The Fallacy Of Biblical Stories, Part 1: The Great Flood & Noah's Ark

[tosca1]

Can you give me examples.

Another example just recently added on post #84 of this thread.

How did the Bible get this right too, along with what were listed in the other thread?


Fact: The BIBLE KNEW ABOUT SPRINGS IN THE OCEAN, and WATER UNDER THE OCEAN FLOOR - THOUSANDS OF YEARS - BEFORE MODERN SCIENCE EVEN KNEW OF THEM!

When was underwater springs discovered? 1977
When was water under the ocean floor discovered? 2015

Scientists found a gigantic freshwater aquifer below the Atlantic. It has enough water to fill 1 billion Olympic swimming pools | CNN

The freshwater aquifer lies about 600 feet below the floor of the Atlantic Ocean and stretches from New Jersey to Massachusetts.

www.cnn.com

 

[Questerr]

Yes. I do realize that.
Hence I said, they went back to where they came from.

Who cares about the reasons why the water gushed forth from under the ocean floor.
That's not the main point! Hahahaha


Here is the eye-boggling point:

Fact: The BIBLE KNEW ABOUT SPRINGS IN THE OCEAN, and WATER UNDER THE OCEAN FLOOR LONG, LONG, LONG, BEFORE MODERN SCIENCE EVEN KNEW OF THEM!
Lol - when was underwater springs discovered? 1977

When was water under the ocean floor discovered? 2015

Scientists found a gigantic freshwater aquifer below the Atlantic. It has enough water to fill 1 billion Olympic swimming pools | CNN

The freshwater aquifer lies about 600 feet below the floor of the Atlantic Ocean and stretches from New Jersey to Massachusetts.

www.cnn.com

Imagine that!
600 feet BELOW the ocean floor, is another body of water!

And there’s nowhere near enough water in any of those acquirers for a global flood.

 

[tosca1]

And there’s nowhere near enough water in any of those acquirers for a global flood.

You don't know that!

Do you know how deeply covered was earth with water - how deep the tallest point of earth was under water?
Do you know if there are more aquafiers around?



While some scientists subscribe to the theory that Earth's early water came from comets that came our way, the discovery of the hidden reservoir suggests that the world's water emanated from deep beneath the surface.
"It's good evidence the Earth's water came from within," Jacobsen told New Scientist.

Scientists Discover Vast 'Ocean' Hidden Deep Underground

www.huffpost.com

 

[Questerr]

You don't know that!

Scientists have zero evidence of sufficient water in the Earth’s crust to cover Mount Everest. If you are claiming there is, you need to provide evidence.

 

[tosca1]

Scientists have zero evidence of sufficient water in the Earth’s crust to cover Mount Everest. If you are claiming there is, you need to provide evidence.

Did Mt Everest exist during Noah's time?
Lol - for all we know, Mt Everest was formed because of Noah's flood!

The lay out of earth was quite different then from today.


We now know, of course, that the earth has plenty of water to launch a global flood. It has been calculated that if the earth's surface were completely flat, with no high mountains and no deep ocean basins, that water would cover the earth to a depth of about 8,000 feet. But is there enough water to cover a 29,035 foot mountain?


The key is to remember that the Flood didn't have to cover the present Earth, but it did have to cover the pre-Flood Earth, and the Bible teaches that the Flood fully restructured the earth. "The world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished" (II Peter 3:6). It is gone forever. The earth of today was radically altered by that global event.


That Flood accomplished abundant geologic work. Eroding sediments here, redepositing them there, pushing up continents, elevating plateaus, denuding terrains, etc., so that the earth today is quite different from before.
Today even mountain ranges rise high above the sea.

Mt. Everest and the Himalayan range, along with the Alps, the Rockies, the Appalachians, the Andes, and most of the world's other mountains are composed of ocean-bottom sediments, full of marine fossils laid down by the Flood.
Mt. Everest itself has clam fossils at its summit. These rock layers cover an extensive area, including much of Asia. They give every indication of resulting from cataclysmic water processes.
These are the kinds of deposits we would expect to result from the worldwide, world-destroying Flood of Noah's day.

Did Noah's Flood Cover the Himalayan Mountains?

Few doctrines in Scripture are as clearly taught as the global nature of the Great Flood in Noah's day. Genesis clearly teaches that "the waters . . . increased greatly . . . and the mountains were covered" (Genesis 7:18-20). Through the centuries, few Christians questioned this doctrine. The...

www.icr.org

Also fish fossils were discovered on Yellowstone.



Other vertebrate fossils found in Yellowstone include:

• Fish: crushing tooth plate; phosphatized fish bones; fish scales; fish teeth.

