Should the man have any say in whether a woman aborts or not?

[Bodi]

She is taking preventive measures she is using abortion as a form of birth control. So you lose I guess. If that isn't birth control I don't know what is.

Abortion is not birth control by any sense of the imagination. I can see how you think and I am done talking to you about this... especially since condoms are not 100%. You are playing the sexism femi-Nazi game that is quite boring.

 

[DashingAmerican]

Do you agree that it is equally immoral for a male to expect a woman to take risks with her body to prevent pregnancy when all he has to do is use a condom? Or is that okay with you?

I think there are better things than condoms. Condoms aren't that highly effective, but it's certainly the ladies choice. Some of the contraceptives I can imagine are very uncomfortable and some are discomforting for both parties.

 

[katiegrrl0]

Abortion is not birth control by any sense of the imagination. I can see how you think and I am done talking to you about this... especially since condoms are not 100%. You are playing the sexism femi-Nazi game that is quite boring.

Did i say that I thought that way? No I did not. I said their are women that do not a majority but enough. You are asking women to take risks to prevent pregnancy. That is really sweet of you. You don't give a **** about the woman you just care about getting laid.Did i not also say that condoms were not 100%. You don't read for understanding. You might like to take a course in that it may help your posting skills.

 

[Bodi]

Did i say that I thought that way? No I did not. I said their are women that do not a majority but enough. You are asking women to take risks to prevent pregnancy. That is really sweet of you. You don't give a **** about the woman you just care about getting laid.Did i not also say that condoms were not 100%. You don't read for understanding. You might like to take a course in that it may help your posting skills.

Listen lady... you haven't said jack about that to me and your getting laid comment is just plain stupid. You are making idiotic assumptions left and right all the while bashing men and defending women.... Anything else or should I just write you off as a waste of thought?

 

[katiegrrl0]

I think there are better things than condoms. Condoms aren't that highly effective, but it's certainly the ladies choice. Some of the contraceptives I can imagine are very uncomfortable and some are discomforting for both parties.

I would imagine they are. I also think that any form of birth control that has a warning label on it would be pretty uncomfortable to take. So what is the alternative since I consider abortion as a means of BC silly and many other female options dangerous. (since I'm gay I don't worry about it)
I think asking a male to use a condom is the best alternative. Though I am not sure what that feels like either.

 

[katiegrrl0]

Listen lady... you haven't said jack about that to me and your getting laid comment is just plain stupid. You are making idiotic assumptions left and right all the while bashing men and defending women.... femi-Nazi. Anything else or should I just write you off as a waste of thought?

Read my posts and you will see what I have said. You're going off on me without knowing what I have said. I have yet to bash any males. I am suggesting that they wear condoms. If that is bashing than consider yourself bashed. How is stating that many forms of female birth control are dangerous or carry risks idiotic. How is saying that some women use abortion as BC idiotic. Both are true statements. How is suggesting that a male who is concerned about having a child or anti abortion wear a condom idiotic. So far the only idiotic statements have come from you. Like I said read my posts and you will see what I have been saying.

You sound as if you care nothing about the woman in your bed!

 

[X Factor]

Read my posts and you will see what I have said. You're going off on me without knowing what I have said. I have yet to bash any males. I am suggesting that they wear condoms. If that is bashing than consider yourself bashed. How is stating that many forms of female birth control are dangerous or carry risks idiotic. How is saying that some women use abortion as BC idiotic. Both are true statements. How is suggesting that a male who is concerned about having a child or anti abortion wear a condom idiotic. So far the only idiotic statements have come from you. Like I said read my posts and you will see what I have been saying.

You sound as if you care nothing about the woman in your bed!

You bashed Bodi when you said he doesn't care about women and just wanted to get laid. Maybe you should read some of his other comments regarding rape before you make uneducated statements about him.

