So this mentally ill person walks in a gun store, oh you've heard this one huh?

[SMTA]

Why is it each time {and there have been more than one} that a mentally ill person buys a gun leagle then kills innocent people , and somebody dares to ask why, it's called armchair lawyering?

Why can't somebody say the gun shop owners SLOPPY BACKGROUND CHECKS.eace

Because the gun shop did not perform the check - they called NICS.

Educate yourself.

 

[SMTA]

I don't think NICS or the Federal Golvernment owns a gun shop in Virginia that is private business.

Didn't get the shotgun from NICS or the Federal Government , got it at a gun store in Virginia.eace

Do you not comprehend English?

 

[SMTA]

Our legal system used to have slaves , our legal system at one time did not permit women to vote.
Our legal system changed then it can change again.
eace

Our legal system never had slaves.

Don't comprehend history either?

 

[SMTA]

Not quite , you left out the law of average or odds if you prefer.

Because to my knowledge no gun dealer has ever been charged for any penalty.
That's pretty long odds for the amount of innocent people dead including kids .
You are mistaking my use of the word "gun control" for gun purchase control.

Let me explain it this way in an interrogative sentence.

Why doesn't America want Iran to have nuclear weapons ?
Answer, they are afraid they would use them or give them to somebody that would use them against America.
Think like that only on a smaller scale.eace

You have no idea about what the BATFE has done with any gun shop.

Don't understand that relationship either.

Given all this lack of knowledge, you need to quit while you are so behind.

 

[lizzie]

Our legal system used to have slaves , our legal system at one time did not permit women to vote.
Our legal system changed then it can change again.
eace

But our legal system preserves the individual as innocent until proven guilty, and if he is not convicted of the crime, then he is considered innocent. Innocent individuals should not have their constitutional rights taken away, just because they were arrested on suspicion.

 

[presluc]

If distraction won't work with you, why would you think it would work with me?

The thread topic sets up a scenario about a mentally ill person walking into a store.

You're bringing up illegal gun sales.

What does that have to do with anything?

ZERO. Much like your point.

What happened to the word illegal?
Illegal immigrants are not really illegal.
And if a mentally ill person buys a gun kills people should it be illegal or legal?
My point sir answer the question pick one yes or no , no long speeches please ,been there done thateace

 

[lizzie]

Background checks are useful to weed out the people who have previously committed a gun related offense. In addition to that, you should have to take a psychological exam. You can complain all you want if you don't like that idea.

You don't get to drive a car because you bought it. You have to get a license and go through all of that before you can drive. You shouldn't be allowed to get a gun just because you want to buy one. This list can go on and on and that is why we have rules and laws in place.

Finally someone with an idea rather than an excuse.
My compliments sir.eace

Except for the little fact that just because someone is deemed psychologically fit today, does not mean that he will be 6 weeks from now. People who are mentally unstable aren't just born that way, and continue to be for their entire lifetimes. Sometimes, and it's not uncommon, perfectly functioning humans go from what we consider stable to unstable in a matter of days, weeks, months, or even years.

 

[presluc]

Gun dealers don't do the background check. They make a call to the Feds with the name and SS# and wait about 10 minutes for a decision, so if you want to place blame, once again you'll need to look at the government...

Odd I put in an application for an apartment it takes 2 weeks at least before I get called back even for drivers licence they send it to you in the mail 5 to 10 business days.
However for some mentally ill person, with an arrest record to buy a gun 10 minutes?
Am I missing something?eace

 

[lizzie]

Odd I put in an application for an apartment it takes 2 weeks at least before I get called back even for drivers licence they send it to you in the mail 5 to 10 business days.
However for some mentally ill person, with an arrest record to buy a gun 10 minutes?
Am I missing something?eace

What you are missing is that we don't penalize people for arrest records- only for convictions. As to the mentally ill issue, see my post above.

 

[presluc]

So then you don't actually want to prevent mentally ill people from getting guns, you want to prevent criminals from getting guns. The background checks we already have do that.

I assumed that you meant you wanted to find a way to prevent mentally ill people with no criminal record from buying guns.

Your uhh... BACKGROUND CHECKS AIN'T WORKING Va Tech, Denver, Ft Worth the list is long .
Now you can play the blame game shuffle, you can say it was the governments fault ,it was bad information , it was the treatment of mentally ills fault and a host of other excuses.
BOTTOM LINE, THIS MENTALLY ILL PERSON WALKED INTO A GUN STORE WAS APPROVED {EVEN WITH AN ARREST RECORD OF MISS USE OF GUNS A SHAKY MILITARY DISCHARGE} TO BUY A SHOTGUN , DID AND KILLED 12 PEOPLE.

