So, I think the bag of evidence regarding muslims unintegrability is full

[Visbek]

As I said in this thread, the religious and cultural leaders of the muslims are staunch supporters of the caliphate. So the bag of evidence about how they are unintegratable is spilling out crazy.

OK, so a handful of extremists hand out leaflets. That's your proof that large swaths of Muslims in Europe don't want to integrate? Seriously?

 

[Rainman05]

OK, so a handful of extremists hand out leaflets. That's your proof that large swaths of Muslims in Europe don't want to integrate? Seriously?

As pointed out in this thread, it's one of many.

 

[David_H]

There seems to be a fair number among the Dutch people who have found a socially acceptable solution. Just more “pro-Palestinian” protests: Nazi salutes in Paris, “death to all Jews” in the Hague

"The Hague’s mayor Jozias van Aartsen is being urged to get tough on anti-Jewish demonstrators after people were heard chanting ‘death to Jews’ at a protest rally in the city on Thursday evening.

During the rally, in which some of the 100 protesters carried pro-Isis flags, Muslim youngsters were heard to shout ‘death to all Jews’, news magazine Elsevier reports.

Esther Voet of the Israel information centre CIDI said on Twitter: ‘people who made themselves unrecognisable, Isis flags, death to Jews and journalists take to safety. The Netherlands 2014.’"



Fair number ?

Socially acceptable ??

I really don't see your point here...

The muslims protesting these "fellow" muslims protest came with three times that number..

We have a million muslims here and you see 0,0001 percent of them doing this.... I would like to hear what the rest of them have to say about that..

 

[David_H]

"Dutch people"

These are French citizens, speaking French and protesting in France, the "Hollande complice" sign is supposed to mean their president (Francois Hollande) is also accountable because he supports Israel....

Language skills people....

 

[David_H]

We have a million muslims here and you see 0,0001 percent of them doing this.... I would like to hear what the rest of them have to say about that..

Beating you to it: 0,01 percent of them, math skills people

Grants article from the Ukrainian thread:

......
ISIS has nothing to do with Islam. It's a preconceived plan by Zionists who want to deliberately blacken Islam's name.

Who is Yasmina Haifi? She's an official at the Dutch Ministry of Justice who serves as project leader at the Netherlands' National Cyber Security Center. And she thinks Isis is a Zionist plot to make Islam look bad.

She could be right. On the other hand, maybe Yasmina Haifi is a Zionist plot to make Islam look bad - or at any rate deranged. Presumably the many Dutch Muslims out on the streets holding pro-Isis demonstrations would disagree with her - because they surely wouldn't be demonstrating in favor of a Zionist front group, would they? Unless, of course, they're also in on the Zionist plot...

http://www.steynonline.com/6520/young-turks

Populistic bloated journalism...


As the article from grant earlier in this thread stated :it where 100 protesters protesting Israel of which SOME supported ISIS with flags..

 

[Visbek]

The problem is that muslim identity supercedes any other identity....

Yeah, I don't think so. Did you really not notice a huge war between Iraq and Iran in the 80s? How Syria's civil war involves various ethnicities? How the government of Kuwait did not welcome Iraq's invasion, which was part of Hussein's attempt to build his own caliphate? How numerous attempts to form a caliphate have failed, repeatedly, throughout the centuries?

Saying that "Muslim identity supersedes all else" is as mistaken as saying that "because everyone in so many Central and South American countries speaks Spanish, their identity as Hispanics supersedes any other identity."

Persians and turks refer to themselves as muslims in the same way you and I would as catholics or protestants or atheists or whatever we are.

So... Now it's Persians and Turks that have ethnic identities. And no other Muslim nation does? Seriously?

You do know that the most recent political entity that had a vague claim on being a "caliphate" was, wait for it... the Ottoman Empire, centered in what we now know as Turkey?

I am curious, is this a result of going into Muslim communities and actually asking them what they think? Or just the result of observing a few civil disturbances... in a nation where students riot over labor law changes?

So even if you take away all the radicals today... we invent a magical device that instantly beams up all the radical islamists... 5 years from now, 10 years from now, there will be a new crop of terrorists and extremists and radicals. Why? Because there are a lot of things within islam that demand this to be the way of life, a way of life that we deem radical.

Or, because the socioeconomic, political, and cultural conditions that produce those radicals isn't resolved by eliminating the leaders of those movements.

It's the same as with the American civil rights movement, or numerous nation's independence movements. The need for an American civil rights movement did not disappear because of the deaths of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr; the desire for India's independence would not have evaporated if Gandhi had died in 1940. There is noting unique about Islam, or Muslim immigrant communities in France, in this respect.

If it were say, alawites that would be the dominant islamic sect... there may not be a problem. But alawites are few and fat between and getting fewer coz they're being killed off by ISIS. Because alawites are "reformed" muslims in a way... by that I mean they seem to be open to syncretism which is the process of adopting things from various places into your own.

Or, the problem is that the al-Assads are Alawites, and have favored them, so the Alawites are supporting the Ba'athists / al-Assads.

It's also pretty clear that lots of Muslims are not aligning themselves with ISIS/ISIL, despite that organization making yet another in the endless stream of calls for a caliphate.

While most arabs and north africans are sunni, they're different branches of sunni. Because there are like 5 major "types" of sunnis. But it doesn't matter to them once they get into the west. In other words, if the whole world were sunni islam, with the different variations of it, they'd turn on one another and kill each other until there is just 1 branch of sunni islam....