 

[Bodi]

Read my posts and you will see what I have said. You're going off on me without knowing what I have said. I have yet to bash any males. I am suggesting that they wear condoms. If that is bashing than consider yourself bashed. How is stating that many forms of female birth control are dangerous or carry risks idiotic. How is saying that some women use abortion as BC idiotic. Both are true statements. How is suggesting that a male who is concerned about having a child or anti abortion wear a condom idiotic. So far the only idiotic statements have come from you. Like I said read my posts and you will see what I have been saying.

You sound as if you care nothing about the woman in your bed!

It is your callous assertions that the woman has all the power if the man simply does not use a condom. It is inaccurate. And there you go again with stupid assumptions about my thoughts towards women. Grow up. Get a life and take a hike.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I would imagine they are. I also think that any form of birth control that has a warning label on it would be pretty uncomfortable to take. So what is the alternative since I consider abortion as a means of BC silly and many other female options dangerous. (since I'm gay I don't worry about it)
I think asking a male to use a condom is the best alternative. Though I am not sure what that feels like either.

I'm sorry, but I really think you're talking out your ass, here. You have stated you have no idea what condoms feel like. Nor have you ever been on BC.

Here's the thing. I told you earlier I'm a Condom Nazi, right? And I am. But CONDOMS SUCK. They do. They really really do. They are the most evil necessary evil ever. They disrupt intimacy. They need to be checked on. They are a pain in the ass.

Also, even with perfect use, condoms are NEVER as effective as BC. I say this as a Condom Nazi who has never had a condom break. Because I am very particular about what condoms I buy, I always use them perfectly, etc. But I know that I can do everything right and still wind up with a broken condom. And that liklihood is higher than if I were on BC.

Why am I not? Because BC does bad things to me. I totally agree BC can also suck for some women. But I also know that I am a small minority. For most women, BC is not only comfortable to be on, but in most cases actually improves their PMS symptoms, lighten their periods, help control fluid cysts (which are very common in younger women), control disorders like PCOS, and even clear up acne. BC is not evil.

While I had a HORRIBLE experience with it, I would be an idiot to claim BC is bad because I turned out to be 1 in 1 million.

Condoms suck. And if you are one of the majority of women who tolerates BC well, there is every reason in the world to go on it rather than use condoms. It's more effective, it allows more intimacy, and the side effects for most women are mild, and after a few months, virtually non-existent.

You are making all these statements about things you clearly don't know anything about. You've never used them, you don't seem to have done any research on them, and you're wrong. If I was willing to risk trying BC again, I would. In a heartbeat.

My options are now effectively limited to the same as mens'. Condoms and sterilization. I'd like to be sterilized, but that'll take time and effort.

Birth control is the responsibility of the couple in whatever way they choose to do it. If the woman wants to be on BC (and lots do - it's highly effective, pretty safe, and allows THEM to be in control), are you seriously claiming the man "deserves it" if he doesn't wear a condom? Why would he? She's on BC, and condoms suck.

The way you're talking about abortion is also kind of uninformed. I really don't think there's a moral issue with abortion, but using it as birth control is stupid. Strictly speaking, yes, it is birth control. But repeated abortions can cause damage, and they are really, really expensive. I have no problem with abortion, and it's relatively easy to get in my state. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop using contraception. I'd prefer not to piss off my reproductive organs or my wallet any more than they already are. That's ridiculous.

And again, saying the man "asked for it" if he doesn't use a condom is just as sexist and ridiculous as anti-choicers using that argument on women. Discussing birth control is the responsibility of both parties. One using it and not the other is a perfectly viable strategy. Just because a man and women prefer the intimacy of condomless sex while using BC does not mean the man "asked for it." Not any more than the woman "asked for it" if she relied on her partner's condom.

You should really learn more about these subjects before talking about them.

 

[DemonMyst]

Then he should have worn a condom or kept it in his pants.

She should be on the pill and she could have kept her legs closed..

Works both ways.. It takes two to make a baby..

If she has a right to decide to abort and skip out on the responsibilities of a child, then I see no reason why a man can't share in that right.. If he can be forced to pay child support for a child he does not want.. Then yes.. He should have a say..

Either both parents are equally responsible or she bares the burdon alone and there is no child support.. If you don't want him to have a say, then he has no responsibility..

