So this mentally ill person walks in a gun store, oh you've heard this one huh?

[lizzie]

That is a valid point you have. Unfortunately all scenarios cannot be accounted for. I'm not a fan of guns, so my only take on them is that they shouldn't exist.

I am a big gun proponent, and since they already do exist, and will likely always exist (for the foreseeable future), I prefer to have an equal advantage when it comes to my own defense.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Technically, you are mistaken. Those rights are listed in the Declaration of Independence, and while the 10th Amendment would seem to include them apparently many people within our government don’t think so.

Even so, the “pursuit of happiness” is listed, not the “guarantee of happiness;” thus you are not guaranteed a right to a job, or an apartment. BTW a driver’s license is a requirement necessary for the legal privilege of driving, and you aren’t guaranteed one, you earn one.



Apparently you are unaware that over 65 million American adults have a criminal record. That means 1 in 4 American adults would be excluded from gun ownership, and you would be granting the State the power to increase that number by merely arresting someone.

Also, unless you are a practicing mental health professional, who are you to determine what constitutes dangerous mental health issues leading to loss of gun rights?

Now I ignored all of your “questions” because they are red herrings with little or no relevance to the issue being discussed. I also ignored your weapons background because that also fails to support your credibility. Why? No gun rights supporter would use the gun control arguments you profess.

Finally, I ignored the few suggestions you made because I also support gun safety and familiarization training for people who wish to own a gun, but as a matter of simple common sense not government regulation. Why? Government would make the pre-requirements so onerous as to limit access to those they deem worthy, creating tacit gun control.

The bottom line is that had more citizens been trained and authorized to CCW the psycho killer would have been gunned down by the first armed person to see him kill an unarmed citizen.

CORRECTION: I noticed a typo in my prior post. I meant to type 9th Amendment not 10th Amendment.

 

[presluc]

So are you really interested in accepting the facts or are you just planning on being a dick throughout the course of the thread?

When anyone goes to a FFL firearms dealer to purchase a weapon, that dealer runs a NICS check. That check comes back go or no go. When his background check was done it came back clear and the dealer sold the weapon. Pretty basic stuff...just like Goshin said. If you have a problem with what info is or isnt in the NICS system, take it up with the fed.

And while you are still on about the NICS system, try to wrap your brain around the fact that he carried a Secret Security clearance requiring an even more extensive series of background checks and still passed.

You best step off Vance , slander won't work when facts are there.
Fact this man was stopped and arrested by the police for shooting out a person's tire's
Fact he told the police he had blacked out and did not remember shooting out the tires .
Fact no further information was given to the dealer
Fact no further information was ask for by the dealer
Fact after 12 people lay dead shot with a weapon sold by the dealer
Fact did the dealer say maybe there should be more information
Fact did the nics say maybe we should update our data no
Bottom line 12 people are dead everybody is just throwing up their hands and saying oh well another day in America?????eace

 

[presluc]

I've spent a lot of time in gun shops over the years and I've seen some pretty goofy people in there trying to purchase guns. I've also seen them refused service when their responses to certain questions raise an eyebrow. Most FFL's (and most sellers in general) are pretty leery about who they sell to. If you come into the store acting like a jackass or a freak you're probably not going to get served.

So if you come into a gun store acting like a jackass or a freak you're probably not going to get served huh?
So if you know that , and I know that , you think the criminally insane might know that too?
An old SAYING for ya "IT'S ALWAYS THE QUITE ONES"
What too old, how about this one, " HE WAS ALMOST CURED FROM HIS ILLNESS"
Or this one "so he shot a gun in a public place at some tires no big deal anyway he couldn't remember doing it", he did nothing wrong he's just a little mentally ill, it's not like he can get a gun easy in America"??eace

 

[Lutherf]

So if you come into a gun store acting like a jackass or a freak you're probably not going to get served huh?
So if you know that , and I know that , you think the criminally insane might know that too?
An old SAYING for ya "IT'S ALWAYS THE QUITE ONES"
What too old, how about this one, " HE WAS ALMOST CURED FROM HIS ILLNESS"
Or this one "so he shot a gun in a public place at some tires no big deal anyway he couldn't remember doing it", he did nothing wrong he's just a little mentally ill, it's not like he can get a gun easy in America"??eace

Most FFL's are not required to also read minds so they have to go off the best information they have. If the guy is acting normal, doesn't say something off the wall and passes a NICS check then they've fulfilled their due diligence. I don't blame any dealer who has acted within the law and still sold a firearm to a loose nut.

 

[presluc]

I would suggest that the primary problem sits with the political will to do the things that would be most effective.

Our politicians have no problem pushing for restrictions, background checks, registration, microstamping, taxing, etc, etc. What you don't hear them saying is "we really need to crack down on street crime" or "we really need to work on family values" or "we really need to work on getting the mentally ill the help that they need".

Do you know why they don't say those things?

It's because whenever they do the ACLU goes ballistic. Putting more cops on the street is considered to be racist. Promoting family values is gender biased. Helping the mentally ill is just an excuse to imprison more people.

