So, I think the bag of evidence regarding muslims unintegrability is full

[Rainman05]

I don't like to say it because I've often said that it's just a minority, a tiny minority and not represenative of the majority who are just like you and me and would decry this affair if they could and they just wanna live in peace... then I kinda started thinking that maybe this tiny minority is actually enabled by the silent majority who either silently approves or isn't doing any significant effort in painting a different image(there are isolated cases but they're an even tinier minority)and now I'm kinda convinced that maybe it's pretty much a hopeless case and that the mindset should be "prove that you can fit in and until then, no go".

And it's awful but it's true.

So for the past 10 days there have been riots in France, not just in paris but other cities that are heavily populated with arabs and north africans. Like the one in 2005 and the one just last year, this one too is violent, it's disruptive and destructive and it's massive. And ofc, it's fueled by muslim religious nationalism which is a combination of religious zealotry and ofc, pan-arab and pan-islamic nationalism.
So that sucks.

So where is Europe heading? Lets look elsewhere in the world to see what's up.

Are we heading in the direction of Malaysia who had adopted sharia? The islamic majority there is a small majority, just 60% and they enforced a religious doctrine on everyone. So they're not interested in respecting other peoples' faiths, but rather, just their own. But already, in europe, most european countries with heavy islamic populations made huge concessions that only they demand. "but rainman, the burka!"; yes, the burka was banned because it was an obstructionist clothing, much like ski masks and other face covers.

Because it sure as **** doesn't seem to be the islam of urban indonesia who is quite liberal by islamic standards.
Or will it be the islam of the philipines who have been doing a civil war in that country for 50 years despite the fact that the islamic population is just about 8%.
The reason I ask this is because we seem to be importing the crazy islam in Europe. We have islamists from iraq, northern africa and turkey which I'll grant this, they seem to be the least fanatical or predisposed to fanaticism. And ofc, then there are islamists from africa like somalia or eritrea or other places. It seems that in the past 5 years, every year, there has been a massive riot fueled by islamic fanaticism in the wake of something that upset, even by a bit, the muslims.

Ofc, they weren't the only rioters but ofc, they're the focus point of this discussion.

I think it's an endemic problem and I don't see how it can be solved. I really don't. I said that education won't solve it in another thread and I gave the example that most of the people who did the terrorist bombings in spain and the UK were intelligent muslims who would seem integrated by any measurable metric. They had an education, they had a job, some even their own business, they had money, a family, so you can't get more integrated than that. So they didn't do riots, they did terrorism.

And ofc, this will only get worse. The fact that there has been a record number of "refugees" from northern africa into italy, this year was a record high and the year isn't over, without having any method to verify these people, how many of them do you think were in fact, jihadists? Or just criminals who wanna come and set up a crime network. I don't know numbers, but I'm willing to bet that it was a significant amount to make a difference in the statistics. There is no way to screen the refugees who were picked up, god knows how many evaded the patrol boats, to identify if they're really valid refugees or criminals. So I think we're going to see a lot more problems. I'm just not sure it's worth putting up with it. There has been a riot in one or more european countries every year for the past few years. Riot, not protest, riots. And I'm not even counting regular crimes.

 

[DDD]

Bloody religious at it again man! Luckily we control religious fanatics by putting primary value on nationalism. Nationalism can kick some religious butt from here back to wherever they may have came from.

But then nationalism is perceived as bad from Europe. Sometimes one just cannot win it seems, but what you gonna do.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I too have had some growing doubts about the capabilities of muslims to integrate, but I can't help but be confused by the fact that Germany has almost as much muslims by number and percentage as France, but Germany has very few problems with them. Could there perhaps be a difference in approach or something else we might be missing?

Europe Overview | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

 

[sookster]

I understand what you are saying, but the ideals that we live by allow these people to practice their religion, no matter how extreme they may be. Afterall, I live in Missouri and the KKK has a slogan sign by one of the highways. I think this is another testament that nothing can be perfect, and frankly discriminating on muslims is setting ourselves for a lot more of a headache. I'm not sure what we can do to filter out so to speak the jihadists from the rest of the population, and then acquire evidence to put them into trial or deportation. I think your prediction is sound. I believe we are in for more headaches, especially considering the death toll towards the jihadists that we the United States are responsible for. But again, what we can do to prevent this from happening would violate the ideals we live by. I fear that another attack/more violence is a requirement until we change our philosophies on how to handle muslims in our country.