 

[katiegrrl0]

You bashed Bodi when you said he doesn't care about women and just wanted to get laid. Maybe you should read some of his other comments regarding rape before you make uneducated statements about him.

And as long as he continues to attack me without knowing what I have posted I will continue to do the same thing. You obviously didn't read enough either to see that he started with the attacks.

 

[katiegrrl0]

It is your callous assertions that the woman has all the power if the man simply does not use a condom. It is inaccurate. And there you go again with stupid assumptions about my thoughts towards women. Grow up. Get a life and take a hike.

If a male does not use a condom she certainly does have all the power. She can either 1 get and abortion 2 not get one. Once the male makes the decision not to use one he loses all power as the final decisions are hers. I did suggest in a post that I believe that in most stable relationships that there is discussion. You learn to read with understanding and we will not have the problems we have had. Tell me now what power you think a male has after not using a condom? You suggest that he has some I would like to know what that is?

 

[katiegrrl0]

I'm sorry, but I really think you're talking out your ass, here. You have stated you have no idea what condoms feel like. Nor have you ever been on BC.

Here's the thing. I told you earlier I'm a Condom Nazi, right? And I am. But CONDOMS SUCK. They do. They really really do. They are the most evil necessary evil ever. They disrupt intimacy. They need to be checked on. They are a pain in the ass.

Also, even with perfect use, condoms are NEVER as effective as BC. I say this as a Condom Nazi who has never had a condom break. Because I am very particular about what condoms I buy, I always use them perfectly, etc. But I know that I can do everything right and still wind up with a broken condom. And that liklihood is higher than if I were on BC.

Why am I not? Because BC does bad things to me. I totally agree BC can also suck for some women. But I also know that I am a small minority. For most women, BC is not only comfortable to be on, but in most cases actually improves their PMS symptoms, lighten their periods, help control fluid cysts (which are very common in younger women), control disorders like PCOS, and even clear up acne. BC is not evil.

While I had a HORRIBLE experience with it, I would be an idiot to claim BC is bad because I turned out to be 1 in 1 million.

Condoms suck. And if you are one of the majority of women who tolerates BC well, there is every reason in the world to go on it rather than use condoms. It's more effective, it allows more intimacy, and the side effects for most women are mild, and after a few months, virtually non-existent.

You are making all these statements about things you clearly don't know anything about. You've never used them, you don't seem to have done any research on them, and you're wrong. If I was willing to risk trying BC again, I would. In a heartbeat.

My options are now effectively limited to the same as mens'. Condoms and sterilization. I'd like to be sterilized, but that'll take time and effort.

Birth control is the responsibility of the couple in whatever way they choose to do it. If the woman wants to be on BC (and lots do - it's highly effective, pretty safe, and allows THEM to be in control), are you seriously claiming the man "deserves it" if he doesn't wear a condom? Why would he? She's on BC, and condoms suck.

The way you're talking about abortion is also kind of uninformed. I really don't think there's a moral issue with abortion, but using it as birth control is stupid. Strictly speaking, yes, it is birth control. But repeated abortions can cause damage, and they are really, really expensive. I have no problem with abortion, and it's relatively easy to get in my state. Doesn't mean I'm going to stop using contraception. I'd prefer not to piss off my reproductive organs or my wallet any more than they already are. That's ridiculous.

And again, saying the man "asked for it" if he doesn't use a condom is just as sexist and ridiculous as anti-choicers using that argument on women. Discussing birth control is the responsibility of both parties. One using it and not the other is a perfectly viable strategy. Just because a man and women prefer the intimacy of condomless sex while using BC does not mean the man "asked for it." Not any more than the woman "asked for it" if she relied on her partner's condom.

You should really learn more about these subjects before talking about them.

Did I always state that condoms have a failure rate. I did say I was not certain as to how much failure. What you stated is pretty high. I said fine. I am also saying that many women's methods of BC carry a risk. Why should a woman do that to herself. Never once did I say that condoms were perfect. Not once. What my entire issue here has been if Men do not wear condoms they have no say whatever on abortion because frankly if it prevents only one pregnancy out of a thousand it is doing something. If they don't care enough to use the protection they have why are you defending them? Why would you defend their right to have a say over a woman's choice if they don't care enough to do the best they can.