Just as a reminder, Christian sects in Europe spent lots of time trying to annihilate one another. Despite decades of violent attacks and suppression and wars, numerous Christian denominations survived and flourished anyway. In fact, it wasn't that long ago that Catholics and Protestants were waging war with each other in Northern Ireland.

In fact, in a lot of ways Muslims are not that far behind Europe. Many European nations only abolished the death penalty in the mid-20th century; women faced what we would now classify as unacceptable discriminatory practices less than 100 years ago; corporal punishment only really started to decline around 50 years ago, and so on. Obviously, Western Europeans spent centuries murdering one another, and really only halted the perpetual warfare after WWII.

Many of the cultural changes that Westerners now take for granted occurred in a fairly short time frame. Presuming that "Muslims won't change, because it's part of their nature" is just absurd rhetoric that, frankly, shares the epistemic foundation of racism.

So they come in europe which is not islamic, yet, and they all band together as muslims, ignore the differences of what branch each one is, and just go for full solitary front.

Of the Muslims in France, 1.4 million of the are Algerian, 1 million are Moroccan, and 350k are Tunisian. Over half the Muslims in France are from North Africa. Even so, there are unquestionably differences between these groups; I'm quite certain that if you referred to a Tunisian as a Moroccan, they would correct you. I.e. it is highly unlikely that solely because you refuse or do not notice the distinctions, that they do truly form a "unified front."

A more likely answer is that wide-spread distrust and prejudice against Muslims is forcing them into a group identity. Muslims who didn't care about strict religious dress codes will, in fact, start to care once they are singled out and targeted because other Muslims are denied their rights. It's very common, and a normal part of human cognition and psychology. (cf Review: Us and Them by David Berreby | Books | The Guardian )

It's not so dissimilar to how christians in america all band together under the pillar of "christian" to gain political clout...

They don't. Christians in the US actually have quite diverse political views, including on issues like the separation of church and state, abortion and so forth. In particular, prejudice against Catholics has been particularly nasty, and Mormons have had issues as well. And it doesn't happen because a candidate happens to mention "I'm a Mormon!"

One similarity between the US and France is in anti-immigration sentiments. The US has had waves of immigration, each accompanied by exactly the kind of anti-immigration hostility. As noted, this type of mistreatment can encourage diverse communities to develop a level of solidarity. However, that's a completely different thing than deciding they want to form an Islamic caliphate that will storm Vienna.

So I don't know about deportation. I mean, straight-up deportation. It seems quite... inhumane. There are methods which one could do something that benefits all muslims... like give them Libya.

Are you insane?

Do you really think that Libya is yours to "give" to 4 million people? All because they are what, inconveniencing your sense of French identity?

Do you really suggest that dumping 4 million people in Libya doesn't qualify as a mass deportation? Yeesh.

 

[Rainman05]

Yeah, I don't think so. [...]

Yeah, I thought you didn't.

Shortened your comment to not have ultra-kilometric text.

The comparison between muslims and hispanics is flawed. This is their holy text and that's how they identify primarily. Look at they way they talk about themselves. Do you see moroccans and tunisians primarily talking about themselves as such or as muslims? Exactly. This is opposed to persians and turks who have way stronger national and ethnic identities for the reasons I described in a comment I think in the first or 2nd page, about how they didn't adopt arabic and all that.

I never said that others don't have ethnic identities, I said that the identity of "muslim" supercedes that.
The reason the Ottoman empire was the last caliphate is because it was the strongest, and really the only strong, muslim nation... even though it was on life-support for the last 150 years.

Labor laws are nothing to joke about. The French earned those rights and they will protest any action for them to stripped, as it is proper and democratic because the protest is democratic. Riot isn't. And you seem to make no distinction between one and the other. But alas, a lot of them were anyway thanks to Sarkozy. He turned the doctors against the teachers and the teachers against the railwaymen and the police against the firemen... etc. but that tension was fabricated by the political class because it wanted to cut down salaries and benefits. It wouldn't have occurred by people in those professions doing waht they did. Again, you don't understand the situation in depth.

Again, you can claim that by eliminating the current crop of radicals that you manage to fix the problem, I disagree and if you look at how this strategy worked in the past, well, it didn't. Taking out the leaders will only serve to put new ones in place and spread it more about. You can't win a cultural battle with bullets or guns or even by putting them in jail. "ideas are bulletproof" works for both good and bad ones.

Again, you can't make comparisons between them and those movements because this isn't a civil rights issue. They aren't fighting for equality, they have that, they have more rights in Europe and live better lives than they did in their homelands, and yet, they're displeased, they want to turn this place, which is where they are happy and well-off, into the places they ran away from. Because they think they'll be happier there... so why don't they move back? well, again, it doesn't make sense. They want the good life but not to adopt any of the traits and qualities of the people who built it.

True Christian sects did spent a lot of time killing each other, I can name quite a few massive revolts that had to be put down. But the point it, it isn't happening now. It was hundreds of years ago. the last christian religious war was about 400 years ago, the 30 years war. The last religious sect uprising was over 500 years ago in Europe. So if you make this analogy, then muslims are 500 years behind europeans. The fact that europeans have lead the way to a better society and have humanized laws and society for the betterment of all and others choose to follow along, those that want to, and westernize. But ironically, you don't see a reactionary movement to this in muslims in europe. Hell, even the most "westernized" muslim country, turkey, is getting back on a reactionary path and heading towards the way of islamism. So... yeah...

