So, I think the bag of evidence regarding muslims unintegrability is full

[Grant]

I agree with Grant on wilders, he is becoming mainstream. The left is showing fear of extremists, the people don't like that. Them not acting pushes the people to Wilders. Nobody wants this ectremist madness in their country, not even the most liberal Dutch. We want them gone and we want it done yesterday. The isis fans and pro Sharia idiots really crossed a line and Muslims in general have to pay for that now. They should have acted years ago..

Do you know this neighborhood, David?Krugerplein, Again

 

[William Rea]

Firstly that guerrilla war is recent...I would add "hand your European passport and citizenship" over while you're at it.

I'm sure that there were people that adopted the same attitude towards the British that left to fight for the Republic in the Spanish civil War. I do not support ad hoc law making based upon subjective judgements however, we have to find a way of not re-importing hatred and what that should or could look like is beyond me right now.

Anyway, it has certainly been progress that people are finally recognising what a ridiculous idea it is to import Third World cultural hate via religion. ALL religions have been facilitators for this from Christians via Africa to Islam via Asia and tacitly by trying to deflect any curbing of state facilitating of religion as an attack in general on 'Faith Communities'. Time to call BS on it.

 

[mbig]

Le Monde, Jan 24, 2013
(Google Translate)
And I think the numbers would be even worse were it not for the fact 10% of France is Muslim, and part of the poll.

The Muslim religion is the subject of a Profound Rejection by the French
THE WORLD | 24.01.2013 at 11:26 • Updated 24.01.2013 at 7:02 p.m. |
By Stéphanie Le Bars
La religion musulmane fait l'objet d'un profond rejet de la part des Français

Rarely distrust towards Islam has been clearly expressed by the French population. 74% of those surveyed by Ipsos argue that Islam is a religion "intolerant" inconsistent with the values ​​of French society.
Figure even more radical, 8 out of 10 French believe that Islam seeks "to impose its mode of operation to the other."
Finally, more than Half believe that Muslims are "mostly" (10%) or "partially" (44%) "fundamentalists", without that we know what is meant by this term.
[........]​

 

[Coin]

Europe is creating an opportunity for the creation of Eurabia because EU people are not having enough children.
And Islam is still making an impact on the educated classes of Europe.

 

[David_H]

Europe is creating an opportunity for the creation of Eurabia because EU people are not having enough children.
And Islam is still making an impact on the educated classes of Europe.

Child birth and prosperity are statisticly connected, rich people don't like babies and poor people do for some reason.

There is no garantee that the children of Muslims stay muslim though. We all come from Christians but many of us are atheïst or "Christmas Christians" (only go to Church at christmas)

the numbers are scary but they are based on linear thinking. Which seldomly works when predicting the future.

It does show it is time to start training imams in Europe that respect our world instead of importing hate imams from arabia and central asia, those hate our guts big time.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I would think the first step should involve public awareness above all else. ALL Islamists are dangerous in the long run, since they seek to undermine the British way of life and replace it with theirs, and so it really isn't so much a matter of separating out only those in immediate danger of performing violent acts, but exposing the degree to which the generalized ideology is actually held -- which is quite considerable in Britain.

I think the last 10 years at least are proof that action is being taken - the expulsion of hate speakers, the battles with European Courts to remove unwanted islamists, the discussion programmes on all channels here show that actions have been taken. That's not to say the picture is perfect - the schools fiasco shows that we have to be vigilant and some of our political bodies have engaged in appeasement rather than enforcing our values but the actions to remove a foolish Education Secretary who enabled fundamentalists and the "British Values" policy in schools shows we are not just sitting waiting for our destruction.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

And I will repeat. "As far as I know there were no ISIS (or ISL) protesting or causing problems anywhere in Canada or the United States" The interviewee said there will be and he is probably right.

:doh That was what I was saying...

And 47% approval in The Netherlands, which would make him mainstream.

Document that please. He achieved no more than 16% support in any national election since 2010

Muslims agitators are Muslims agitators? Great stuff!Had you read the post more carefully you would see the point about 'left' and 'right' in this instance being quite meaningless.

Read what I was responding to, you asked "Would Muslim agitators then be "extreme left"? " and I clarified that for you. That you don't like the response shows your limited vocabulary and understanding.

Can you point out where I suggested otherwise?

I clarified that for you. That you don't like the response shows your limited vocabulary and understanding.