 

[Rainman05]

I too have had some growing doubts about the capabilities of muslims to integrate, but I can't help but be confused by the fact that Germany has almost as much muslims by number and percentage as France, but Germany has very few problems with them. Could there perhaps be a difference in approach or something else we might be missing?

Europe Overview | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

Most are turks, and most of those turks are from western turkey. Which even today is a bastion of liberalism in turkey. Istanbul, Izmir have been very vocal centers for protest against erdograns effort in islamizing turkey. Turkey is ofc, the only islamic country that isn't a dictatorship (eh... well, for now) that is a secular democracy. And this is due to the fact that istanbul and izmir are economic powerhouses of turkey and they're pushing for liberalism. Ofc, in Ankara, this is not the case. It's a much more religious fundamentalist city. Just ask any turk, even medusa will say exactly this in broken english.

I recognized in the OP, and I will always do, that turks seem to be less predisposed to this, in fact, quite by a large margin, than say, muslims from pakistan or iraq or muslims from northern africa like libya and algeria. But these muslims, from those regions, are the ones who seem to be quite troublesome. nd they're the majority of muslim immigrants.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Most are turks, and most of those turks are from western turkey. Which even today is a bastion of liberalism in turkey. Istanbul, Izmir have been very vocal centers for protest against erdograns effort in islamizing turkey. Turkey is ofc, the only islamic country that isn't a dictatorship (eh... well, for now) that is a secular democracy. And this is due to the fact that istanbul and izmir are economic powerhouses of turkey and they're pushing for liberalism. Ofc, in Ankara, this is not the case. It's a much more religious fundamentalist city. Just ask any turk, even medusa will say exactly this in broken english.

I recognized in the OP, and I will always do, that turks seem to be less predisposed to this, in fact, quite by a large margin, than say, muslims from pakistan or iraq or muslims from northern africa like libya and algeria. But these muslims, from those regions, are the ones who seem to be quite troublesome. nd they're the majority of muslim immigrants.

So what is the fundamental difference that makes turkish muslims peaceful, integrated Döner shop owners, and the others unintegratable? Do you think it's a unique turkish cultural reason or do you think it's something that can eventually happen to other muslim countries?

 

[Rainman05]

So what is the fundamental difference that makes turkish muslims peaceful, integrated Döner shop owners, and the others unintegratable? Do you think it's a unique turkish cultural reason or do you think it's something that can eventually happen to other muslim countries?

Well, it's a lot of things.

But lets start with what I attribute to be the most important difference: turks and persians didn't adopt the koran in arabic and never adopted arabic as the primary language which meant that there was a traditional disconnect between the arab-speaking world and the imams and religious practices there and these 2 other places. ofc, in persia, the disconnect is even stronger as they abide by shia islam, not sunni. But that's irrelevant for this topic. So it's the language difference that sort of divorced the islamic traditions of the arabic speaking world from the turkish population and so, it formed it's own traditions.

The 2nd one is ofc, the fact that the ottomans had far more contact, over the course of history, with the west than the rest of the arabic world. And not just war, though war was the dominant "exchange' between the ottoman empire and countries like hungary and austria who stood against them. But the ottomans formed on-and-off friendship with the british due to strategic interest of course. A lot more turks went to study in the west than people from arabia and northern africa and ofc, at times, the sultans' lower ranking sons would be shipped off to live in western nations for a period of time. this was done for a multitude of reasons which I won't go into now.

The 3rd is ofc, the formation of turkey itself and kermal ataturk who was a fascist, basically... an autocrat, but a secular one. He only really allowed for elections to happen after he was done with his rule. Not all that different than say, saddam hussein, but only more geared towards rebuilding turkey and salvaging what was left of a decrepit empire. But a lot of turks love him, he is the father of turkey. And he tried to introduce western values into turkey. So it has a 100 years old tradition of this thing where as most arabic and north african countries don't.

