Should NATO create a no-fly zone over Ukraine?

[Uncle_Phil]

We (meaning the US and some other NATO nations) are doing quite a bit to help support Ukrainian defense efforts, but short of having our military personnel fight Russian forces inside Ukraine.

Everything after the word "but" is what concerns me. We're not doing enough.

 

[noonereal]

If you don't like cliche, see my other answer above. Different communication styles work with different people.

Sorry , your posts are nice dreams not responsible responses.

I wish we well.

 

[ttwtt78640]

I would publicly announce that a no-fly zone is going in to effect over Ukraine in 48 hours. That gives the Russians ample warning and time to get their assets out of the skies and make whatever preparations they need. I would make it clear that we do not intend to escalate further, but this is where we are drawing a clear line.

48 hours later, I would have air sorties taking off from NATO bases across Europe with orders to shoot down any hostile aircraft over the skies of Ukraine.

If Putin doesn't want to listen to the 48 hour warning and choses to confront us in the skies, then so be it. He is entirely to blame from that point, as he has been warned and given time.

Great plan - except that Russia has already stated that would be considered an act of war.

 

[vegas giants]

I would publicly announce that a no-fly zone is going in to effect over Ukraine in 48 hours. That gives the Russians ample warning and time to get their assets out of the skies and make whatever preparations they need. I would make it clear that we do not intend to escalate further, but this is where we are drawing a clear line.

48 hours later, I would have air sorties taking off from NATO bases across Europe with orders to shoot down any hostile aircraft over the skies of Ukraine.

If Putin doesn't want to listen to the 48 hour warning and choses to confront us in the skies, then so be it. He is entirely to blame from that point, as he has been warned and given time.

So you want full out war with russia

 

[Gatsby]

I would publicly announce that a no-fly zone is going in to effect over Ukraine in 48 hours. That gives the Russians ample warning and time to get their assets out of the skies and make whatever preparations they need.

Putin isn't going to just withdraw his aircraft from Ukraine because America randomly ordered them out. That's not how any of this works.

I would make it clear that we do not intend to escalate further, but this is where we are drawing a clear line.

And when Putin responds by, say, bombing anti-aircraft sites inside NATO countries or attacking the Turkish navy, with a similar promise that *he* does not intend to escalate further but this is where he is drawing the line? What then?

If Putin doesn't want to listen to the 48 hour warning and choses to confront us in the skies, then so be it. He is entirely to blame from that point, as he has been warned and given time.

And when hundreds of millions of people die in the world war you so desperately you want, and you are dying a slow death from radiation poisoning from the mushroom cloud that hit your city, you can take comfort in your last thoughts that you blamed the right person.

 

[BirdinHand]

Nuclear war would be horrific, I completely agree. Estimates I have seen put NATO losses in an all-out nuclear war with Russia at about 10 million people, with about a third of those being in the United States. A high price indeed.

On the other hand, we can't make decisions based on fear and trepidation. The full-scale war that would follow a nuclear exchange would see Russia occupied and it would cease to exist as a nation. They know they cannot defeat NATO in a war and would never risk it.

We have to stand up for what is right and good, and we have to respond to Ukraine's call for help now in their hour of need. It's the right thing to do, both pragmatically and morally.

We need to put a stop to the bombings of maternity wards and theaters with "children" written on the sidewalk. It's times like these when your character is tested, and what does it say about the character of NATO if we do nothing?

This isn’t about “character”.

This is about nuclear war.

 

[Uncle_Phil]

Great plan - except that Russia has already stated that would be considered an act of war.

Then that's on them. You can't cower every time Putin waves his fist or it will only embolden him. You have to draw a clear line, and if it ends in a game of chicken, don't be the one who veers off.

We need bold leadership, not fearful paralysis.

 

[noonereal]

Everything after the word "but" is what concerns me. We're not doing enough.

We are doing more than anyone would have predicted and all that is prudent.
Sorry, I know you mean well for the people of Ukraine but we all do, Trumpists excluded of course, but there are no miracles. There are just tough decisions which to weigh the entire world not just Ukraine.