And what do I want to hear?

Whatever Mark Steyn and Gatestone Institute tell you is the truth.

Yes, I'll be sure to do that.
You're quite the revolutionary.

I'm sure you won't, your posting history is adequate proof.

Well whatever you're trying to do you're rude and tiresome, and I've no further interest in your adolescent posts.

Stop quoting me and ignore me then.

 

[Andalublue]

Bloody religious at it again man! Luckily we control religious fanatics by putting primary value on nationalism. Nationalism can kick some religious butt from here back to wherever they may have came from.

But then nationalism is perceived as bad from Europe. Sometimes one just cannot win it seems, but what you gonna do.

I wonder how Europe could have got the impression that nationalism is cancerous? The genius in your neck of the woods was that in the former Yugoslavia the nationalists managed to incorporate religion into their nationalism. If I were Kosovan/Serbian/Bosnian/Croat I don't think I'd be quite so self-satisfied.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

I'm sure that there were people that adopted the same attitude towards the British that left to fight for the Republic in the Spanish civil War. I do not support ad hoc law making based upon subjective judgements however, we have to find a way of not re-importing hatred and what that should or could look like is beyond me right now.

Will, there have been a variety of suggestions on the citizenship thread; none of the ones posted by PeteEU / Andalublue / Alexa are long term solutions. Letting jihadis come back unfettered is not an answer - whether we tie up countless security personnel in surveillance or tag these people.
The alternate is to enable their deaths while overseas - Alexa has a strong belief Western security forces hand details over for drone strikes but the numbers don't tally. We could put the SAS or other groups in to kill these people and ensure they don't return but I've not advocated that. Removal of citizenship is the least worst solution to prevent live jihadis coming back.

-- Anyway, it has certainly been progress that people are finally recognising what a ridiculous idea it is to import Third World cultural hate via religion. ALL religions have been facilitators for this from Christians via Africa to Islam via Asia and tacitly by trying to deflect any curbing of state facilitating of religion as an attack in general on 'Faith Communities'. Time to call BS on it.

It needs more than this, our governments need to stand up and be counted, enforce western values. I don't mean meaningless debate on the burkha but to tackle hate preachers, madrassas, faith schools etc. This also means allowing sharia law but making it absolutely plain where the limits are and prosecuting any preachers / muslim clerics who try and breach the limits. The question of fitting into our society has to be absolutely made clear.
In many societies - including Australia it seems, some of the jihadis fighting in Syria and some of their enablers have also been on benefits in their western host.

I've not had time to read and cogitate - however this article gives some thought to the issue -

Australian jihadists fighting overseas should be stripped of their citizenship | Malcolm Fraser | Comment is free | theguardian.com

It even raises the crime of "treachery" which is a whole new avenue of thought.

 

[Coin]

Child birth and prosperity are statisticly connected, rich people don't like babies and poor people do for some reason.

There is no garantee that the children of Muslims stay muslim though. We all come from Christians but many of us are atheïst or "Christmas Christians" (only go to Church at christmas)

the numbers are scary but they are based on linear thinking. Which seldomly works when predicting the future.

It does show it is time to start training imams in Europe that respect our world instead of importing hate imams from arabia and central asia, those hate our guts big time.

I believe Muslims will be integrated pretty much well in EU. Of course it will be hard and harsh at the begging for both sides but it will be worthed.

Just as it happened with black people in US.

 

[DDD]

I wonder how Europe could have got the impression that nationalism is cancerous? The genius in your neck of the woods was that in the former Yugoslavia the nationalists managed to incorporate religion into their nationalism. If I were Kosovan/Serbian/Bosnian/Croat I don't think I'd be quite so self-satisfied.

Why not to be satisfied by the premise of using religion to feed our national identities?

 

[Andalublue]

Why not to be satisfied by the premise of using religion to feed our national identities?

I think that's indeed what happened, and look at the result: 140,000 deaths and 4 million people displaced. Nice going, nationalists!

 

[Rainman05]

I believe Muslims will be integrated pretty much well in EU. Of course it will be hard and harsh at the begging for both sides but it will be worthed.

Just as it happened with black people in US.

I don't think you have evidence to support that.

Again, they're also 2 different things.

Blacks in america have been uprooted, they didn't have much of an identity (or what little they had was supplanted, but slaves they were and slaves they remained on both sides of the atlantic), in fact, american blacks vs african blacks are as different from one another in quite significant ways.
Muslims aren't that way at all.