Questions .
1 Who benefited from this sale?
2 Was it the mentally ill person , no he's dead
3 Was it the 12 victims , no they too are dead.
4 Was it the military establishment, don't think so when bad press hits the military people tend to lose what rank they have and maybe Leavenworth..
5 So what was the price of that shotgun again?eace

 

[Lutherf]

At least according to the news of the Naval yard shootings yesterday.
Alexis was arrested Sept. 4, 2010, by Fort Worth police after he was accused of recklessly discharging a firearm inside the limits of a municipality, according to the Tarrant County District Attorney's Office.Alexis was previously arrested on May 6, 2004, in Seattle for shooting out the tires of another man's vehicle in what he later described as "an anger-fueled 'blackout,'" according to the Seattle Police Department.
He told cops he could not remember firing his gun at the man's car until an hour after the incident.
A Seattle detective spoke to Alexis' father, who was "curious" about the incident.

It was said he bought a shotgun in Virginia.
Now I could go into that he was said to be under treatment for mental disorder and paranoia and insomnia, but that's a bit of old news we've heard it before, VA. Tech, Ft. Hood a theater in Denver, and the list goes on and the band led by the NRA plays on.
I support the 2nd amendment, I do not support fast and quick background checks, I do not support mentally ill people having or able to get guns.

Ladies and Gentlemen I await your comments and views on this subject.eace

While I understand your concern no amount of background checking is going to work if the data never makes it into the system.

I don't know much about the Seattle incident except that it's been reported to have happened. If he wasn't convicted of a crime and nobody checked his mental health then there would be no record to do a background check on. In Ft Worth no charges were filed so, again, a background check would have been useless. Finally, when the cops in Newport Rhode Island called the Navy Yard PD to report that they just had contact with this guy and he was ranting about "vibrations" the PD did nothing so, once again, no background check would have been found anything.

 

[molten_dragon]

Your uhh... BACKGROUND CHECKS AIN'T WORKING Va Tech, Denver, Ft Worth the list is long .
Now you can play the blame game shuffle, you can say it was the governments fault ,it was bad information , it was the treatment of mentally ills fault and a host of other excuses.
BOTTOM LINE, THIS MENTALLY ILL PERSON WALKED INTO A GUN STORE WAS APPROVED {EVEN WITH AN ARREST RECORD OF MISS USE OF GUNS A SHAKY MILITARY DISCHARGE} TO BUY A SHOTGUN , DID AND KILLED 12 PEOPLE.

Okay, then I'll ask you again. In what way do you intend to identify mentally ill people who you want to prevent from purchasing a gun?

It's very easy to say "We shouldn't let crazy people buy guns" (and it's not necessarily a bad idea conceptually). But it's much harder to actually put into practice. Unless the person goes and sees a mental health professional (many don't) and unless that mental health professional decides they are dangerous (that's not always apparent before they snap and do something like this), and unless there's a system for reporting that and getting it put into the NICS database (there isn't right now, and there would probably be issues with patient confidentiality) how are we going to identify a dangerous mentally ill person and keep them from buying a gun?

So please be specific and elaborate how exactly you'd put this new program into place.

 

[presluc]

Of course you could "go on" but it wouldn't matter, unless a person has been convicted of a crime they must be treated as any other citizen who was arrested but not convicted; as if they were not guilty. Furthermore, pleading out leads to a conviction and turning states evidence does not alway lead to freedom either. Those who turn "states evidence" unsually fall into one of two categories; either not truly culpable/minorly culpable, or their evidence is so important that they get to plead to a lesser charge in exchange for their testimony.



Well that's because the right to bear arms is just that; a RIGHT guaranteed by the Constitution. You see any right to a job, housing, or a drivers license listed in the U.S. Constitution?

Again, there is no way to absolutely prevent people from acting violently...unless you lock us all up in solitary. I guess you don't want that to happen anytime soon, so what's your point?



WRONG! The person who acted out violently is to blame. Period!



Cry me a river...sheesh. If it were up to me there would be no "background checks." People need to understand that self-defense is their own responsibility. Law enforcement cannot save you unless government enacts rules and regulations to give them so much power over you that you have enslaved yourself, and become their victim.