So the talking out your ass statement here is garbage because you obviously have a learning curve problem as well.
This is what I have been saying all along. If a man does not use the tools available to him to prevent pregnancy he does not deserve a say in any of it. How hard is that for you to understand.

 

[katiegrrl0]

She should be on the pill and she could have kept her legs closed..

Works both ways.. It takes two to make a baby..

If she has a right to decide to abort and skip out on the responsibilities of a child, then I see no reason why a man can't share in that right.. If he can be forced to pay child support for a child he does not want.. Then yes.. He should have a say..

Either both parents are equally responsible or she bares the burdon alone and there is no child support.. If you don't want him to have a say, then he has no responsibility..

Why would you expect women to use products that can be harmful to them to prevent birth? Is there a warning label on a condom box?
Besides the issue is really a moot point because abortion is legal and will stay that way and as you say men and women both have the burden of raising a child. That means support.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Did I always state that condoms have a failure rate. I did say I was not certain as to how much failure. What you stated is pretty high. I said fine. I am also saying that many women's methods of BC carry a risk. Why should a woman do that to herself. Never once did I say that condoms were perfect. Not once. What my entire issue here has been if Men do not wear condoms they have no say whatever on abortion because frankly if it prevents only one pregnancy out of a thousand it is doing something. If they don't care enough to use the protection they have why are you defending them? Why would you defend their right to have a say over a woman's choice if they don't care enough to do the best they can.

So the talking out your ass statement here is garbage because you obviously have a learning curve problem as well.
This is what I have been saying all along. If a man does not use the tools available to him to prevent pregnancy he does not deserve a say in any of it. How hard is that for you to understand.

Again, displaying to me you haven't done much research on this. What I said is that condoms have roughly a 75% effectivness rate with typical use. Typical use is very flawed, because we don't educate people properly. However, with PERFECT use, condoms are about 98% effective... if you spend a little more for higher quality brands.

Condoms are very effective. But they are not as effective as BC - which is in excess of 99.8% effective with perfect use.

A woman may go on BC because for most women BC is harmless, and for many women it is actually beneficial. It can have a lot of health benefits. When I said I was 1 in 1 million, I was serious. There are literally a handful of cases in the entire history of BC with side effects like mine. I am a freak of medical science. Apart from that, the main risks are to women who are 30+ and smokers. That's about it.

I don't defend a man having say over a women's choice. I defend a man having a say over how he reacts to her choice. And for you to blindly assert that if he doesn't use a condom it's his fault and BC is awful and risky when you have no idea what you're talking about is ridiculous.

Your argument is no different than "if a woman isn't on BC she shouldn't be allowed to abort since, after all, SHE wasn't using a contraceptive, even if he was using a condom." It's absurd.

 

[LizardofOz]

I don't think a man should directly have a say in it by default as it is the woman that will have to live with that guilt if she goes through with it. The guy can just be mad (or relieved) depending on what decision she makes. That being said, abortion being a fluff issue, I am 99% against it and believe the woman should decide. However, if it is life threatening and she has no other way to pay it the government should help in some way.

Also my experience with BC is my sperm don't give a **** about birthcontrol. Not only did my baby's mother have PCOS but she was on birth control, and we still had a daughter. Why? because I am all that is man.

 

[ecofarm]

If a male does not use a condom she certainly does have all the power. She can either 1 get and abortion 2 not get one. Once the male makes the decision not to use one he loses all power as the final decisions are hers. I did suggest in a post that I believe that in most stable relationships that there is discussion. You learn to read with understanding and we will not have the problems we have had. Tell me now what power you think a male has after not using a condom? You suggest that he has some I would like to know what that is?