So again, what do you base your statements on. There is no working model. I don't see one. I looked and looked around the world, there is nothing that works.

 

[DDD]

I think that's indeed what happened, and look at the result: 140,000 deaths and 4 million people displaced. Nice going, nationalists!

Feeding the national identity with religion does not automatically makes us nationalists Andal. Patriots yes, but not nationalists.

Plus are you alluding to the recent Balkan wars that liberated people from Yugoslavia during 1990's with those figures?

 

[DDD]

So again, what do you base your statements on. There is no working model. I don't see one. I looked and looked around the world, there is nothing that works.

As I said prioritizing national values above religion (thus keeping the country secular) is the only one that works. It is what brought the Ottoman Empire down too.

 

[Rainman05]

As I said prioritizing national values above religion (thus keeping the country secular) is the only one that works. It is what brought the Ottoman Empire down too.

Right, I don't dispute that and a lot of things brought the ottomans down, thank for that, but there is no working model for that in islam, ok?

The persians and the turks managed to create an identity for themselves, as I said, because they didn't adopt arabic, which played, I think, a huge role in letting them develop their own identity. Otherwise they would have been engulfed in the sea of muslim identity. Which is what most of arabia and north africa are. The people there are muslim first, of whatever kind, and then anything else. And ofc, when they come here, in the EU, those slight variations become inconsistent, they disappear, and it's just muslims. And then, you know the drill, i repeated this many times so far, I'm not interested in going about it again.

 

[Coin]

I don't think you have evidence to support that.

Again, they're also 2 different things.

Blacks in america have been uprooted, they didn't have much of an identity (or what little they had was supplanted, but slaves they were and slaves they remained on both sides of the atlantic), in fact, american blacks vs african blacks are as different from one another in quite significant ways.
Muslims aren't that way at all.

So again, what do you base your statements on. There is no working model. I don't see one. I looked and looked around the world, there is nothing that works.

Well, do not expect to have the same picture.
Not only because Muslims are different from black people, but for the reason that we live in a more moderated era (compared with the previous one) and for the reason that in EU we do not have coffee bars with signs like "Muslims and dogs are not allowed".

You have Mulsims in EU everywhere, at work, at school, in your neighborhood, in your palace.
These people will make friends, many of them will fall in love, they will share their culture, ideas, life stories etc etc.
It's not something which can be achieved or stopped with political tools. It's a process of development.

I am not afraid of this because EU full of Muslims does not mean that we are going to become like Arab countries.
It will be an engrafted result from 2 different cultures.
There are many things in EU that young Muslim envy. Most of young muslims want to be like us.

 

[Andalublue]

Feeding the national identity with religion does not automatically makes us nationalists Andal. Patriots yes, but not nationalists.

Would you like to elucidate us with what you believe the difference to be

Plus are you alluding to the recent Balkan wars that liberated people from Yugoslavia during 1990's with those figures?

I'm not alluding to it, I'm referring to it - a series of wars between nationalists (Bosnians partly exonerated), caused by nationalism.

 

[Rainman05]

Would you like to elucidate us with what you believe the difference to be

I'm not alluding to it, I'm referring to it - a series of wars between nationalists (Bosnians partly exonerated), caused by nationalism.

...

nationalism, religious differences, ethnic tensions, there were a lot of factors that contributed to the yugoslavian civil war lasting for almost a decade.

 

[DDD]

Would you like to elucidate us with what you believe the difference to be

There is a difference between nationalism and patriotism. Nationalism is something akin to the nations self-interest. It is only and only about the nation. One nation and no other nations out there:

Nationalism | Define Nationalism at Dictionary.com


Patriotism is the love for one's country. But this does not excludes other countries from the picture. Its various patriotic nations working together and sharing the love they have for their own countries.

Patriotism | Define Patriotism at Dictionary.com

I'm not alluding to it, I'm referring to it - a series of wars between nationalists (Bosnians partly exonerated), caused by nationalism.

So how are we not exonerated also?

 

[DDD]

Right, I don't dispute that and a lot of things brought the ottomans down, thank for that, but there is no working model for that in islam, ok?