A better way? Start teaching people to be responsible citizens, watching out for themselves and each other. That way next time someone pulls a gun and starts shooting away? 50 people trained in weapons uses shoot him dead.

So you telling me if a known drug dealer with ties to a drug cartel gets arrested and walks on a technicality the drug unit is just going to stop watching him ?


Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness unless I'm mistaken.
So if the background checks on guns take 10 minutes then getting an apartment or an application for a job answer should take 10 minutes.
Happiness is a place to live and a job , not a 12 gauge pump.

Not asking to stop people from acting violently asking that mentally ill people with a record should not be able to buy a gun and kill people.

So what are we to do open up all the asylums, fire all the psychiatrist, no more treatment for the criminally insane , after all they need no help they are just "acting out violently"

So if these two gangs moved across the street and started dealing guns you would have no problem? where do you live?
Cry you a river? What the hell is that?
You got me confused with one of those anti gun nuts? Man you are really off the rails.
I got my first weapon when I was 14 a single 22 shot rifle, got pretty good with it too.
Learned how to use an M 16 courtesy of the Army in a little far east country you probably never heard of it.
Have been deer hunting in Michigan, carried a little 22 handgun for awhile in New Orleans for protection only of course.

On this thread it was suggested that every person buying a gun should take a gun safety class that idea was shot down, it was suggested that when not in contact with you gun you should have a trigger lock for it that was kinda like well no, even a biological scan for weapons well no to inconvenient it was suggested that to buy a gun you must send an application to a gun safetry committee then face an interview.what if one of the 50 was like Alexis walked in bought a gun and started shooting the other 49?eace

 

[presluc]

How would a gun merchant have known the guy in the VPI shooting was nuts?

I know he was stopped by the police, I know one cop said he was acting strangeeace

 

[presluc]

Because the gun shop did not perform the check - they called NICS.

Educate yourself.

Already knew that educate yourself check my post somebodies dropped the ball on this one.
eace

 

[presluc]

While I understand your concern no amount of background checking is going to work if the data never makes it into the system.

I don't know much about the Seattle incident except that it's been reported to have happened. If he wasn't convicted of a crime and nobody checked his mental health then there would be no record to do a background check on. In Ft Worth no charges were filed so, again, a background check would have been useless. Finally, when the cops in Newport Rhode Island called the Navy Yard PD to report that they just had contact with this guy and he was ranting about "vibrations" the PD did nothing so, once again, no background check would have been found anything.

Well, I', glad you understand my concern .

I'm sure no amount of background checks is going to work if the data never makes it into the system.
I understand this.

However in every incident where a mentally ill person either buys a gun or has easy access to a gun there was some who ask why did this happen the police did stop this person, this person was arrested on a charge of firing a gun in public and blacking out afterwards.

Now some people said maybe the background checks should be more difficult, maybe the data should be updated gun safety was brought up by some American citizens , even criticizing the data base of the federal government.
You know who did not complain or criticize the background check system or ask that it be changed ?
Gun merchants, not a word, no well we need the proper data to run proper background checks.

NRA they always talked about how tragic it was or this person shouldn't have done that or that person should be allowed to carry a gun or teachers should be armed with weapons , but background checks not so much said by the great NRA.

Heston talked big at the NRA convention "FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS", but when ask to say something about the death of a 9 year old in Flint, Michigan shot in the face, it was NO COMMENT, SORRY CAN'T TALK.:

SO MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE KEEP GETTING GUNS AND KILLING PEOPLE AND EVERYBODY IS SUPPOSED TO SAY GEE TOO BAD SORRY TO HEAR THAT TOO BAD NOTHING CAN BE DONE TO STOP THESE TRAGEDIES FROM HAPPENING?
In America, the leaders brag we are the most advanced country in the feild of technology, and some mentally ill person walks into a gun store buys a shotgun kills 12 people and it's SORRY WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING TO IMPROVE THE WAY THINGS ARE , IT'S TOO DIFICULT, IT'S TOO INCONVIENANT?.peace

 

[presluc]

Do you not comprehend English?

Do you?
A mentally ill person with an arrest record of missuse of firing a gun in public and said he blacked cout buys a shotgun kills 12 people and it's business as usual??
Not this American. It's not like the signs weren't there this guy got a shaky discharge, was arrested for firing a gun in public told the [police he didn't remember doing it and walks into a gun store and buys a shotgun??
Somebody screwed up here.
If the gun merchants are afraid to ask I'm not, if the NRA are afraid of losing members I DON'T CARE.eace

 

[presluc]

You have no idea about what the BATFE has done with any gun shop.