EDIT:
To try and make things a bit more clear.
Look at the immigrants from pakistan or iraq or northern africa. They refer to themselves as muslims. That's their primary identity. They barely if ever think of themselves in terms of nationality. This is because muslim is the identity. It's basically a 3-1 identity. It takes the place of ethnic identity, it takes the place of national identity (at least outside of those countries) and it takes the religious identity. Turks call themselves as turks. It's a subtle thing which only really hit me a few days ago when the riots happened.

 

[David_H]

If you look at islamic immigrant birthrates vs "native european" birthrates your headaches will be over in a few years, they will be the majority and we will be the minority (since we produce only a max of two children per family on average and they about 5, these numbers can be extrapolated exponantially).

This is to narrow a vision though, one can not predict how many will lose their religion (as most Europeans have done to some extend these past generations) and how much native Europeans will convert to Islam. We also do not know if these numbers will remain as they are since it shows that prosperity makes for a decline in birthrates.

There is nothing that can be done about it within our cultural acceptance. It can be slowed down by a firm hand to stop immigration and by taking on a chinese "one kid per familiy" law but that's quite a loaded proposal...

 

[joG]

I too have had some growing doubts about the capabilities of muslims to integrate, but I can't help but be confused by the fact that Germany has almost as much muslims by number and percentage as France, but Germany has very few problems with them. Could there perhaps be a difference in approach or something else we might be missing?

Europe Overview | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

One thing is that the banglieus are much more horrible than most German slums as bad as they are. Another is that the French immigrants have been more rigorously excluded and the problem has been simmering much longer, so that while the Muslims are at best second generation slumers the French equivalent has been studying being outcast for three or four, sometimes 5.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

So what is the fundamental difference that makes turkish muslims peaceful, integrated Döner shop owners, and the others unintegratable? Do you think it's a unique turkish cultural reason or do you think it's something that can eventually happen to other muslim countries?

it could be Turkish culture, during the times of the Ottoman Empire I think it was Mary wallstonecraft from the Enlightenment who admired Ottoman culture and even spoke highly of it, with one of the highlights being how well they respected women in society. Yet today in other Islamic nations women are treated like dirt, I don't think is the case for Turkey even after all those centuries.

 

[Reformedfindlay]

If you look at islamic immigrant birthrates vs "native european" birthrates your headaches will be over in a few years, they will be the majority and we will be the minority (since we produce only a max of two children per family on average and they about 5, these numbers can be extrapolated exponantially).

This is to narrow a vision though, one can not predict how many will lose their religion (as most Europeans have done to some extend these past generations) and how much native Europeans will convert to Islam. We also do not know if these numbers will remain as they are since it shows that prosperity makes for a decline in birthrates.

There is nothing that can be done about it within our cultural acceptance. It can be slowed down by a firm hand to stop immigration and by taking on a chinese "one kid per familiy" law but that's quite a loaded proposal...

More than loaded, China's one kid per family has ****ed it so hard it's not even funny, in some places you go you can hardly see one woman without seeing 10-15 men. At some point that's gunna bite China in the ass.

 

[WCH]

As bad as Islamist are in Europe, whenever someone comes out with public criticism, they are threaten with jail time for hate crimes. I honestly believe most of Europe is afraid of what they might do in retaliation.

James McConnell row: Police probe firebrand pastor who called Islam 'spawn of the devil' - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

 

[Rainman05]

it could be Turkish culture, during the times of the Ottoman Empire I think it was Mary wallstonecraft from the Enlightenment who admired Ottoman culture and even spoke highly of it, with one of the highlights being how well they respected women in society. Yet today in other Islamic nations women are treated like dirt, I don't think is the case for Turkey even after all those centuries.

It's not "ottoman" culture that makes turks less predisposed to islamic fanaticism, it's turkish one, post-reformation of turkey. It's mainly Ataturk and (forgotten) friends who introduced secular democracy in turkey to salvage it.

 

[DDD]

I too have had some growing doubts about the capabilities of muslims to integrate, but I can't help but be confused by the fact that Germany has almost as much muslims by number and percentage as France, but Germany has very few problems with them. Could there perhaps be a difference in approach or something else we might be missing?

Europe Overview | Pew Research Center's Religion & Public Life Project

Post WW2 nationalism image.

