The Fallacy Of Biblical Stories, Part 1: The Great Flood & Noah's Ark

[MikePrime]

Yes, but some people do not view it as such. They take it all literally, such as the Flood myth.

A 400 foot rise will not flood the planet, as the Flood myth itself depicts. That's the whole point.

I understand but the reason I said there were 400 ft sea level rises was to refute your claim that it was regional floods, it was global.

 

[Gordy327]

I understand but the reason I said there were 400 ft sea level rises was to refute your claim that it was regional floods, it was global.

Either way, ancient people may have viewed it as global. Or at least something which the bible later exaggerated.

 

[tosca1]

Here’s the refutation: “Kind” has no scientific basis or objective standard. Creationists change what it means as convenient for their lies.

Of course it has no scientific basis. There was no science in the beginning when "KIND" was first uttered during creation!

Science discovered that some species belong to the same KIND. Like the example I gave you!
Like lions, tigers and what we know as house cats - they are all descendants from just two cats in the ark!

Lol, that brings us to what, #13 for The Bible?
Science discovers what ".....according to KINDS," means? Consistent to what the Bible suggests!

 

[tosca1]

Tosca, you ain't got a clue and once again show your unwillingness to read what others have posted in the thread. The study at Uni of Leicester found that the calculated weight of 70,000 animals, none of them very large, could be fitted upon a container of the size described in the OT. However, the vessel would not have been able to stay afloat in any normal sea conditions, nevermind storm waves. Then there is the ever so small matter, as other have mentioned - where would all the shit go? Then we have a problem with holding sufficient food and water for the beasts and the 8 people in the crew.

from the linked article:
"It is a separate matter whether all of the animals would fit inside an ark of these dimensions – the physics students were simply calculating the buoyancy of the ark."

Once again, a misleading headline causes True Believers to shout, OH Thank you Lord Jesus! Your Daddy was the best evah!
The students did their calculations using the estimated weight of the 70,000 animals but not bothering to look at the space required for each pair to survive on a boat that wouldn't stay afloat during any sea voyage.

Tell me where exactly does it say that and I'll read it. Pinpoint where in the article it is. Which paragraph?
I'm not reading some posts that doesn't notify me, so I wouldn't know the arguments given by others.

As for where would all the "shit" go. What shit are talking about?

 

[tosca1]

What happened to Noah’s Ark is that there is zero reason to believe it actually existed.

You can't say that for certain.
There are geological evidence that it could have happened.

 

[Arlette]

...I believe the Bible...

Why?

 

[tosca1]

Did you even read the article? I addressed all of that.

Because they wouldn't be on a boat, duh! But marine animals generally require either fresh water or salt water. It's likely salt water marine life would die off as the salinity of the oceans changed from a deluge of fresh water.

I'll have to go back and read your article.

That's quite the logic pretzeling you have going there.

And what do you base that on? Horses alone took 50 million years to evolve.

They are still under the same "kinds."

Sounds like theistic defense of dogma.

No, atheism simply isn't convinced unless there's evidence.

In other words, magic.

That's matter of opinion.

We know that atheism cannot afford to be objective and open-minded.
It's a close-minded ideology..........based on faith.

 

[tosca1]

Can you give me examples.

Did you read a teeny bit farther down?
Check #34 again.

There are around 12 and counting. I posted the link.

 

[tosca1]

This is the type of nonsense answer that religious people are forced to give when cornered by logic.

The question remains unanswered. Water that fills a space has ........ filled the space. There is no place for it to go.

@Somerville



I answered you precisely. They went back to where they came from.

Where does rain come from? I'm talking about the water cycle here. How does water cycle works?
Rain water went back where it's supposed to go.
What about the other excess water?


You do know that it's not only rain that created the flood, right?


Genesis 7
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.



The springs in the ocean deep had burst forth and released MORE water coming out from under the ocean floor!
Water went back to where they came from!

A Massive Freshwater Sea Is Buried Beneath the Atlantic Ocean​

This water isn't young, either. The researchers said they suspect that much of it is from the last ice age.