Fossils - Yellowstone National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Fossils

www.nps.gov

Also in the Himalayas:

Why Are There Fish Fossils High Up In The Himalayas? | Weather.com

It is a relatively unknown fact that marine fossils have been found at multiple locations in the Himalayas. How did this happen? - Articles from The Weather Channel | weather.com

weather.com

You're the one making unsubstantiated claims so far.
Show me your source that says that!

 

[Gordy327]

You do realize that all the water that has been on Earth is still on Earth today, water just doesn't go away. All the water on Earth can be found in 3 forms, liquid, solid or gas, there is no such thing as new or old water, it is just water. The very same water the animals drank 100 million years ago is the very same water we drink today. So it becomes a valid question as the where all this water went that covered the Earth. To understand flooding you need to understand soil and how soil relates to how and why floods occur. There had to be a reason for "the springs of the great deep to burst forth" other than "God did it". What would create the need pressure from with in the Earth to cause all this subterranean water to burst forth?

Basically, the excuse given is magic. No logical or rational explanation.

 

[tosca1]

Basically, the excuse given is magic. No logical or rational explanation.

Lol - says the one who keeps confusing KNOWLEDGE with INTERFERENCE.

 

[Gordy327]

Lol - says the one who keeps confusing KNOWLEDGE with INTERFERENCE.

I'm not the one confused. I never argued interference. You brought it up, not me.

 

[Questerr]

Did Mt Everest exist during Noah's time?
Lol - for all we know, Mt Everest was formed because of Noah's flood!

The lay out of earth was quite different then from today.


We now know, of course, that the earth has plenty of water to launch a global flood. It has been calculated that if the earth's surface were completely flat, with no high mountains and no deep ocean basins, that water would cover the earth to a depth of about 8,000 feet. But is there enough water to cover a 29,035 foot mountain?


The key is to remember that the Flood didn't have to cover the present Earth, but it did have to cover the pre-Flood Earth, and the Bible teaches that the Flood fully restructured the earth. "The world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished" (II Peter 3:6). It is gone forever. The earth of today was radically altered by that global event.


That Flood accomplished abundant geologic work. Eroding sediments here, redepositing them there, pushing up continents, elevating plateaus, denuding terrains, etc., so that the earth today is quite different from before.
Today even mountain ranges rise high above the sea.

Mt. Everest and the Himalayan range, along with the Alps, the Rockies, the Appalachians, the Andes, and most of the world's other mountains are composed of ocean-bottom sediments, full of marine fossils laid down by the Flood.
Mt. Everest itself has clam fossils at its summit. These rock layers cover an extensive area, including much of Asia. They give every indication of resulting from cataclysmic water processes.
These are the kinds of deposits we would expect to result from the worldwide, world-destroying Flood of Noah's day.

Did Noah's Flood Cover the Himalayan Mountains?

Few doctrines in Scripture are as clearly taught as the global nature of the Great Flood in Noah's day. Genesis clearly teaches that "the waters . . . increased greatly . . . and the mountains were covered" (Genesis 7:18-20). Through the centuries, few Christians questioned this doctrine. The...

www.icr.org

Also fish fossils were discovered on Yellowstone.



Other vertebrate fossils found in Yellowstone include:

• Fish: crushing tooth plate; phosphatized fish bones; fish scales; fish teeth.

Fossils - Yellowstone National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

Fossils

www.nps.gov

You're the one making unsubstantiated claims so far.
Show me your source that says that!

So you are proposing a super magic form of geology instead of actual scientific geology?

Kinda of how your entire “Kinds” argument requires super magic evolution to occur after the Flood and then suddenly stop for no apparent reason?

 

[Questerr]

Creationists: “The Biblical Flood is backed by science!”

Also Creationists: “Our model for the Flood and the diversity of life and geologic changes afterwards requires magic that violates science.”

 

[MikePrime]

Another example just recently added on post #84 of this thread.

How did the Bible get this right too, along with what were listed in the other thread?


Fact: The BIBLE KNEW ABOUT SPRINGS IN THE OCEAN, and WATER UNDER THE OCEAN FLOOR - THOUSANDS OF YEARS - BEFORE MODERN SCIENCE EVEN KNEW OF THEM!

When was underwater springs discovered? 1977
When was water under the ocean floor discovered? 2015

Scientists found a gigantic freshwater aquifer below the Atlantic. It has enough water to fill 1 billion Olympic swimming pools | CNN

The freshwater aquifer lies about 600 feet below the floor of the Atlantic Ocean and stretches from New Jersey to Massachusetts.

www.cnn.com

Interesti

Can you please explain HOW ancient people have made claims regarding the universe (which we thought were just poetic statements) without any sophisticated instruments, but have later on been reaffirmed by MODERN science
- thousands of years later?

HOW COULD THEY HAVE BEEN RIGHT?