Again, christians in the US are different, true, but if you look at the way politicians use to describe themselves they all call themselves christian. They don't run and say "i'm a southern baptist" or " I'm this kind of evangelical or w/e" or "i'm catholic". They reinforce the phrase "i'm christian" as to get all the christians to vote for them. Because they're afraid that maybe a catholic won't vote for a protestant, but as long as they make it clear that whatever else they are, they're christian first, they put all the various dogmas under 1 umbrella.

Your illegal immigrants aren't fundamentalists, are they now? and they're mostly christian since the latin american countries are predominantly catholic. And it's from a less dangerous part of the world. And they're from western countries, as in, countries whose traditions and customs are western. So there is a lot of common ground. The reason there is an anti-immigration sentiment is because of politics mostly. The rest is due to latino nationalism with movements like La Raza, but again, the majority of news in the US isn't that La Raza members did this, or they did that. The majority is some republican saying something about immigration or w/e.

Our illegal immigrants are from zones that aren't quite the same. They're not westernized, we have nothing in common with them. They're a completely different religion that is clear to be incompatible with western values and democracy. There is no way to account that they're not jihadists, after all, they come from Libya and that country is full of them. Look at France.
A few months ago, the number was that there are 400 confirmed muslims from france who went and became jihadists. Now it's 900 confirmed. I'm speculating that the number is waaay bigger because there is no way to keep track of all of them.
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/iraq-crisis-900-french-citizens-recruited-islamic-state-151926960.html
Behind these, let's stick to 900, is a vast array of recruiters, supporters both financial and through political grouping, ideological spokespersons and all that good stuff.

And ofc, mass demonstrations with ISIS carrying rioters and protesters.


I would imagine you'd be pleased because if you are correct, and indeed, the majority of them are pro-democracy and pro-secularism and moderates and all that, having them go into Libya and become citizens and vote and make their parliament democratic and secular is just what the doctor ordered. Don't you want peace and stability in Libya?

 

[Grant]

"Dutch people"

Apologies for excluding the Dutch.. There were supporters of ISIS in several European cities. Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News: "Death to the Jews!" at The Hague (video), plus (UPDATE)

 

[Grant]

"The Hague’s mayor Jozias van Aartsen is being urged to get tough on anti-Jewish demonstrators after people were heard chanting ‘death to Jews’ at a protest rally in the city on Thursday evening.

During the rally, in which some of the 100 protesters carried pro-Isis flags, Muslim youngsters were heard to shout ‘death to all Jews’, news magazine Elsevier reports.

Esther Voet of the Israel information centre CIDI said on Twitter: ‘people who made themselves unrecognisable, Isis flags, death to Jews and journalists take to safety. The Netherlands 2014.’"



Fair number ?

Socially acceptable ??

I really don't see your point here...

The muslims protesting these "fellow" muslims protest came with three times that number..

We have a million muslims here and you see 0,0001 percent of them doing this.... I would like to hear what the rest of them have to say about that..

Recall the woman speaking on the other thread, with which we both agreed, that it only takes a small number of fanatical Nazis, Communists, etc. to influence the majority?

That even 100 would show up is surprising and of course that says nothing about those who sympathize but didn't show up. That ISIS supporters would even arrive to protest, despite their newness and well publicized atrocities, was something of a surprise.

You seem to be saying that the Dutch have a handle on it but I remain sceptical. Similar protests are happening throughout Europe and from what I've seen so far is that anyone who speaks out against them are, like Geert Wilders, labelled "Extreme right wing". Many Europeans are 'left wing' or 'extreme left wing' which suggests that uniting non-Muslims to stall or reverse radical islam will be very difficult.

 

[David_H]

You seem to be saying that the Dutch have a handle on it but I remain sceptical. Similar protests are happening throughout Europe and from what I've seen so far is that anyone who speaks out against them are, like Geert Wilders, labelled "Extreme right wing". Many Europeans are 'left wing' or 'extreme left wing' which suggests that uniting non-Muslims to stall or reverse radical islam will be very difficult.

We voted no to the patriot act, we have to use the justice system, that takes time. The aivd(our "cia/fbi" thing) says within four months the trials can start.

look for Pro-Patria protests on youtube. Resistance is gaining ground fast..

I do share your concern of infectious extremism, we all do but stamping all muslims enemy is very very pre-mature at this stage. First we have to see what happens if you take out the extremists. I would push for a ban on wahabism and salafism too if it comes to that.

 

[Visbek]

The comparison between muslims and hispanics is flawed.

I'm not saying they are precisely comparable. I'm saying that it is the external treatment which makes it look, to you and to other non-Muslims, as though there are few differences between them.

Again, Tunisians and Moroccans aren't the same, they don't want all the same things, and they certainly don't all want to form a big caliphate.

Labor laws are nothing to joke about. The French earned those rights and they will protest any action for them to stripped....

I'm not joking about it. I'm pointing out that France still suffers riots on occasion, and they're not all caused by Muslims who refuse to integrate. And yes, the 2006 labor-law protests did turn into riots, n'est-ce pas?