Don't understand that relationship either.

Given all this lack of knowledge, you need to quit while you are so behind.

Well, I don't recall any news conference since Virginia Tech, except the usual political crap , "this will be looked into " more than one person has died since then.
Given the lack of certain male anatomy parts the politicians looking and talking , the NRA talking and looking recruiting , the gun merchants still making a profit on every gun they sell. no matter who they sell to.eace

 

[VanceMack]

I don't think NICS or the Federal Golvernment owns a gun shop in Virginia that is private business.

Didn't get the shotgun from NICS or the Federal Government , got it at a gun store in Virginia.eace

So are you really interested in accepting the facts or are you just planning on being a dick throughout the course of the thread?

When anyone goes to a FFL firearms dealer to purchase a weapon, that dealer runs a NICS check. That check comes back go or no go. When his background check was done it came back clear and the dealer sold the weapon. Pretty basic stuff...just like Goshin said. If you have a problem with what info is or isnt in the NICS system, take it up with the fed.

And while you are still on about the NICS system, try to wrap your brain around the fact that he carried a Secret Security clearance requiring an even more extensive series of background checks and still passed.

 

[presluc]

But our legal system preserves the individual as innocent until proven guilty, and if he is not convicted of the crime, then he is considered innocent. Innocent individuals should not have their constitutional rights taken away, just because they were arrested on suspicion.

Don't hand me the 2nd amendment stuff, the second amendment ain't going anywhere.

You know as well as I do no gun store owner is going to sell guns to a gang banger with an arrest record.
eace

 

[Lutherf]

Well, I', glad you understand my concern .

I'm sure no amount of background checks is going to work if the data never makes it into the system.
I understand this.

However in every incident where a mentally ill person either buys a gun or has easy access to a gun there was some who ask why did this happen the police did stop this person, this person was arrested on a charge of firing a gun in public and blacking out afterwards.

Now some people said maybe the background checks should be more difficult, maybe the data should be updated gun safety was brought up by some American citizens , even criticizing the data base of the federal government.
You know who did not complain or criticize the background check system or ask that it be changed ?
Gun merchants, not a word, no well we need the proper data to run proper background checks.

NRA they always talked about how tragic it was or this person shouldn't have done that or that person should be allowed to carry a gun or teachers should be armed with weapons , but background checks not so much said by the great NRA.

Heston talked big at the NRA convention "FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS", but when ask to say something about the death of a 9 year old in Flint, Michigan shot in the face, it was NO COMMENT, SORRY CAN'T TALK.:

SO MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE KEEP GETTING GUNS AND KILLING PEOPLE AND EVERYBODY IS SUPPOSED TO SAY GEE TOO BAD SORRY TO HEAR THAT TOO BAD NOTHING CAN BE DONE TO STOP THESE TRAGEDIES FROM HAPPENING?
In America, the leaders brag we are the most advanced country in the feild of technology, and some mentally ill person walks into a gun store buys a shotgun kills 12 people and it's SORRY WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING TO IMPROVE THE WAY THINGS ARE , IT'S TOO DIFICULT, IT'S TOO INCONVIENANT?.peace

I've spent a lot of time in gun shops over the years and I've seen some pretty goofy people in there trying to purchase guns. I've also seen them refused service when their responses to certain questions raise an eyebrow. Most FFL's (and most sellers in general) are pretty leery about who they sell to. If you come into the store acting like a jackass or a freak you're probably not going to get served.

 

[Lutherf]

Well, I', glad you understand my concern .

I'm sure no amount of background checks is going to work if the data never makes it into the system.
I understand this.

However in every incident where a mentally ill person either buys a gun or has easy access to a gun there was some who ask why did this happen the police did stop this person, this person was arrested on a charge of firing a gun in public and blacking out afterwards.

Now some people said maybe the background checks should be more difficult, maybe the data should be updated gun safety was brought up by some American citizens , even criticizing the data base of the federal government.
You know who did not complain or criticize the background check system or ask that it be changed ?
Gun merchants, not a word, no well we need the proper data to run proper background checks.

NRA they always talked about how tragic it was or this person shouldn't have done that or that person should be allowed to carry a gun or teachers should be armed with weapons , but background checks not so much said by the great NRA.