An analysis found that the fresh water wasn't scattered here and there, but was instead continuous, starting at the shoreline and extending out on the continental shelf. In some places, the aquifer stretched as far as 75 miles (120 km) offshore.


The feature also ran deep, starting at about 600 feet (182 meters) below the ocean's floor and ending at about 1,200 feet (365 m) below the seafloor. If later research shows that the aquifer is larger, it could rival the Ogallala Aquifer, a huge freshwater pool that supplies groundwater to eight Great Plains states, from South Dakota to Texas.

A Massive Freshwater Sea Is Buried Beneath the Atlantic Ocean

This is one of the largest freshwater aquifers of its kind.

www.livescience.com

 

[devildavid]

I'll have to go back and read your article.

They are still under the same "kinds."

That's matter of opinion.

We know that atheism cannot afford to be objective and open-minded.
It's a close-minded ideology..........based on faith.

Atheism is not an ideology. Neither is theism. Only theism is based on belief. That is a matter of fact.

 

[tosca1]

This is the type of nonsense answer that religious people are forced to give when cornered by logic.

The question remains unanswered. Water that fills a space has ........ filled the space. There is no place for it to go.

Still on the water cycle:


Genesis 8
But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded.
2 Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.
3 The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down,



Here's a great source explaining it in details, including videos.

Wind is involved in the water cycle by increasing evaporation and transpiration as well as transporting water through the atmosphere.

Question: What Is Wind In The Water Cycle - BikeHike

Wind is involved in the water cycle by increasing evaporation and transpiration as well as transporting water through the atmosphere. Does wind drive the water cycle? The atmosphere is full

bikehike.org

#14 for The Bible.
Take note that the Bible had shown the relevance of wind with water cycle.............................. long before science discovered this process!

 

[Questerr]

Of course it has no scientific basis. There was no science in the beginning when "KIND" was first uttered during creation!

Science discovered that some species belong to the same KIND. Like the example I gave you!
Like lions, tigers and what we know as house cats - they are all descendants from just two cats in the ark!

Lol, that brings us to what, #13 for The Bible?
Science discovers what ".....according to KINDS," means? Consistent to what the Bible suggests!

It has no basis in science *when used by modern Creationists who claim to be doing science*.

They change the definition of the term constantly based on whatever is convenient for them.

For lions, tigers, and all other cats to be descended from two cat “kinds” on the ark would require super evolution working thousands of times faster than is scientifically possible. You understand that, right?

 

[Questerr]

You can't say that for certain.
There are geological evidence that it could have happened.

No there isn’t. Science definitively rejects any global flood occurring at any point when humans existed.

 

[tosca1]

No there isn’t. Science definitively rejects any global flood occurring at any point when humans existed.

Not true.
That's a typical close-minded response from an atheist. Like I said, atheism does not afford you to be objective.



The scientific community doesn't wholly doubt the possibility of a great flood, but it has yet to answer the questions of where and when it might have happened.

The Great Flood: More Than a Myth?

Many cultures have a flood myth -- an ancient story of a deluge that swallowed the Earth. So could a great flood really have happened, and how would we be able to tell?

science.howstuffworks.com

We have to try to keep an open mind. We can't dismiss something outright when nothing is definitely concluded.

Just as we are learning more about the cosmos as technology advances, the same can be said to other areas.
Here's an interesting lists of materials that you might want to read.

Noah's Ark and Flood | The Institute for Creation Research

www.icr.org

 

[Lloyd Christmas]

"People cited violation of the First Amendment when a New Jersey schoolteacher asserted that evolution and the Big Bang are not scientific and that Noah's ark carried dinosaurs. This case is not about the need to separate church and state; it's about the need to separate ignorant, scientifically illiterate people from the ranks of teachers." ---Neil deGrasse Tyson

This article is the first in a series of articles I plan to write (depending on my available time and interest) objectively examining popular biblical stories to establish their veracity or likelihood of having actually occurred. While many people might view the stories as fables and allegories, some do view them as actual, literal events that have occurred (Looking at you Ken Hamm, lol). These stories have significantly influenced people and societies throughout the centuries. So I will analyze the empirical evidence which either supports or refutes the stories as portrayed. For this Part 1, I will examine the biblical Great Flood and Noah's Ark mythos.