One could go with her to get the hormone/birth-control insert and check that it is not disturbed. Personally, I go with condoms even though they suck. I don't like messing with hormones, but since she keeps asking perhaps we will. She doesn't want to get pregnant until she's done with school and has a job, but I like having control/power and you're right... aside from the insert (is there a way she could disable it?), condoms are the only power/control/personal responsibiliy a man has. Most gladly give it up, dumb bulls that they are. My gf and I have discussed this, and she does not think that I disbelieve her intentions; further, she understands that it is a matter of personal responsibility and accessing it (as opposed to merely talking about it).

Sorry for the grown-up interruption.

 

[Kal'Stang]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

Until such time as a man can carry a baby in a "womb" and put his body through everything that a woman goes through to produce a child, including but not limited to possible death, then man should have no say what so ever in the abortion.

This is THE main reason that I am pro-choice when it comes to abortion. It is not our body that is put on the line...it is the womans. As such we men have no right to tell a woman what to do. To say otherwise is to agree that it is ok if we allow rape. I say this because it is equivilent. Would anyone here agree to letting someone else tell you that you have to lie there and get screwed by a complete stranger in the butt for nine months? If not then why would you agree to telling a woman that she has to lie there and grow and force a baby out from between her legs?

 

[BDBoop]

I never said it isn't and all you are doing is changing the goal posts again... I was responding to your post about the guy being the only one who has to "take it" since this is obviously wrong. The woman also has to deal with changes and factors that are out of her control.

No goal posts have been changed.

It's not obviously wrong.

She doesn't have to deal. She just has to make a decision. He does not.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

Until such time as a man can carry a baby in a "womb" and put his body through everything that a woman goes through to produce a child, including but not limited to possible death, then man should have no say what so ever in the abortion.

This is THE main reason that I am pro-choice when it comes to abortion. It is not our body that is put on the line...it is the womans. As such we men have no right to tell a woman what to do. To say otherwise is to agree that it is ok if we allow rape. I say this because it is equivilent. Would anyone here agree to letting someone else tell you that you have to lie there and get screwed by a complete stranger in the butt for nine months? If not then why would you agree to telling a woman that she has to lie there and grow and force a baby out from between her legs?

For clarity, the last few pages has mostly pertained to whether men should pay mandatory child support if a woman decides to keep it against his will. I don't debate at she has that right. His will is irrelevant to what she does with her body. I only debate the man should have a choice of how he reacts to it.

 

[BDBoop]

She should be on the pill and she could have kept her legs closed..

Works both ways.. It takes two to make a baby.

Yeah. And? Not the subject. There are men who strenuously object to being left out of the decision-making loop. We are speaking to them, as indicated in the title.

 

[ecofarm]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

Until such time as a man can carry a baby in a "womb" and put his body through everything that a woman goes through to produce a child, including but not limited to possible death, then man should have no say what so ever in the abortion.

This is THE main reason that I am pro-choice when it comes to abortion. It is not our body that is put on the line...it is the womans. As such we men have no right to tell a woman what to do. To say otherwise is to agree that it is ok if we allow rape. I say this because it is equivilent. Would anyone here agree to letting someone else tell you that you have to lie there and get screwed by a complete stranger in the butt for nine months? If not then why would you agree to telling a woman that she has to lie there and grow and force a baby out from between her legs?

I'm sure that logic works just fine (for some people) until one believes person begins at conception, not x months.

So, you think a woman should be able to abort up until the moment before birth? Or at some point you, ALSO, decide that her rights are outweighed by the child's. Is telling a woman that she cannot abort at 8 months "having a stranger..."?

 

[BDBoop]

I'm sure that works just fine until one believes person begins at conception, not x months. So, you think a woman should be able to abort up until the moment before birth? Or at some point you, ALSO, decide that her rights are outweighed by the child's.

Please stay on topic. The subject has nothing to do with anything but whether a man has a say in whether or not a woman continues her pregnancy, or chooses to end it.

 

[ecofarm]

Please stay on topic. The subject has nothing to do with anything but whether a man has a say in whether or not a woman continues her pregnancy, or chooses to end it.

You like his (rape filled) post, but you object to me responding.

 

[BDBoop]

You like his (rape filled) post, but you object to me responding.

His what huh?