 

[vegas giants]

Then that's on them. You can't cower every time Putin waves his fist or it will only embolden him. You have to draw a clear line, and if it ends in a game of chicken, don't be the one who veers off.

We need bold leadership, not fearful paralysis.

What time do you ship out?

 

[noonereal]

This isn’t about “character”.

This is about nuclear war.

Lol

Yes, it really is this simple. Well said.

 

[lurchadams]

In his speech to the US Congress, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky made an impassioned plea for a "no fly zone" to be created over Ukraine. I have posted his own words below, to allow you to judge on its own merit.

"Remember Pearl Harbor — terrible morning of December 7, 1941, when your sky was black from the planes attacking you. Just remember it. Remember September the 11th, a terrible day in 2001, when evil tried to turn your cities, independent territories in battlefields, when innocent people were attacked, attacked from air. Yes, just like nobody else expected it. You could not stop it. Our country experienced the same every day, right now, at this moment, every night for three weeks now.

Various Ukrainian cities, Odessa and Kovel, Chernihiv and Sumy, (inaudible), Mariupol and Dnipro — Russia has turned the Ukrainian sky into a source of death for thousands of people. Russian troops have already fired nearly 1,000 missiles at Ukraine, countless bombs. They use drones to kill us with precision. This is a terror that Europe has not seen for 80 years, and we are asking for a reply, for an answer to this terror from the whole world. Is this a lot to ask for, to create a no-fly zone — zone over Ukraine to save people? Is this too much to ask — humanitarian no-fly zone, something that Ukraine — that Russia would not be able to terrorize our free cities?"

So the question is simple, should NATO respond to Ukraine's time of need by giving them what they ask for?

I said, "yes" only because there aren't enough choices. The US should negotiate such a thing with all Western nations. and if they agree, then sure - no fly zone, defended by NATO. Yes, it would be like WW3, but it would be a short one. Putin has very few friends.

 

[Tigerace117]

In his speech to the US Congress, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky made an impassioned plea for a "no fly zone" to be created over Ukraine. I have posted his own words below, to allow you to judge on its own merit.

"Remember Pearl Harbor — terrible morning of December 7, 1941, when your sky was black from the planes attacking you. Just remember it. Remember September the 11th, a terrible day in 2001, when evil tried to turn your cities, independent territories in battlefields, when innocent people were attacked, attacked from air. Yes, just like nobody else expected it. You could not stop it. Our country experienced the same every day, right now, at this moment, every night for three weeks now.

Various Ukrainian cities, Odessa and Kovel, Chernihiv and Sumy, (inaudible), Mariupol and Dnipro — Russia has turned the Ukrainian sky into a source of death for thousands of people. Russian troops have already fired nearly 1,000 missiles at Ukraine, countless bombs. They use drones to kill us with precision. This is a terror that Europe has not seen for 80 years, and we are asking for a reply, for an answer to this terror from the whole world. Is this a lot to ask for, to create a no-fly zone — zone over Ukraine to save people? Is this too much to ask — humanitarian no-fly zone, something that Ukraine — that Russia would not be able to terrorize our free cities?"

So the question is simple, should NATO respond to Ukraine's time of need by giving them what they ask for?

Nope, because that would most likely cause World War Three, and it flat out is not worth the risk of global thermonuclear war.

 

[Uncle_Phil]

This isn’t about “character”.

This is about nuclear war.

Character is about doing difficult things at difficult moments. Character isn't defined when things are convenient or easy.

This is the hand we were dealt. It is what it is. Ukraine needs our help now. We either stand up and answer the call, or we cower away. Either choice says a lot about who we are.

 

[Tigerace117]

I said, "yes" only because there aren't enough choices. The US should negotiate such a thing with all Western nations. and if they agree, then sure - no fly zone, defended by NATO. Yes, it would be like WW3, but it would be a short one. Putin has very few friends.