So what is the fundamental difference that makes turkish muslims peaceful, integrated Döner shop owners, and the others unintegratable? Do you think it's a unique turkish cultural reason or do you think it's something that can eventually happen to other muslim countries?

The answer is here:

EDIT:
To try and make things a bit more clear.
Look at the immigrants from pakistan or iraq or northern africa. They refer to themselves as muslims. That's their primary identity. They barely if ever think of themselves in terms of nationality. This is because muslim is the identity. It's basically a 3-1 identity. It takes the place of ethnic identity, it takes the place of national identity (at least outside of those countries) and it takes the religious identity. Turks call themselves as turks. It's a subtle thing which only really hit me a few days ago when the riots happened.

and here:

it could be Turkish culture, during the times of the Ottoman Empire I think it was Mary wallstonecraft from the Enlightenment who admired Ottoman culture and even spoke highly of it, with one of the highlights being how well they respected women in society. Yet today in other Islamic nations women are treated like dirt, I don't think is the case for Turkey even after all those centuries.

Which is nationalistic values having higher priority than religious ones. Also, I would like to present the obvious weakness of the religious trying to implement a higher than nationalistic values on foreign countries.

It is of course about land. Nationalism priorities lands where a nation has lived for centuries or sometimes (like in our case) for millenniums. So you ask a religious person:

You: What do you value more, the land or religion?

They: Religion!

You: Well then you can do that from where you came from cannot you? Why bother getting here?

Then you invite them to express their God damn national values, not freaking religious values, and explore together how freaking assimilated they have become!

 

[David_H]

So what is the fundamental difference that makes turkish muslims peaceful, integrated Döner shop owners, and the others unintegratable? Do you think it's a unique turkish cultural reason or do you think it's something that can eventually happen to other muslim countries?

We see the same here, no problems what so ever with Turkish muslims or Ethnic Turks in general, I think Turks believe in the self made man and see Europe as a place to make that dream come true. I do not know Turks that are jobless. The latest generation of Turks in Holland is either well educated and therefor has a nice job or they own a business, integration is essential for their daily bread.

Later generations of Marroccans are predominantly the integrating headache over here, quite strange because their elders did integrate into the labour and social aspects of our society to an extend. These later generations seem to be unwilling to accept the local mainstream identity and wish to be create a new marroccan one without knowing what that actually is, they have never seen it...

Afghani and Iraqi fugetives are outnumbered and seem to push for mainstream integration since that looks to be easier then acceptance in minority sub cultures. The fact that they are outnumbered is actually very important in the integration in my opinion, Sweden is said to have a great problems with Afghani fugitives, Europes rape capital of Malmo is heavily populated with Afghani fugetives who have created their own sub culture and cannot be integrated in main stream Swedish society. Rape incidents have trippled I believe since the arrival of these fugitives.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

As bad as Islamist are in Europe, whenever someone comes out with public criticism, they are threaten with jail time for hate crimes. I honestly believe most of Europe is afraid of what they might do in retaliation.

James McConnell row: Police probe firebrand pastor who called Islam 'spawn of the devil' - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

Ha, the ****ing Irish, just as messed up and bat **** crazy as the Brits. Charging a pastor with a hate crime for calling another religion spawn of the devil during his own sermon. This is not how most of Europe is.

 

[DDD]

It's not "ottoman" culture that makes turks less predisposed to islamic fanaticism, it's turkish one, post-reformation of turkey. It's mainly Ataturk and (forgotten) friends who introduced secular democracy in turkey to salvage it.

He in turn was grown in a mixed family with Albanian and Turkish values. So you have European values transferred there and spread in Turkiye. That is why they are truly something between the west and the east, geographically and culturally.

 

[DDD]

Afghani and Iraqi fugetives are outnumbered and seem to push for mainstream integration since that looks to be easier then acceptance in minority sub cultures. The fact that they are outnumbered is actually very important in the integration in my opinion, Sweden is said to have a great problems with Afghani fugitives, Europes rape capital of Malmo is heavily populated with Afghani fugetives who have created their own sub culture and cannot be integrated in main stream Swedish society. Rape incidents have trippled I believe since the arrival of these fugitives.

I hear of not Afghani problems, but of Somalian ones. How on earth did Somalians reached that far north in Europe?!