Heston talked big at the NRA convention "FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS", but when ask to say something about the death of a 9 year old in Flint, Michigan shot in the face, it was NO COMMENT, SORRY CAN'T TALK.:

SO MENTALLY ILL PEOPLE KEEP GETTING GUNS AND KILLING PEOPLE AND EVERYBODY IS SUPPOSED TO SAY GEE TOO BAD SORRY TO HEAR THAT TOO BAD NOTHING CAN BE DONE TO STOP THESE TRAGEDIES FROM HAPPENING?
In America, the leaders brag we are the most advanced country in the feild of technology, and some mentally ill person walks into a gun store buys a shotgun kills 12 people and it's SORRY WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING TO IMPROVE THE WAY THINGS ARE , IT'S TOO DIFICULT, IT'S TOO INCONVIENANT?.peace

I would suggest that the primary problem sits with the political will to do the things that would be most effective.

Our politicians have no problem pushing for restrictions, background checks, registration, microstamping, taxing, etc, etc. What you don't hear them saying is "we really need to crack down on street crime" or "we really need to work on family values" or "we really need to work on getting the mentally ill the help that they need".

Do you know why they don't say those things?

It's because whenever they do the ACLU goes ballistic. Putting more cops on the street is considered to be racist. Promoting family values is gender biased. Helping the mentally ill is just an excuse to imprison more people.

Even though Jared Loughner was nuttier than a fruitcake everybody just shook their head and went about their business because if they said he was crazy then his parents could sue the school. Even though Nidal Hassan was known to have extremist views nobody touched him because he was just expressing himself. James Holmes was being treated for his issues but nothing was reported because of privacy concerns. This guy in DC......hell, the RI cops called the damned Navy cops and nobody did anything because.......apparently just because.

If you want to start improving the situation then great, start by getting the elected officials to focus on the actual problems instead of some grandstanding maneuver to get their face on the front page of the paper.

 

[lizzie]

Don't hand me the 2nd amendment stuff, the second amendment ain't going anywhere.

You know as well as I do no gun store owner is going to sell guns to a gang banger with an arrest record.
eace

you apparently don't understand the difference between someone who is arrested and someone who is convicted. Without that understanding, you can't understand what the issue is here. It is one of innocence vs guilt. You don't limit rights based on an arrest without a determination of guilt. I'm not sure how to make it more simple than that.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Life liberty and the pursuit of happiness unless I'm mistaken.

Technically, you are mistaken. Those rights are listed in the Declaration of Independence, and while the 10th Amendment would seem to include them apparently many people within our government don’t think so.

Even so, the “pursuit of happiness” is listed, not the “guarantee of happiness;” thus you are not guaranteed a right to a job, or an apartment. BTW a driver’s license is a requirement necessary for the legal privilege of driving, and you aren’t guaranteed one, you earn one.

Not asking to stop people from acting violently asking that mentally ill people with a record should not be able to buy a gun and kill people.

Apparently you are unaware that over 65 million American adults have a criminal record. That means 1 in 4 American adults would be excluded from gun ownership, and you would be granting the State the power to increase that number by merely arresting someone.

Also, unless you are a practicing mental health professional, who are you to determine what constitutes dangerous mental health issues leading to loss of gun rights?

Now I ignored all of your “questions” because they are red herrings with little or no relevance to the issue being discussed. I also ignored your weapons background because that also fails to support your credibility. Why? No gun rights supporter would use the gun control arguments you profess.

Finally, I ignored the few suggestions you made because I also support gun safety and familiarization training for people who wish to own a gun, but as a matter of simple common sense not government regulation. Why? Government would make the pre-requirements so onerous as to limit access to those they deem worthy, creating tacit gun control.

The bottom line is that had more citizens been trained and authorized to CCW the psycho killer would have been gunned down by the first armed person to see him kill an unarmed citizen.

 

[Green Balls]

Except for the little fact that just because someone is deemed psychologically fit today, does not mean that he will be 6 weeks from now. People who are mentally unstable aren't just born that way, and continue to be for their entire lifetimes. Sometimes, and it's not uncommon, perfectly functioning humans go from what we consider stable to unstable in a matter of days, weeks, months, or even years.

That is a valid point you have. Unfortunately all scenarios cannot be accounted for. I'm not a fan of guns, so my only take on them is that they shouldn't exist.