Again, you can claim that by eliminating the current crop of radicals that you manage to fix the problem...

I absolutely did NOT say that. Re-read my post. I said that if you eliminated those leaders, the problems would not persist, and that those problems are not a result of some "essential" quality to Muslims.

Again, you can't make comparisons between them and those movements because this isn't a civil rights issue. They aren't fighting for equality, they have that....

I'm reasonably confident that they would say there are civil rights issues at stake, mostly involving freedom of religion and discrimination.

I'm not actually sure that civil rights are that bad in Algeria, Tunisia (post-Arab Spring) Morocco and Turkey. I'm sure there is a handful of radicals who want to change Europe. (In turn, we should recognize that most Europeans and Americans would jump at the chance to radically change almost every Arab nation!) I don't think we can reasonably say, on that basis, that "the majority of Muslim immigrants want to turn France into Saudi Arabia.)

True Christian sects did spent a lot of time killing each other, I can name quite a few massive revolts that had to be put down. But the point it, it isn't happening now. It was hundreds of years ago.

Except in Ireland

And again, it was really only after WWII that Europe really put the brakes on the endless rounds of wars. I highly recommend you read Pinker's Better Angels of our Nature as a reminder of how much that type of violence has dropped just in the past ~200 years.

The fact that europeans have lead the way to a better society and have humanized laws and society for the betterment of all and others choose to follow along, those that want to, and westernize. But ironically, you don't see a reactionary movement to this in muslims in europe. Hell, even the most "westernized" muslim country, turkey, is getting back on a reactionary path and heading towards the way of islamism. So... yeah...

Yeah, that's not quite how it's happened. Europe has had a remarkable decline in violence and war, of that there is little doubt. But so have the US, Japan, and yes, even the Muslim world (though as I mentioned, they're a bit behind).

As to the "reactionary movement," did you really not notice the Arab Spring? There were millions of people in numerous Muslim nations who decided they had enough of autocracy, and established democratic rule. In that respect, they're only a few decades behind Germany, Italy, Spain, and most of Eastern Europe.

Your illegal immigrants aren't fundamentalists, are they now? and they're mostly christian since the latin american countries are predominantly catholic. And it's from a less dangerous part of the world. And they're from western countries, as in, countries whose traditions and customs are western. So there is a lot of common ground.

I'm not saying that Hispanics are like Muslims. I'm saying that you are exhibiting much of the same nativist sentiment that we've seen all over the world, when immigrants (or outsiders, like Jews and Roma) have a presence in a nation.

The reason there is an anti-immigration sentiment is because of politics mostly.

I think you're misreading the situation. While it is the case that right now Republicans are making lots of hay for political reasons, and have done so in the past, these types of anti-immigrant sentiments rise up whenever there are big waves of immigration. The Irish, the Italians, the Chinese, the Jews, the Germans -- all of them faced substantial discrimination. Politicians are following the sentiment more than they are creating it.

It's not exactly the same, but the similarities are fairly obvious. In both cases, the immigrants are an "impurity," they increase crime, they are an existential threat, they don't belong here, they don't want to integrate or assimilate, they should be deported, and so forth.

A few months ago, the number was that there are 400 confirmed muslims from france who went and became jihadists. Now it's 900 confirmed. I'm speculating that the number is waaay bigger because there is no way to keep track of all of them.

OK, let's say there are 4000 Muslims currently living in France, who are candidates for engaging in actual violence in the name of Islam (something that, by the way, many Imams do not support). That's 0.09% of the total. Even if it was a 40,000 people (or 1%), it'd still be very hard to say that small group represents the majority of Muslims.

I would imagine you'd be pleased because if you are correct, and indeed, the majority of them are pro-democracy and pro-secularism and moderates and all that, having them go into Libya and become citizens and vote and make their parliament democratic and secular is just what the doctor ordered. Don't you want peace and stability in Libya?

I don't think this is about Libya. It certainly isn't about addressing the problems facing the 4.5 million Muslims living in France, the overwhelming majority of which are not Libyan.

I think this is about satisfying a French nativist impulse. C'est la guerre.

 

[Grant]

OK, so a handful of extremists hand out leaflets. That's your proof that large swaths of Muslims in Europe don't want to integrate? Seriously?

Who ever knows which is which until there are riots or murders?

 

[Grant]

We voted no to the patriot act, we have to use the justice system, that takes time. The aivd(our "cia/fbi" thing) says within four months the trials can start.

look for Pro-Patria protests on youtube. Resistance is gaining ground fast..

I do share your concern of infectious extremism, we all do but stamping all muslims enemy is very very pre-mature at this stage. First we have to see what happens if you take out the extremists. I would push for a ban on wahabism and salafism too if it comes to that.

We just had a riot in Calgary which the police ignored in order not to irritae Muslims. But there were people with cameras who photographed the Islamic rioters and the police were finally forced to lay charges' I think immediate action is preferable. It's an idea whose time has come. RiotStoppers.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIqvxv3jHLc

 

[David_H]

We just had a riot in Calgary which the police ignored in order not to irritae Muslims. But there were people with cameras who photographed the Islamic rioters and the police were finally forced to lay charges' I think immediate action is preferable. It's an idea whose time has come. RiotStoppers.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIqvxv3jHLc

The start of europes resistance ? ME grijpt in bij anti-ISIS-betoging - NOS Nieuws (no english article yet)

The arrest of the people who supported isis in the last demonstration have started and those that opposed this anti isis protest with violence are being arrested too.