 

[Reformedfindlay]

Ha, the ****ing Irish, just as messed up and bat **** crazy as the Brits. Charging a pastor with a hate crime for calling another religion spawn of the devil during his own sermon. This is not how most of Europe is.

Yeah but the brits took over the world

 

[David_H]

I hear of not Afghani problems, but of Somalian ones. How on earth did Somalians reached that far north in Europe?!

By plane, it was a hype to "help" these people, now their helping theirselves..

I was wrong, North africans are Malmo's concern..

TheOPINIONATOR: Sweden Tops Europe for Number of Rapes = Muslim Rape Jihad

 

[Visbek]

then I kinda started thinking that maybe this tiny minority is actually enabled by the silent majority who either silently approves or isn't doing any significant effort in painting a different image.....

So, an unfalsifiable claim. Very useful.

So for the past 10 days there have been riots in France

Isn't that, like, par for the course? :mrgreen:

More seriously, you have to keep in mind that the French don't seem terribly interested in a pluralistic society, and their idea of "integration" appears to be "act like you're French, and shut up if les flics beat the snot out of you on a regular basis." The hard right in much of Europe apparently wants to drive anyone who does not have a European lineage right out of Europe, including the Roma.

So where is Europe heading?

Well, around 3.2% of Europe is Muslim. From what I can tell, somewhere around 7.5% of France is Muslim, and this will probably go up to 10% by 2013.

Are we heading in the direction of Malaysia who had adopted sharia?

No. Muslims are highly unlikely to gain anywhere near the population, let alone political power, to pull that off. That's just FUD.

But already, in europe, most european countries with heavy islamic populations made huge concessions that only they demand. "but rainman, the burka!"; yes, the burka was banned because it was an obstructionist clothing, much like ski masks and other face covers.

Please. Don't pretend that France banned headgear as a public safety issue. The law explicitly targeted religious symbols in schools, in order to enforce secularity.

You'd also have to explain which laws, in your view, are "huge concessions" to Muslims in France or Europe.

Because it sure as **** doesn't seem to be the islam of urban indonesia who is quite liberal by islamic standards.

Indonesia also has problems with militants.

There are about 1 billion Muslims in the world. If they truly wanted to wreck the world, I think they'd be less subtle about it.

I think it's an endemic problem and I don't see how it can be solved. I really don't.

You could start by treating them less like a plague of locusts, and more like citizens. Just a thought.

And ofc, this will only get worse. The fact that there has been a record number of "refugees" from northern africa into italy, this year was a record high and the year isn't over, without having any method to verify these people, how many of them do you think were in fact, jihadists?

Please. Islamaphobia is just the latest scare tactic. Demonizing "those people" is not going to help.

 

[DDD]

By plane, it was a hype to "help" these people, now their helping theirselves..

I was wrong, North africans are Malmo's concern..

TheOPINIONATOR: Sweden Tops Europe for Number of Rapes = Muslim Rape Jihad

What I heard is that Somalians are a real problem. Living in such extremes they are accustomed to violence and people cannot really force them to be obedient (they are not intimidated). So what happens is Swedes are responding by taking nationalism courses for a few months in Ukraine.

Going as extreme as including Nazi values even! But this then backfires from liberal far left movements:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MYMVfyHi0

 

[Goshin]

Becoming so politically correct that you can't defend yourself against a hostile outside culture, is societal suicide.

 

[Rainman05]

So, an unfalsifiable claim. Very useful.

since I've never seen your face in this subforum I don't expect you to be privy to prior discussions here.

Isn't that, like, par for the course? :mrgreen:

More seriously, you have to keep in mind that the French don't seem terribly interested in a pluralistic society, and their idea of "integration" appears to be "act like you're French, and shut up if les flics beat the snot out of you on a regular basis." The hard right in much of Europe apparently wants to drive anyone who does not have a European lineage right out of Europe, including the Roma.
Well, around 3.2% of Europe is Muslim. From what I can tell, somewhere around 7.5% of France is Muslim, and this will probably go up to 10% by 2013.
No. Muslims are highly unlikely to gain anywhere near the population, let alone political power, to pull that off. That's just FUD.