The persians and the turks managed to create an identity for themselves, as I said, because they didn't adopt arabic, which played, I think, a huge role in letting them develop their own identity. Otherwise they would have been engulfed in the sea of muslim identity. Which is what most of arabia and north africa are. The people there are muslim first, of whatever kind, and then anything else. And ofc, when they come here, in the EU, those slight variations become inconsistent, they disappear, and it's just muslims. And then, you know the drill, i repeated this many times so far, I'm not interested in going about it again.

Well of course there is no nationalism in religion just as well as there is no religion in nationalism. These are incompatible concepts at play.

So what needs to be done is that religion needs to be confronted with national values and be put to its secondary (at best) place. This I hear is already occurring. Scandinavians had forgotten about national values and I hear they are going for Nazi training in Ukraine. Now Nazism and national values do differ and I think that is an overreaction. But that is what is happening.

A country that prioritizes national values first and respects other nationalities at the same time is what is required. This is what I call patriotism.

 

[David_H]

Do you know this neighborhood, David?Krugerplein, Again

I don't, I only know of the troublesome neighbourhood in Den Haag.

Thinking we are fighting terrorism (be it witchcraft, the IRA, the basks in Spain, fanatic muslims or the Rote armee fration) we tend to sacrifice our liberties and prosperity. Fighting terrorisme in the popular way achieves what the "terrorists" are said to want. The patriot act is the absolute proof of that misuse of created panic.

Irrationable fear is created by many people, with many agendas and interests, very likely those are not our own.

This video puts things back in perspective:



If people wish to protect their way of life they should do exactly that and make no exceptions in times a "great fear" is installed by those that profit from that fear.

So I stand firm in my belief, we are dealing with a very small created threat in our midst that is overhyped by those with interests in that and if allowed by the people will be used to install a "patriot act" like "law" (or rather the stealing of our laws and rights) on Europe.

I would rather fight a 1000 islamic extremists in the streets (if we can find so many) with bare hands myself then sign of on my rights in order for the government to deal with "them" "faster". Once the laws stand, they stand and can be used on everybody.


The irrational fear of all muslims is a much greater threat then the extremists themselves, for us and for the muslim communities within our world.

Fear nothing but fear.

 

[David_H]

I don't think you have evidence to support that.

Again, they're also 2 different things. .

Bring on the statistics on violence from American immigrants.

You say it is not the same but it is in a way. If I walk around New York making some strange signs with my hands and dragging one leg it's quite likely I offended someone and get shot. Doing those things that mean nothing to me I offend those gangsters.

That's them pushing their culture on me like "extremist muslims" (which are in 98% of the incindents just arab wannabe gangsters) pushing it on us here.

There are arabs, there are muslims, there are arab gangsters and there are salafis and wahabis. People tend to pile that up under the name "muslim immigrant" but that is just inacurate and very counter productive if you want to solve this problem. If you treat them all as filth they will all start behaving as filth.


I don't have the statistics but I think they will wow you in the matter of immigrant violence US vs EU (which is nothing more then them pushing their will on the others)

 

[Rainman05]

Looks like it's not just France, but in the UK too.
Gaza protesters storm Tesco store and 'assault police' during demonstration - Crime - UK - The Independent

Gaza protesters storm Tesco store and 'assault police' during demonstration

About 100 demonstrators gathered outside a branch of the store in Hodge Hill, Birmingham, on Saturday, before entering the shop. Once inside, they reportedly threw goods around the store.

Pictures on social media showed items and smashed cans of drinks strewn across the shop floor. One witness described seeing demonstrators carrying Palestinian flags while chanting and behaving “aggressively” to people inside the store, Birmingham Updates reported.

https://twitter.com/BhamUpdates/status/500666496641941504/photo/1

link to pictures.

Ah well.

I should start renaming the topic from bag is full to bag is spilling out.

 

[Serenity]

Looks like it's not just France, but in the UK too.
Gaza protesters storm Tesco store and 'assault police' during demonstration - Crime - UK - The Independent




https://twitter.com/BhamUpdates/status/500666496641941504/photo/1

link to pictures.

Ah well.

I should start renaming the topic from bag is full to bag is spilling out.

From your link...

Our officers dealt with a protest at Tesco, Hodge Hill this afternoon where some disorder was reported. One arrested for assaulting police. The protest was largely peaceful among the 100 protesters but some began throwing stock inside Tesco store. Two [were] escorted from [the] premises.”

100 protestors and the protest was largely peaceful. That's a good thing yes? What a shame that has been overshadowed by some idiots.