Just so you know where I'm coming from, please refer to these:



Superiority over beasts - #21, #31
Dominion over and stewardship of all creation - #89
Hydrological Cycle - #70
Description of destruction of Sodom consistent with archeological findings - #71
Stretching Universe - #111

The biblical curse on the snake - #133
The human body - #134
Genesis creation narrative in the right order. - #180 (thanks to Patriotic Voter)
#182and #183

Springs in the ocean - #288
The universe has a beginning – the Big bang - #342
One land. One ocean. - #349
Post #497 – Genders and Reproduction
Pathfinder of the Seas – Matthew Maury - #527

The Bible

Not an answer to my question: When did Abraham leave Ur? You mean what year?

debatepolitics.com

The first one I went to look at was #180.

It isn't exactly true that genesis got the creation order correct, because there are two creation stories in the bible.

The bible is a truly fascinating work and there is some truth and history to be found in there, but the simple fact that there are so many conflicting narratives and stories that are literally told twice makes it impossible that the bible is all true. How can two narratives on one story both be true?

Genesis 1 does get the scientific order correct. but then Genesis 2 offers the narrative that after the Earth was created, God made man, then plants and animals, and then the woman.

 

[tosca1]

Interesti

The first one I went to look at was #180.

It isn't exactly true that genesis got the creation order correct, because there are two creation stories in the bible.

Do you mean the narrative of a literal 7 24-hour days? Which doesn't have to be literally taken?

The Bible wasn't written as a science book, and it has so many kinds of literature in it (poetry, parables, etc.,) and it uses so many kinds of figures of speech....... so unless it is obvious, we cannot really say what is to be taken literally.
We only find out something can be taken literally, is if it happens to be reaffirmed by science (like the examples given).

The message of Genesis isn't about the age of the earth.
It is simply to say that the Abrahamic God is the Creator.

The bible is a truly fascinating work and there is some truth and history to be found in there, but the simple fact that there are so many conflicting narratives and stories that are literally told twice makes it impossible that the bible is all true.
How can two narratives on one story both be true?

You mean the New Testament. The Books have been written from different angles by the authors, and each of them had focused on a particular issue. Thus they can be speaking about the same incident but with a difference.
Interestingly that is so true among eye-witnesses even in today's world. 5 people can be witnessing the same thing, but their narratives may differ due to their location when they saw the thing happen, and what stood out for them in
what they saw.

 

[tosca1]

Genesis 1 does get the scientific order correct. but then Genesis 2 offers the narrative that after the Earth was created, God made man, then plants and animals, and then the woman.

continuation...



They're not different. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 serve different purpose.

Genesis 1 is about the order of creation events.
Genesis 2 is more in-depth about some of the events (particularly, man).

Genesis 1 is arranged chronologically.
Genesis 2 is given topically.




Genesis 1
11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout [j]vegetation, [k]plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth bearing fruit according to [l]their kind [m]with seed in them”; and it was so.
12 The earth produced [n]vegetation, [o]plants yielding seed according to [p]their kind, and trees bearing fruit [q]with seed in them, according to [r]their kind; and God saw that it was good.




Genesis 2 quickly jumps in on the event of the sixth day.
The first two lines describes the earth before the creation of Adam. It is possible too, that this description pertains only to the garden (Eden), that God will plant.
The plants have not sprouted yet because there was no man to cultivate, (but that doesn't necessarily mean that they won't sprout - after all they have already been spoken into creation).

I suppose the vegetations are on "stand-by," awaiting the creation of man.

Verse 6 - Interesting to note about the mist that waters the surface of the ground. There was.............. no rain BUT a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground.
WHY?
From our own experience, don't we make sure the soil is damp when we're starting seeds indoors? Before they start sprouting out?

Verses 8-9 talks about the Garden of Eden (with the plants in it), in particular.


Genesis 2
5Now no shrub of the field was yet on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to [d]cultivate the ground.
6But a [e]mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole [f]surface of the ground.
7Then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living [g]person.
8The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed.
9Out of the ground the LORD God caused every tree to grow that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[tosca1]

So you are proposing a super magic form of geology instead of actual scientific geology?

Kinda of how your entire “Kinds” argument requires super magic evolution to occur after the Flood and then suddenly stop for no apparent reason?

Give us your source.
Support your claims!

 

[tosca1]

Genesis 1 does get the scientific order correct. but then Genesis 2 offers the narrative that after the Earth was created, God made man, then plants and animals, and then the woman.

This is a better explanation:

Genesis 1 is about the creation of the universe, of the earth, of life on the earth, and of human beings in God’s image. Genesis 2 (actually Genesis 2:4-25) is about the creation, specifically, of Adam and Eve. It is about one small part of what happened on the sixth “day” of creation.
In this account, it is obvious that there were plants already in existence. Verse 5 is key to understand what is going on here.
It says, “no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up.”
In other words, at this point agriculture had not yet begun. The shrub of the field and the plant of the field represent crops which sustain human life.
At this early point, Adam and Eve were gatherers, not farmers.
It was only after they left the garden that, as a result of sin, mankind had to make a living by tilling the earth. Genesis 3:18-19 makes this clear as God tells man that he will begin to eat “the plants of the field.”
The Hebrew here is the same as in Genesis 1:5.