Please. Don't pretend that France banned headgear as a public safety issue. The law explicitly targeted religious symbols in schools, in order to enforce secularity.

You'd also have to explain which laws, in your view, are "huge concessions" to Muslims in France or Europe.

I grouped all your comments together.
So are you saying that for now, while they're in the minority, we're safe from sharia but when they'll become the majority, which they will in our lifetimes according to some, then we'll get sharia. So is that how it works out? We're safe until they become the majority then bam, sharia for all? Even though when they were a minority we safeguarded their rights and tolerated their beliefs. Well, that seems like an argument to not let that ever happen.

Yes, that's what integration is. To act like part of society. Obey the laws, the customs, take part in civil society and all that good stuff. And ofc, with muslims, there is the added bonus that even those that do seem integrated by all measurable standards will do religious terrorism, case and point: all major terrorist attacks in western countries in the past 15 years.

Concession: halal meat and the barbarism that it entails. This isn't an argument of the "industrial" type food production and butchery since i don't like a lot of things there, but it's not halal at least and there is no reason why to put some more barbaric behavior into the way animals are being treated.
Welfare for multiple wives. Hell, allowing multiple wives to begin with.
blasphemy laws against those who insult islam. It is considered hate speech even though what you speak is true.
And ofc, curtailing free speech to not insult islam. It is the only religion that is beyond criticism even though most western european countries have the highest numbers of atheists. Ofc, this wouldn't be possible in an islamized country as apostasy is death.

Indonesia also has problems with militants.

There are about 1 billion Muslims in the world. If they truly wanted to wreck the world, I think they'd be less subtle about it.

That's why I said the islam of urban indonesia. Not the islam in indonesia.

You could start by treating them less like a plague of locusts, and more like citizens. Just a thought.

But you just said that that's what they are. indirectly. You said that until they become a majority, we're safe, but when that happens, sharia for all. Seems a lot like a plague or a parasite to me.

Please. Islamaphobia is just the latest scare tactic. Demonizing "those people" is not going to help.

This isn't demonization.
I am being very fair in my analysis. I made the distinctions between turks and the rest of the islamists from other regions that seem to be the source of the problem. I presented why that is and I offered examples of countries who find themselves in similar positions, like the philipines who have been in a civil war between the non-islamic majority and the islamic 8% minority (similar to the number of muslims in europe) for 50 years.

And ofc, you, being what they would call a "dhimmi" are more than eager to dismiss these things, not talk on the issues and just make it about "the feels". It's not about "the feels" it's about reality.

EDIT: Also, keep in mind that at least on the surface, this is about muslims who hate jews and do rioting to attack them but ofc, everyone gets caught in the crossfire. And they do this coz of the palestine conflict. But the issue is that France has been a staunch critic of israel, even calling what is happening today in gaza a massacre. So there would be no reason why these people should revolt, not in france anyway. But they are rioting. They aren't protesting, they're rioting.

 

[David_H]

What I heard is that Somalians are a real problem. Living in such extremes they are accustomed to violence and people cannot really force them to be obedient (they are not intimidated). So what happens is Swedes are responding by taking nationalism courses for a few months in Ukraine.

Going as extreme as including Nazi values even! But this then backfires from liberal far left movements:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MYMVfyHi0

I have no experience with Somalians in general being a problem, i had a somalian friend in high school, he integrated fine, but again. He was heavily outnumbered and just integrated in main stream society..

I think getting immigrants out of the city and spreading them out all over the country will help prevent sub cultures and improve integration greatly.

The polarisation we are witnessing will do our culture no good I fear, deporting extremists, hateful imams and criminal immigrants will though..

Moderate Muslims seem to uphold the same values as Christians. One has to be Carefull to make the right call on whether it is the culture of origin or the religion that is causing trouble, social status is also a factor, the lower class of any community of any religion or culture brings forth the most unwanted behaviour and immigrants usually start of from there..

We've seen this before with non islamic immigrants too but I find it wworying how easily a moderate muslim can be made into a violent extremist.

The extremes we see in middle Eastern countrys have a lot to do with tribal loyalty, democracy doesn't work very well there because there are a lot of tribes there that do not relate to each others at all, dictators keep things stable. Turkey is not bothered by that and is quite a stable democracy run by muslims.