These are not anti islam though, they are anti extremism and anti jew hate protests. The Far Right standing up for the Jews... that must be the new era the English extremists where talking about in their flyers

 

[Grant]

The start of europes resistance ? ME grijpt in bij anti-ISIS-betoging - NOS Nieuws (no english article yet)

The arrest of the people who supported isis in the last demonstration have started and those that opposed this anti isis protest with violence are being arrested too.

These are not anti islam though, they are anti extremism and anti jew hate protests. The Far Right standing up for the Jews... that must be the new era the English extremists where talking about in their flyers

Thanks David and Google gave me a rough, but understandable, translation.

I think it's a mistake to call these people 'far right' and the term was never used in the Calgary protests, nor were the rioting Muslims ever referred to as a 'wing'. I sent you a link.

People have to stand up to injustice anywhere and there is not one particular group which owns the term. Usually it is just normal people who have had enough, and you can see that in the Calgary riot aftermath.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Recall the woman speaking on the other thread, with which we both agreed, that it only takes a small number of fanatical Nazis, Communists, etc. to influence the majority?

That even 100 would show up is surprising and of course that says nothing about those who sympathize but didn't show up. That ISIS supporters would even arrive to protest, despite their newness and well publicized atrocities, was something of a surprise.

Not really a surprise, extremism exists everywhere in every country.

You seem to be saying that the Dutch have a handle on it but I remain sceptical. Similar protests are happening throughout Europe and from what I've seen so far is that anyone who speaks out against them are, like Geert Wilders, labelled "Extreme right wing".

Wilders is not "mainstream.." or centrist.

Many Europeans are 'left wing' or 'extreme left wing' which suggests that uniting non-Muslims to stall or reverse radical islam will be very difficult.

Such broad brushing is always the problem in trying to discuss such issues. The majority of muslims in Europe wish to live in peace and integrate. They need the opportunity as well as the encouragement where necessary to do so.
To the point you raise about uniting non-muslims - even in this thread you will see that there will always be extreme solutions suggested. Mass deportations are not the answer, neither is suggesting that European nations are surrendering or appeasing or whatever the accusations thrown. The struggle for a new dynamic in society is always ongoing. You often call for a "Britain" of some imaginary past on this forum, culture changes and adapts. Some integrate and some don't, essentially evolution of societies means that some aspects change over time and others don't.

I do not support the idea that muslims cannot integrate, there is a vocal minority that causes problems and or has a tendency to extreme actions / reaction but our security forces deal with them and even our politicians have certainly moved beyond the point of ignorance to the dangers radicalism and fundamentalism is beginning to pose.

Anyhow - to add to the discussion - this short link is from a longer discussion by young British muslims on the subject of a caliphate and you do see the differences apparent that demonstrates that "muslims" should not be broad-brushed.

 

[Grant]

Not really a surprise, extremism exists everywhere in every country.

As far as I know there were no ISIS (or ISL) protesting or causing problems anywhere in Canada or the United States.

Wilders is not "mainstream.." or centrist.

He is 47% support in Holland.That makes him fairly mainstream.

Regarding his reputation in the Netherlands, Wilders stated in 2009, "Half of Holland loves me and half of Holland hates me. There is no in-between." In 2005, the Dutch public expressed mixed reactions to Wilders' general agenda, with 53% calling it "implausible" and 47% more supportive.[66] He has been described as populist,[12][13][14] labelled as both "extreme right"[67] and far-right,[15][16] and defended by others as a mainstream politician with legitimate concerns[12] saying that such labels are shallow smear attempts. Wilders himself rejects the labels and has called the new description "scandalous".[12] He has been accused of building his popularity on fear and resentment[68][69] and vociferously defended for having the courage to talk openly about the problems unfettered immigration brings with it and the incompatibility of fundamentalist Islam with western values.[70]

Such broad brushing is always the problem in trying to discuss such issues.

Worse is using terms such as 'extreme right', which quite often don't make sense, particularly when they mean so many diffeerent things to different people inn different parts of the world. Would Muslim agitators then be "extreme left"?

The majority of muslims in Europe wish to live in peace and integrate. They need the opportunity as well as the encouragement where necessary to do so.

Yes, that's true over here as well. They are not much of a concern if they just want to keep their religion and assimilate into the greater community and sharing in the host culture, laws included. But where are these same people when riots occur? It seems to me that they tend to live in fear waiting to see who has the stronger horse. It is risky for them, or anyone, to go up against radical Muslims..

To the point you raise about uniting non-muslims - even in this thread you will see that there will always be extreme solutions suggested. Mass deportations are not the answer, neither is suggesting that European nations are surrendering or appeasing or whatever the accusations thrown. The struggle for a new dynamic in society is always ongoing. You often call for a "Britain" of some imaginary past on this forum, culture changes and adapts. Some integrate and some don't, essentially evolution of societies means that some aspects change over time and others don't.

Yes, and in the western democracies it has been the custom for the citizens to leave their country in a better situation for future generations. Is this what is happening in Europe now?

I do not support the idea that muslims cannot integrate, there is a vocal minority that causes problems and or has a tendency to extreme actions / reaction but our security forces deal with them and even our politicians have certainly moved beyond the point of ignorance to the dangers radicalism and fundamentalism is beginning to pose.