In Genesis 2 it says that man was created before vegetation and animals. Is this a contradiction? – Evidence for Christianity

evidenceforchristianity.org

 

[Questerr]

Give us your source.
Support your claims!

There are millions of species in the world. Creationists claim a handful of “kinds”, which is arbitrarily defined but tends to fall somewhere around the Family/Genus level, produced all of those species in the last few thousand years.

That would require a magic super evolution that violates everything science knows about how fast evolution can work.

 

[Daisy]

Genesis 2 offers the narrative that after the Earth was created, God made man, then plants and animals, and then the woman.

Genesis 1 & 2 have to be read within context of one another...Genesis 1 is basically how God prepared the earth to sustain life, Genesis 2 gives us more detail of the creation of human life...

On the third creative “day,” God caused the earth to bring forth “vegetation bearing seed according to its kind”; thus it was able to reproduce. (Ge 1:11-13) Genesis 2:5, 6 apparently describes conditions on that “day” just after God made dry land appear but before the production of grass, seed-bearing vegetation, and fruit-bearing trees. To supply needed moisture for coming plant life, Jehovah provided that mist should regularly rise from the earth to water the ground. It kept vegetation flourishing earth wide, even though there was then no rain. Although the luminaries in the heavens did not become clearly discernible in the expanse until the fourth creative “day” (Ge 1:14-16), an ample amount of diffused light was evidently available by the third “day” to foster the growth of vegetation.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200004549

 

[RAMOSS]

They ended slavery because it was MORALLY wrong from a Christian perspective, not an atheistic one. William Wilberforce tackled slavery in the UK. Please see: https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/wilberforce_william.shtml. In the United States it was Christian ethics that finally broke the back of slavery. Please see: https://americainclass.org/the-religious-roots-of-abolition/

Well, that is incorrect, since so many CHristians were quoting the bible to justify slavery.

 

[roguenuke]

Don't take it too literally. It's the younger dyras event and was purely regional. So Noah took each pair of regional animals

Which would be stupid because animals can die of any number of things, so only saving 1 pair of even just the regional animals would be very risky, especially if you had any predators on board, but even just from the living conditions, since disease does happen in animals, especially mammals, too.

 

[roguenuke]

I understand but the reason I said there were 400 ft sea level rises was to refute your claim that it was regional floods, it was global.

There was never any global flood. There is no evidence to support this. In fact, 400 feet sea level wouldn't get you a global flood that would kill everyone on the planet. And there is in fact evidence that in the past, sea level has been lower than it is now potentially by hundreds of feet itself.

 

[ttwtt78640]

So you are proposing a super magic form of geology instead of actual scientific geology?

Kinda of how your entire “Kinds” argument requires super magic evolution to occur after the Flood and then suddenly stop for no apparent reason?

All of that (and more) is easily ‘explained‘ by simply asserting that God works in mysterious ways.

 

[Questerr]

All of that (and more) is easily ‘explained‘ by simply asserting that God works in mysterious ways.

And if one does that, they can’t also claim the Flood is backed by science.

 

[roguenuke]

I suppose, they really had to be creative.
They could've easily developed a system like that used by big pet shops today - wastes accumulating below the animals through slatted floors.
Or, sloped floor allowing wastes to flow into gutters (which could lead and flow out to sea).

It certainly wasn't easy living - requiring so much labor. It was not meant to be a leisure cruise trip.

Plants must've grown at a super-rapid rate after the flood, considering all the fertilizers about!

No big pet shop has anything close to that many animals, particularly not that many different species.

 

[ttwtt78640]

And if one does that, they can’t also claim the Flood is backed by science.

Sure they can (and have done so) by stating that scientific interpretations of geological time are simply tricks - most mountain ranges formed (and the continents separated?) after the approximately one year ‘great flood’ ended which reduced humans to only 8 folks and animals of all ‘kinds’ (except a few select farm animals) to only one breeding pair. Never mind that predator animals require far more than an equal number of prey animals in order (for either predator or prey species) to survive.

 

[Questerr]

Sure they can (and have done so) by stating that scientific interpretations of geological time are simply tricks - most mountain ranges formed (and the continents separated?) after the approximately one year ‘great flood’ ended which reduced humans to only 8 folks and animals of all ‘kinds’ (except a few select farm animals) to only one breeding pair. Never mind that predator animals require far more than an equal number of prey animals in order (for either predator or prey species) to survive.

Which means they are ignoring science.