In a nutshell, the Great Flood/Noah's Ark goes like this: God was ticked off at humanity's shenanigans and decided the best way to deal with the situation was genocide via mass drowning (save for Noah & few of his followers, along with certain animals). So God instructed Noah to gather two of every animal and build a great ark to house them during the 40-day/night deluge that would flood the world and kill virtually every living thing on the planet. Afterwards, he would release the animals and themselves to repopulate their respective species.

This story has so many problems with it, it's difficult to know where to begin. To simplify, I will not be focusing on other cultures earlier flood myths, which probably influenced the creation of the biblical flood myth. Neither will I be focusing on God's own imperfection (or incompetence), as his Creation had some major design flaws forcing him to essentially reboot Creation over again. I also won't delve into the implausibility of rapid repopulation over a short time after the flood either. So here are some problems with the Flood story:

1. The sheer number of animals that had to be aboard the Ark : For this, I'm going to assume that the animals on the ark were all land animals. According to the California Academy of Sciences, there are approximately 6.5 million species of land animals. I'll be conservative and round down to 6 million, give or take a million. Since we have two of every animal, the ark must be capable of holding and supporting 12 MILLION animals for an extended duration, without additional support. That alone makes the Flood story quite implausible (even more so if one includes dinosaurs as passengers). Anyone who has been in a pet store will know housing many animals takes up quite a lot of space and resources. To put that into perspective, a single adult elephant (the largest land mammal in the world) can weigh upwards of 14,000 pounds, grow up to 35 feet long, and eat 200-600 pounds of food and drink 50 gallons of water PER DAY! And Noah had 12 million animals to feed and water daily, which is an impossible task for the relatively few people aboard the ark (never mind cleaning up after the animals too). In addition, it is supposed to believed that many of those animals traveled thousands of miles, some over the ocean, and from remote places like Antarctica, outside of their natural environments and ecosystems, in time to board the ark before the flood. Really?

the likely real story, a local area flooded, some farmer had a row boat with some of his animals on it, that turned into world flood and every species. If anybody actually believe the Noah's Ark story they are ridiculous.

 

[Questerr]

Not true.
That's a typical close-minded response from an atheist. Like I said, atheism does not afford you to be objective.



The scientific community doesn't wholly doubt the possibility of a great flood, but it has yet to answer the questions of where and when it might have happened.

The Great Flood: More Than a Myth?

Many cultures have a flood myth -- an ancient story of a deluge that swallowed the Earth. So could a great flood really have happened, and how would we be able to tell?

science.howstuffworks.com

We have to try to keep an open mind. We can't dismiss something outright when nothing is definitely concluded.

Just as we are learning more about the cosmos as technology advances, the same can be said to other areas.
Here's an interesting lists of materials that you might want to read.

Noah's Ark and Flood | The Institute for Creation Research

www.icr.org

ICR, like AIG, requires its “scientists” to sign a pledge vowing they will never contradict the Bible no matter what the evidence shows.

And you realize that link you shared to “How Stuff Works” (NOT A PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL BUT A ****ING BLOG) confirms science does not in any way posit a global flood occurring in the time humanity has existed but instead that regional flood events could have been falsely interpreted as a global flood, yes?

 

[Questerr]

the likely real story, a local area flooded, some farmer had a row boat with some of his animals on it, that turned into world flood and every species. If anybody actually believe the Noah's Ark story they are ridiculous.

But Creationists can’t admit that possibility because it would mean the Bible was wrong when it claims the flood killed every human in the world except those I. The Ark, which in turn means the Bible contains falsehoods, which in turn means it’s not “the divinely inspired Word of God”.

 

[Gordy327]

the likely real story, a local area flooded, some farmer had a row boat with some of his animals on it, that turned into world flood and every species. If anybody actually believe the Noah's Ark story they are ridiculous.

That would be more plausible.

 

[Somerville]

Tell me where exactly does it say that and I'll read it. Pinpoint where in the article it is. Which paragraph?
I'm not reading some posts that doesn't notify me, so I wouldn't know the arguments given by others.