Police everyone have been reluctant to prosecute Muslims, though not their opponents, when riots break out, fearing it will worsen the situation. That may be changing. This is what happened recently in Canada. RiotStoppers.com RiotStoppers.com : Prime time : SunNews Video Gallery


Those who are not among ''the vocal minority' have made themselves irrelevant by not speaking out against those who those who are destroying whatever positive reputation Islam may well have had. It is not what you would call a 21st Century religion. It would seem that Muslims cannot police themselves effectively either, and there are those who are still beating up on Gays and committing a majority of the crimes.

Anyhow - to add to the discussion - this short link is from a longer discussion by young British muslims on the subject of a caliphate and you do see the differences apparent that demonstrates that "muslims" should not be broad-brushed.

We knew that but it will remain to be seen as to who is more determined and aggressive. Some will speak out against a Caliphate but do so more because it's not a good idea. Those who think it's a good idea feel more strongly and would likely die for their cause moreso than those who just want to get along enjoying the rights and freedoms their host countries have to offer.

Thanks for the links. Saw one and am doing the other.

 

[Rainman05]

Not really a surprise, extremism exists everywhere in every country.



Wilders is not "mainstream.." or centrist.



Such broad brushing is always the problem in trying to discuss such issues. The majority of muslims in Europe wish to live in peace and integrate. They need the opportunity as well as the encouragement where necessary to do so.
To the point you raise about uniting non-muslims - even in this thread you will see that there will always be extreme solutions suggested. Mass deportations are not the answer, neither is suggesting that European nations are surrendering or appeasing or whatever the accusations thrown. The struggle for a new dynamic in society is always ongoing. You often call for a "Britain" of some imaginary past on this forum, culture changes and adapts. Some integrate and some don't, essentially evolution of societies means that some aspects change over time and others don't.

I do not support the idea that muslims cannot integrate, there is a vocal minority that causes problems and or has a tendency to extreme actions / reaction but our security forces deal with them and even our politicians have certainly moved beyond the point of ignorance to the dangers radicalism and fundamentalism is beginning to pose.

Anyhow - to add to the discussion - this short link is from a longer discussion by young British muslims on the subject of a caliphate and you do see the differences apparent that demonstrates that "muslims" should not be broad-brushed.

I would like to believe that's true but as I look around, it seems more and more unlikely that it is.

There is no working model for islam existing in non-islamic society that doesn't cause severe rifts and problems and the greater the number of muslims, the greater the problems.
Even in places where it has existed for far longer than it's brief existence in europe today which is just a matter of decades, in places like india where it existed for about 900 years, in places like ethiopia where it existed for over 1200 years, the phillipines where it's just 8% muslims but there is a guerrilla war done in the name of islam against the state... hell, even now in syria and iraq but i'm not even going to bother with what is going on today.

I would love it if there was a working model for this, but there isn't. That's my fear, I'm afraid there is no working model...
I would love it if Europe would come up with one... but it doesn't seem likely. At least not at how things are now. Paris and France in general are still seeing riots. ISIS supporters are brazenly walking about in the streets. The number of muslims from the west going to jihad have been rising and now we had that picture of that muslim from australia taking his children to the jihad. It's not normal.

And I saw that link from that panel, and on that panel, just the shia persian woman was strictly against the caliphate (lets not forget, ISIS is a sunni caliphate, not a shia one)while the rest, 2 imam guys were firmly in support of it, 1 was a hippie with the "spiritual caliphate", 1 was "i kinda like it here but you know... meh" and the others were unremarkable.

 

[Gardener]

The Far Right standing up for the Jews...

Only because the European left most definitely doesn't.

 

[David_H]

I would love it if there was a working model for this, but there isn't. That's my fear, I'm afraid there is no working model...
I would love it if Europe would come up with one... but it doesn't seem likely. At least not at how things are now. Paris and France in general are still seeing riots. ISIS supporters are brazenly walking about in the streets. The number of muslims from the west going to jihad have been rising and now we had that picture of that muslim from australia taking his children to the jihad. It's not normal.

Well, if all European islamic extremists where to join ISIS in the caliphate it would solve our problems. The Kurds, the shias, the Iranians and the Syrians have got them closed in just fine. With the west finaly starting to join in the effort of ending this madness it would be a quick solution.

You have to be careful in generalizing muslims in times like these. In my country we have had all sorts of terrorist extremist. Violent left wing extremists (rote armee fraction) have had their time. The molukkan (Indonesians) extremists have had their violent past. Extreme right wing have had theirs etc. etc. etc. The muslim community in the west is under a lot of stress, the war in Syria, Irak and Palestina makes them wan to speak up in a way that is allowed in the west. When this happens all sorts of muslims come together because they all feel compelled to speak up for their "fellow" muslims. A very small portion of these people mixed in the protesting crowed will go all "allah akbar bananas" with ISIS flags and screaming things like"death to the jews" or "death to the athiests". What we see in the news is a group of muslims that we identify as extreme and unwelcome because we like to get that **** spoon fed by the media. But that is not really what is happening, it are just a few rotten apples hiding among the rest.

I'm not saying that we should let it be, these extremists have no place here. Where ever they are from, who ever is their god. If they call for the murdering of the innocent and the destruction of our world they should be dealt with ruthlessly. We must not give in one inch to these people.

