinate system x y z t to another x` y` z` t` is the famous Lorentz transformation that combines space and time.

Thus we have two ways of looking at space-time. The absolute background envisioned by Newton x y z t and the relational background envisioned by Einstein x` y` z` t`. Although our universe is fundamentally quantum in nature (relational), both backgrounds have a certain validity.

In the absolute background, if one knows what are called the *initial conditions* of an x y z t plot, one can accurately plot both predictive and postdictive actions. Time has no arrow.

However in the relational background x` y` z` t`, time does indeed have an arrow which is manifested in many processes such as entropy, heat loss, viscosity etc.

The core of the problem then is that time and motion can be both indeterminate (nondirectional) or determinite (directional) depending on the background and conditions upon which it is measured or observed.

According to M-theory, the intrinsic properties of space-time (and perhaps gravity) are tightly curled (smaller than a Plank Length) and reside on the brane in which our universe is located. Until science better understands gravity waves and can isolate the *gravitron* (the gauge particle that mediates gravity), M-theory will remain in the realm of hypothesis.

I cannot answer your questions about God... as many far wiser than I have grappled with these questions and have failed to arrive at definitive and conclusive answers. Much like the questions concerning time, theology remains in the domain of philosophy.


It would appear that the assistance of a Supreme Being is needed to provide the solutions which man is incapable of providing. Perhaps that is as it should be if one wonders Who set the charge and lit the fuse that put the big bang in "The Big Bang Theory".

:lol:
 

Tashah

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Fantasea said:
It would appear that the assistance of a Supreme Being is needed to provide the solutions which man is incapable of providing.
That may be so Fantasea. It may also be true that the answers are available to us through empirical knowledge gained with the passage of time.

Fantasea said:
Perhaps that is as it should be if one wonders Who set the charge and lit the fuse that put the big bang in "The Big Bang Theory".
Although the Big Bang Theory (BBT) is the current cosmological standard, there are other viable possibilities...

• This universe is a deistic creation.
• This universe is a random event due to an imbalance in a scalar field.
• This universe is a random offspring of a meta-universe.
• This universe is one of many on a specific limb of a meta-universe

All of these conjectures are possible and none can be ruled out at this time. While the BBT is the current standard, I have many problems with it philosophically. Principal among these problems are the vital cosmic parameters that allow life as we know it to exist and flourish. To my mind, the odds against this occurance puts a heavy burden on both the BBT and a scalar imbalance.

The third choice is slightly better if there are an infinite number of possibilities available.

The last choice is best philosophically (from a cosmologists point of view) because if only a few specified initial conditions exist, it guarentees a universe (indeed many) just like ours. Actually, this very much resembles what happens biologically via procreation and genetics.

The interesting denominator is that none of the scenarios mentioned above completely exclude a deistic creation. In effect, the meta-universe concepts change the historicity of creation, but perhaps not the origen. Something like moving a lump under the carpet from one spot to another... the lump still exists, we have simply moved it from in front of the sofa to a far corner.

Hope this helps.


 

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I think there is something after death whether you want to call it heaven hell or just exsistance. I dont think we should be good people just to get to on of those places though that just being kind for reward but thats off subject.
 

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Tashah said:
Although the Big Bang Theory (BBT) is the current cosmological standard, there are other viable possibilities...

• This universe is a random event due to an imbalance in a scalar field.
• This universe is a random offspring of a meta-universe.
• This universe is one of many on a specific limb of a meta-universe

The interesting denominator is that none of the scenarios mentioned above completely exclude a deistic creation. In effect, the meta-universe concepts change the historicity of creation, but perhaps not the origen. Something like moving a lump under the carpet from one spot to another... the lump still exists, we have simply moved it from in front of the sofa to a far corner.

Hope this helps.

I think one way or another nature is infinite & immortal & never needed to be created in the 1st place becuase of that. Just as one can say God is immortal so he himself did not need to be created in the 1st place. So if nature is infinite it kind of makes God redundant or an unecessary invention.
Though if nature is infinite then it must be intelligent or infinitely intelligent perhaps. So then maybe nature is God !
We are only able to attempt to grasp entirety in terms of our finite universe where we perceive time as flowing from a start point (BBT).
There is no reason to assume for sure that is the complete picture unless we limit ourselves by our imagination.

Tasha
I'm not sure what the difference is between those three options you mention.
If a scalar field can give rise to one universe then surely can it give rise to an infinite number. If so what would be the difference between that & a meta universe ?
What is the difference between historicity & origin ?
Incidently, I'm not trying to decry your ideas/statements. I'm just trying to grasp these things strictly as an Amateur ;)
 

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cnredd said:
I believe in a Heaven & Hell, but I run into this problem....

The belief is that what you do on earth will decide what happens to you in the afterlife....I find that odd....

What you do in 60 years of existence will define your place for all of Eternity?
That's a little harsh, don't you think?
The average life span is 74 years. Secondly, if you are a Christian, you will believe that belief or unbelief in Christ really decides what happens to you. How long do you need to accept or deny Christ?
 

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Scholastic said:
The average life span is 74 years. Secondly, if you are a Christian, you will believe that belief or unbelief in Christ really decides what happens to you. How long do you need to accept or deny Christ?
The average life span in some other countries is less than 50....

Why do you bring up an American statistic?

And if there are people like you on Christ's side...I'm gonna need MUCH more time...:rofl
 

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Realy if you look at it this way there is no way a human can judge, in an eternal since, another human. Look at it this way say a man is born in a bad part of town and somehow ends up killing a man, then imagen he was born in a suberb and becomes a company CEO is he a different soul or just in a different situation? So we cant realy judge about eternity.
 

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cnredd said:
The average life span in some other countries is less than 50....

Why do you bring up an American statistic?
I am bringing up the statistic of the majority of the civilized world. I really don't care about the life spans of barbarians.

And if there are people like you on Christ's side...I'm gonna need MUCH more time...:rofl
._. mmk
 

Scholastic

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TJS0110 said:
Realy if you look at it this way there is no way a human can judge, in an eternal since, another human. Look at it this way say a man is born in a bad part of town and somehow ends up killing a man, then imagen he was born in a suberb and becomes a company CEO is he a different soul or just in a different situation?
This is assuming reincarnation occurs.

So we cant realy judge about eternity.
This is where i incur St. Thomas Aquinas's teachings concerning A) First Cause B) Eternity
 

TJS0110

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Scholastic said:
I am bringing up the statistic of the majority of the civilized world. I really don't care about the life spans of barbarians.

Wow you give a bad name to religion in general
 
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