As for where would all the "shit" go. What shit are talking about?

Try reading the article that YOU linked to.

Animals poop, doncha know? Think about how much feces from 70,000 animals would be laid out on the decks of the ark every day.

 

[Terryj]

@Somerville



I answered you precisely. They went back to where they came from.

Where does rain come from? I'm talking about the water cycle here. How does water cycle works?
Rain water went back where it's supposed to go.
What about the other excess water?


You do know that it's not only rain that created the flood, right?


Genesis 7
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.



The springs in the ocean deep had burst forth and released MORE water coming out from under the ocean floor!
Water went back to where they came from!

A Massive Freshwater Sea Is Buried Beneath the Atlantic Ocean​

This water isn't young, either. The researchers said they suspect that much of it is from the last ice age.

An analysis found that the fresh water wasn't scattered here and there, but was instead continuous, starting at the shoreline and extending out on the continental shelf. In some places, the aquifer stretched as far as 75 miles (120 km) offshore.


The feature also ran deep, starting at about 600 feet (182 meters) below the ocean's floor and ending at about 1,200 feet (365 m) below the seafloor. If later research shows that the aquifer is larger, it could rival the Ogallala Aquifer, a huge freshwater pool that supplies groundwater to eight Great Plains states, from South Dakota to Texas.

A Massive Freshwater Sea Is Buried Beneath the Atlantic Ocean

This is one of the largest freshwater aquifers of its kind.

www.livescience.com

You do realize that all the water that has been on Earth is still on Earth today, water just doesn't go away. All the water on Earth can be found in 3 forms, liquid, solid or gas, there is no such thing as new or old water, it is just water. The very same water the animals drank 100 million years ago is the very same water we drink today. So it becomes a valid question as the where all this water went that covered the Earth. To understand flooding you need to understand soil and how soil relates to how and why floods occur. There had to be a reason for "the springs of the great deep to burst forth" other than "God did it". What would create the need pressure from with in the Earth to cause all this subterranean water to burst forth?

 

[tosca1]

ICR, like AIG, requires its “scientists” to sign a pledge vowing they will never contradict the Bible no matter what the evidence shows.

And you realize that link you shared to “How Stuff Works” (NOT A PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC JOURNAL BUT A ****ING BLOG) confirms science does not in any way posit a global flood occurring in the time humanity has existed but instead that regional flood events could have been falsely interpreted as a global flood, yes?

Refute the message!
never mind hiding behind the pledge!

Who cares about "peer-review!" Peer-reviews don't have the credibility anymore!

Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals​

Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Publishing: The peer-review scam​

Publishing: The peer-review scam - Nature

When a handful of authors were caught reviewing their own papers, it exposed weaknesses in modern publishing systems. Editors are trying to plug the holes.

www.nature.com

There are thousands of legitimate journals out there beyond the well-known powerhouses like Science or the BMJ or Nature itself, but the scientific community is vaster still and the competition for pages is keen. That has led to the rise of a staggering 10,000 predatory journals, which both charge fees to publish unvetted work and recruit scientists to fill editorial positions, lending a patina of credibility to their generally shabby operations and offering a prestigious sounding title to the scientists in return. By 2015, approximately half-a-million dubious papers had been published this way.

Dozens of Scientific Journals Offered Her a Job. But She Didn't Exist

A new “sting operation” study exposes the problem with sham science publications

time.com

Peer-Review Scandal - NeuroLogica Blog

Biomed Central, a UK company that publishes 277 peer-reviewed journals, announced that it is retracting 43 articles because of "fabricated" peer-review. Peer-review is a process that many scientific journals use to vet submitted articles. Typically an editor will review the article but also send...

theness.com

 

[Questerr]

Refute the message!
never mind hiding behind the pledge!

Who cares about "peer-review!" Peer-reviews don't have the credibility anymore!

Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals​

Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Publishing: The peer-review scam​

Publishing: The peer-review scam - Nature

When a handful of authors were caught reviewing their own papers, it exposed weaknesses in modern publishing systems. Editors are trying to plug the holes.

www.nature.com

There are thousands of legitimate journals out there beyond the well-known powerhouses like Science or the BMJ or Nature itself, but the scientific community is vaster still and the competition for pages is keen. That has led to the rise of a staggering 10,000 predatory journals, which both charge fees to publish unvetted work and recruit scientists to fill editorial positions, lending a patina of credibility to their generally shabby operations and offering a prestigious sounding title to the scientists in return. By 2015, approximately half-a-million dubious papers had been published this way.

Dozens of Scientific Journals Offered Her a Job. But She Didn't Exist

A new “sting operation” study exposes the problem with sham science publications

time.com

Peer-Review Scandal - NeuroLogica Blog

Biomed Central, a UK company that publishes 277 peer-reviewed journals, announced that it is retracting 43 articles because of "fabricated" peer-review. Peer-review is a process that many scientific journals use to vet submitted articles. Typically an editor will review the article but also send...

theness.com

Peer review isn’t perfect. Nobody has ever claimed science is perfect. But science does deliver actual useful accurate information about the world. Unlike religion, which has never once disproven anything from science.

ICR engages in lying as a business. They purposefully distort and omit evidence because they start with their conclusion and then cherry pick data to match Igor just fabricate it when they can’t do that.

Also, I did directly address the message of your link: do you agree with your own source that there has never once been a global flood during any time humanity has existed, but instead only local/regional floods that were falsely interpreted as global floods? That’s what your own link says. Do you stand by it?

 

[tosca1]

Animals poop, doncha know? Think about how much feces from 70,000 animals would be laid out on the decks of the ark every day.

I suppose, they really had to be creative.
They could've easily developed a system like that used by big pet shops today - wastes accumulating below the animals through slatted floors.
Or, sloped floor allowing wastes to flow into gutters (which could lead and flow out to sea).

It certainly wasn't easy living - requiring so much labor. It was not meant to be a leisure cruise trip.

Plants must've grown at a super-rapid rate after the flood, considering all the fertilizers about!

 

[tosca1]

You do realize that all the water that has been on Earth is still on Earth today, water just doesn't go away. All the water on Earth can be found in 3 forms, liquid, solid or gas, there is no such thing as new or old water, it is just water. The very same water the animals drank 100 million years ago is the very same water we drink today. So it becomes a valid question as the where all this water went that covered the Earth. To understand flooding you need to understand soil and how soil relates to how and why floods occur. There had to be a reason for "the springs of the great deep to burst forth" other than "God did it". What would create the need pressure from with in the Earth to cause all this subterranean water to burst forth?

Yes. I do realize that.
Hence I said, they went back to where they came from.

Who cares about the reasons why the water gushed forth from under the ocean floor.
That's not the main point! Hahahaha


Here is the eye-boggling point:

Fact: The BIBLE KNEW ABOUT SPRINGS IN THE OCEAN, and WATER UNDER THE OCEAN FLOOR LONG, LONG, LONG, BEFORE MODERN SCIENCE EVEN KNEW OF THEM!
Lol - when was underwater springs discovered? 1977

When was water under the ocean floor discovered? 2015

Scientists found a gigantic freshwater aquifer below the Atlantic. It has enough water to fill 1 billion Olympic swimming pools | CNN

The freshwater aquifer lies about 600 feet below the floor of the Atlantic Ocean and stretches from New Jersey to Massachusetts.

www.cnn.com

Imagine that!
600 feet BELOW the ocean floor, is another body of water!

 

[Questerr]

I suppose, they really had to be creative.
They could've easily developed a system like that used by big pet shops today - wastes accumulating below the animals through slatted floors.
Or, sloped floor allowing wastes to flow into gutters (which could lead and flow out to sea).

It certainly wasn't easy living - requiring so much labor. It was not meant to be a leisure cruise trip.

Plants must've grown at a super-rapid rate after the flood, considering all the fertilizers about!

The amount of labor would have been impossible for the handful of people on the Ark.

And plants shouldn’t have grown AT ALL after the flood considering the topsoil soaked in salt for a year.