But these are not the muslims that inhabit our citys in general. There are many kinds of Islam like there are many kinds of Christianity. There is a thing we call "volks islam" just like "volks wagen" it means something like "the common peoples islam". These are not violent people, these are not criminals or terrorists. These people really like life here and rest in the fact that a country does not need to be muslim dominated to be a very nice place to live. These people do enrich our cities with their culture, their friendlyness and their food. If these people come to understand that we respect them and that they are welcome you will have no problems with them.

Then their are the "muslims" that rob banks and shops, steal peoples hand bag, rob people in the evenings or live on social bennefits. According to the "volks islam" this is a very very shamefull and ungodly way to live. These people like to claim to be "muslim", so that when they play their "victim role" when being dealt with, they can call on their "fellow muslims" for help. But these are not really muslims... Stealing, robbing and violence has no place in the moderate islam we call "volks islam" all are sins.

And the last group is the few thousand violent "jihad mongering" wahabis and salafis. Common muslims hate these people just as much as we do. A middle eastern muslim spits and ****s on those people and everything they stand for, just like us. The problem is that we allow these fanatics in our country to spawn such muslims out of the common moderate muslims and atheists we have here. We allow these specific horrible strains of islam because we don't see the difference. If you ask a random middle eastern muslim what he thinks of that he will start cursing and swearing because he knows that that is very dangerous and stupid to allow. They know because they have been chopping heads and stoning women in the middel east and central asia for over 200 years now and nobody likes that, nobody, what ever religion, culture or country.(except the ill minded salafis them selves). This is why these people are fighting them whenever they pop up somewhere, the syrians even took them on while fighting for freedom because they really really really hate them and don't want them to have any power in their future country.

The arabs and asians know how to deal with these people, they have a very active policy with a search and destroy approach to these salafi and wahabi jihadis that prey on weakness.

The problems in the middle east are not only muslim related. middle eastern people have very tribal cultures, this causes a lot of conflict. Tribalism is nothing more or less than nationalism on a miniature scale, if you pile that up in a country and put a dictator in charge that discriminates the other tribes your in for some firework. If you take him out they start murdering other tribes to be the next dictator so they can dominate and discriminate the other tribes. That is the big problem over there, islam is not to blame for that unrest,Christians and yazidis take part in it just the same. Let that be a lesson about nationalism, Europe is our new country, if we start with nationalism in stead of "europeanism" now we will have a future that looks somewhat like modern day middle east. It may be a solution for the current problem but it will be an absolute downfall in the long run, and we know, if countries are in trouble, wahabi and salafi extremists pour in like maggots to an open wound and before you know it we'll be speaking arab and obeying sharia laws or face decapitation.


You can not and must not start a religious war on home turf because you misunderstand a very complex religion. The ammount of innocent victims that will result from this polarisation of our society will be enormous on "both sides". If we seriously want to solve this problem we have to stop generalizing and start studying the problem seriously. This problem has to be dealt with in a surgical manner, not with blunt force. We have to cut out the cancer, we can not kill the cancer plagued patient and expect to remain "a enlightend culture of freedom and so on". Killing the patient is killing our culture and everything we stand for.

The problem is urgent, the solution is difficult but we must not lose ourselves in fear (for the future) and act in contradiction to our values. In all reason, we have a few thousand seriously ****ed up jihadis in europe. We know who they are, we know where they are and we are watching them. We need laws, not anger and certainly not fear. Rational thinking and calmness trumps panic and fear any day of the week.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

As far as I know there were no ISIS (or ISL) protesting or causing problems anywhere in Canada or the United States.

CTV News Channel: Is ISIS a threat in Canada? | CTV News

He is 47% support in Holland.That makes him fairly mainstream.

15% in the 2012 elections, 15% in the european elections...

Worse is using terms such as 'extreme right', which quite often don't make sense, particularly when they mean so many diffeerent things to different people inn different parts of the world. Would Muslim agitators then be "extreme left"?

"Muslim agitators" are "muslim agitators" - I don't know what you're trying to achieve here.

Yes, that's true over here as well. They are not much of a concern if they just want to keep their religion and assimilate into the greater community and sharing in the host culture, laws included. But where are these same people when riots occur? It seems to me that they tend to live in fear waiting to see who has the stronger horse. It is risky for them, or anyone, to go up against radical Muslims..

Letting the police do their job?

Yes, and in the western democracies it has been the custom for the citizens to leave their country in a better situation for future generations. Is this what is happening in Europe now?

Considering your past history I don't think any answer I gave you would fit with what you want to hear.

-- Police everyone have been reluctant to prosecute Muslims, though not their opponents, when riots break out, fearing it will worsen the situation. That may be changing. This is what happened recently in Canada. RiotStoppers.com RiotStoppers.com : Prime time : SunNews Video Gallery


Those who are not among ''the vocal minority' have made themselves irrelevant by not speaking out against those who those who are destroying whatever positive reputation Islam may well have had. It is not what you would call a 21st Century religion. It would seem that Muslims cannot police themselves effectively either, and there are those who are still beating up on Gays and committing a majority of the crimes.

You need to read up on your news on policing of muslim criminals and terrorists in the UK. As for free speech prosecutions - I'm not in support of the police prosecuting legal free speech by anyone.