Even though Jared Loughner was nuttier than a fruitcake everybody just shook their head and went about their business because if they said he was crazy then his parents could sue the school. Even though Nidal Hassan was known to have extremist views nobody touched him because he was just expressing himself. James Holmes was being treated for his issues but nothing was reported because of privacy concerns. This guy in DC......hell, the RI cops called the damned Navy cops and nobody did anything because.......apparently just because.

If you want to start improving the situation then great, start by getting the elected officials to focus on the actual problems instead of some grandstanding maneuver to get their face on the front page of the paper.

I think I see where you are going with this the ACLU GOES BALLISTIC RIGHT.?
I sat to Hell with the ACLU bunch of money grabbing lawyers anyway.

A certain president had a plaque on his desk it read "THE BUCK STOPS HERE".
Maybe you've heard of it.

It only takes one voice to say this is wrong, where the blame falls does not matter as long as it is fixed doesn't matter but something is wrong from the time a mentally ill person walks into a gun store until the time 12 people are laying dead .
If this was something that did not happen that often ok , but it is getting more regular to where it's an every month occurrence , what happens when it's an everyday occurrence ?eace

 

[Lutherf]

I think I see where you are going with this the ACLU GOES BALLISTIC RIGHT.?
I sat to Hell with the ACLU bunch of money grabbing lawyers anyway.

A certain president had a plaque on his desk it read "THE BUCK STOPS HERE".
Maybe you've heard of it.

It only takes one voice to say this is wrong, where the blame falls does not matter as long as it is fixed doesn't matter but something is wrong from the time a mentally ill person walks into a gun store until the time 12 people are laying dead .
If this was something that did not happen that often ok , but it is getting more regular to where it's an every month occurrence , what happens when it's an everyday occurrence ?eace

As has been mentioned myriad times in this thread there were a great many places that this guy could have been stopped and to focus on the one place that is reliant on all the others is ridiculous.

 

[presluc]

Okay, then I'll ask you again. In what way do you intend to identify mentally ill people who you want to prevent from purchasing a gun?

It's very easy to say "We shouldn't let crazy people buy guns" (and it's not necessarily a bad idea conceptually). But it's much harder to actually put into practice. Unless the person goes and sees a mental health professional (many don't) and unless that mental health professional decides they are dangerous (that's not always apparent before they snap and do something like this), and unless there's a system for reporting that and getting it put into the NICS database (there isn't right now, and there would probably be issues with patient confidentiality) how are we going to identify a dangerous mentally ill person and keep them from buying a gun?

So please be specific and elaborate how exactly you'd put this new program into place.

Well information would be a good start.
How easy is it to say so this guy got a discharge from the military that's a bit shaky , so this giuy got arrested for shooting a firearm in publci , so this guy tells the cops he shot the tires off a car and had a blackout and don't remember doing it.
All this happened and he's ok to get a gun in 10 minutes ,Would you sell him a gun if he lived in your neighborhood with that information>???

Well one thing for sure, I may not have the answers but one thing I know these 12 people that died could have been avoidedeace

 

[presluc]

As has been mentioned myriad times in this thread there were a great many places that this guy could have been stopped and to focus on the one place that is reliant on all the others is ridiculous.

To fix a problem
Ya gotta start somewhere, why not here?
To fix a problem
Ya got to start sometime why not now.?.

I have stated it doesn't matter whose fault it is something is wrong.

We've had that old 2nd amendment debate which meant nothing then don't now.
The 2nd amendment isn't going anywhere I support the 2nd amendment it is in the constitution.
However the 2nd amendment to the Constitution of the United States was here long before the NRA became an association and long before the gun clubs of America were formed..
In the 1700's no one was sup[posed to sell guns to Indians you know why?
In the 180o's you were not supposed to let African Americans in the south have guns you know why?
In the 60's no matter how clean a hippie's conviction record was they could not buy a gun except off another hippie. you know why.
And yet you ask why should there be an investigation after how many deaths this year from mentally ill people with guns including children??
eace

 

[Lutherf]

To fix a problem
Ya gotta start somewhere, why not here?
To fix a problem
Ya got to start sometime why not now.?......

Because it's akin to figuring out that you have a transmission problem with your 20 year old truck and trying to "fix" it by penalizing the guy that sold it to you.

 

[presluc]

Because it's akin to figuring out that you have a transmission problem with your 20 year old truck and trying to "fix" it by penalizing the guy that sold it to you.

Sir if one thing I know this is not the last debate on the subject of a mentally ill person walking into a gun shop buying a gun and killing people

My first one was Va Tech, since then there have been others the excuses are almost identical except not so much 2nd amendment anymore.
Not my fault says the gun dealer, not my fault says the data base, not my fault says the state government, not my fault says the federal government , nothing can be done says the people.

Not if, WHEN this happens again it may be some one important enough to say ,"hey wait a minute"?

More people will die this way unless something is done.
One other thing ,mentally ill people that may want guns are not territorial, they are in every state in America. eace