We knew that but it will remain to be seen as to who is more determined and aggressive. Some will speak out against a Caliphate but do so more because it's not a good idea. Those who think it's a good idea feel more strongly and would likely die for their cause moreso than those who just want to get along enjoying the rights and freedoms their host countries have to offer.

Thanks for the links. Saw one and am doing the other.

You're welcome. I'm not trying to paint a picture of a perfect life or scenario, we have islamists here and the dangerous ones need to be dealt with through the legal process. We need to monitor any and all agendas vigorously and I would agree that hasn't been done well enough here in the UK or Europe for quite a while.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I would like to believe that's true but as I look around, it seems more and more unlikely that it is.

There is no working model for islam existing in non-islamic society that doesn't cause severe rifts and problems and the greater the number of muslims, the greater the problems.
Even in places where it has existed for far longer than it's brief existence in europe today which is just a matter of decades, in places like india where it existed for about 900 years, in places like ethiopia where it existed for over 1200 years, the phillipines where it's just 8% muslims but there is a guerrilla war done in the name of islam against the state... hell, even now in syria and iraq but i'm not even going to bother with what is going on today.

Firstly that guerrilla war is recent - India and Ethiopia and Spain have not had those same problems with their muslim population for all the time they have lived there. The problem is one of recent times.
Secondly, I agree in recent times we need to limit and restrict the number of immigrants coming from outside Europe. I strongly believe those who moved here would integrate and settle but we also have specific problems with wahabi and salafi funding of fundamentalist teachers who were allowed to come more recently, we also had problems with 3rd world imams with no understanding of European culture coming to teach - certainly our politicians and security weren't aware of the risk of hate preachers who worked in Europe in the 80's and 90's.

Those were the prominent ones, we didn't catch up with the quieter ones who taught hate in private gatherings and private schools. I certainly think Europe should be more robust in enforcing our values - we must lay down a choice that this is what life and citizenship means and that way force the issue. Those who don't accept the values have a choice.

-- I would love it if there was a working model for this, but there isn't. That's my fear, I'm afraid there is no working model...
I would love it if Europe would come up with one... but it doesn't seem likely. .

I am in total agreement over this.

-- At least not at how things are now. Paris and France in general are still seeing riots. ISIS supporters are brazenly walking about in the streets The number of muslims from the west going to jihad have been rising

I am personally happy these guys are flushed out into the open, I also want Europe to remove citizenship from all who have gone - brown / white / black / arab - if they go, they cannot come back. I know that flies in the face of some conventions but letting them back in is stupid and counterproductive.

now we had that picture of that muslim from australia taking his children to the jihad. It's not normal.

Agreed.

And I saw that link from that panel, and on that panel, just the shia persian woman was strictly against the caliphate (lets not forget, ISIS is a sunni caliphate, not a shia one)while the rest, 2 imam guys were firmly in support of it, 1 was a hippie with the "spiritual caliphate", 1 was "i kinda like it here but you know... meh" and the others were unremarkable.

Yeah, we now know some of the ISIS supporters, as some of the others stated - if you're not happy here - go! I would add "hand your European passport and citizenship" over while you're at it.

 

[Gardener]

, we have islamists here and the dangerous ones need to be dealt with through the legal process. We need to monitor any and all agendas vigorously and I would agree that hasn't been done well enough here in the UK or Europe for quite a while.

I would think the first step should involve public awareness above all else. ALL Islamists are dangerous in the long run, since they seek to undermine the British way of life and replace it with theirs, and so it really isn't so much a matter of separating out only those in immediate danger of performing violent acts, but exposing the degree to which the generalized ideology is actually held -- which is quite considerable in Britain.

 

[Grant]

CTV News Channel: Is ISIS a threat in Canada? | CTV News

And I will repeat. "As far as I know there were no ISIS (or ISL) protesting or causing problems anywhere in Canada or the United States" The interviewee said there will be and he is probably right.

15% in the 2012 elections, 15% in the european elections...

And 47% approval in The Netherlands, which would make him mainstream.

"Muslim agitators" are "muslim agitators" - I don't know what you're trying to achieve here.

Muslims agitators are Muslims agitators? Great stuff!Had you read the post more carefully you would see the point about 'left' and 'right' in this instance being quite meaningless.

Letting the police do their job?

Can you point out where I suggested otherwise?

Considering your past history I don't think any answer I gave you would fit with what you want to hear.

And what do I want to hear?

You need to read up on your news on policing of muslim criminals and terrorists in the UK.

Yes, I'll be sure to do that.

As for free speech prosecutions - I'm not in support of the police prosecuting legal free speech by anyone.

You're quite the revolutionary.

You're welcome. I'm not trying to paint a picture of a perfect life or scenario, we have islamists here and the dangerous ones need to be dealt with through the legal process. We need to monitor any and all agendas vigorously and I would agree that hasn't been done well enough here in the UK or Europe for quite a while.

Well whatever you're trying to do you're rude and tiresome, and I've no further interest in your adolescent posts.

 

[David_H]

I agree with Grant on wilders, he is becoming mainstream. The left is showing fear of extremists, the people don't like that. Them not acting pushes the people to Wilders. Nobody wants this ectremist madness in their country, not even the most liberal Dutch. We want them gone and we want it done yesterday. The isis fans and pro Sharia idiots really crossed a line and Muslims in general have to pay for that now. They should have acted years ago..