The US thinks every war it gets into is going to be oh so short. You’d think we’d have learned better by now.

 

[lurchadams]

Nuclear war would be horrific, I completely agree. Estimates I have seen put NATO losses in an all-out nuclear war with Russia at about 10 million people, with about a third of those being in the United States. A high price indeed.

On the other hand, we can't make decisions based on fear and trepidation. The full-scale war that would follow a nuclear exchange would see Russia occupied and it would cease to exist as a nation. They know they cannot defeat NATO in a war and would never risk it.

We have to stand up for what is right and good, and we have to respond to Ukraine's call for help now in their hour of need. It's the right thing to do, both pragmatically and morally.

We need to put a stop to the bombings of maternity wards and theaters with "children" written on the sidewalk. It's times like these when your character is tested, and what does it say about the character of NATO if we do nothing?

This, I agree with!

 

[vegas giants]

Character is about doing difficult things at difficult moments. Character isn't defined when things are convenient or easy.

This is the hand we were dealt. It is what it is. Ukraine needs our help now. We either stand up and answer the call, or we cower away. Either choice says a lot about who we are.

We were dealt no hand


We're not even in the card game

 

[Josie]

Character is about doing difficult things at difficult moments. Character isn't defined when things are convenient or easy.

This is the hand we were dealt. It is what it is. Ukraine needs our help now. We either stand up and answer the call, or we cower away. Either choice says a lot about who we are.

You realize the choice that you're saying we should make would probably mean millions more people would die, right?

 

[BirdinHand]

Then that's on them. You can't cower every time Putin waves his fist or it will only embolden him. You have to draw a clear line, and if it ends in a game of chicken, don't be the one who veers off.

We need bold leadership, not fearful paralysis.

Who is “cowering”?

I’m sorry but playing chicken with a crazy man that has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world is bound to get MILLIONS of innocent civilians killed.

That’s not “bold leadership”. It’s plain stupidity.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Everything after the word "but" is what concerns me. We're not doing enough.

Meaning declaring war against Russia and actively engaging their (nuclear capable) military forces.

 

[lurchadams]

The US thinks every war it gets into is going to be oh so short. You’d think we’d have learned better by now.

No, my friend. This is different than Iraq. This is right in Europe's backyard and people in Switzerland, Austria, France, Germany, Spain, etc.. have no desire to speak Russian. This time, Europe needs us more than we need them.

 

[vegas giants]

No, my friend. This is different that Iraq. This is right in Europe's backyard and people in Switzerland, Austria, France, Germany, Spain, etc.. have no desire to speak Russian. This time, Europe needs us more than we need them.

Then let europe go

I hear they have jets too

 

[Tigerace117]

No, my friend. This is different that Iraq. This is right in Europe's backyard and people in Switzerland, Austria, France, Germany, Spain, etc.. have no desire to speak Russian. This time, Europe needs us more than we need them.

The Russians have no interest in conquering Switzerland or Spain or France, and none of those countries is going to commit their militaries to a long, drawn out bloodbath of a campaign.....because that’s what the suggestion would entail.

The last time Spaniards, Frenchmen, Austrians and Germans marched into Russia it ended very badly for them.

 

[noonereal]

Then that's on them. You can't cower every time Putin waves his fist or it will only embolden him. You have to draw a clear line, and if it ends in a game of chicken, don't be the one who veers off.

We need bold leadership, not fearful paralysis.

And we haven't cowered. In fact, we have shocked him with our actipns and resolve.
The line was always on the map, it still is.
Poland is in Nato, Ukraine is not.
That is the line, nothing has changed.

The problems with your posts is that you want WW3 to reach western Europe and the where as reasoned people do not.

 

[lurchadams]

Who is “cowering”?

I’m sorry but playing chicken with a crazy man that has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world is bound to get MILLIONS of innocent civilians killed.

That’s not “bold leadership”. It’s plain stupidity.

So, once you think Putin gets Ukraine he's going to stop? You sound like former Prime Minister Chamberlain.

 

[vegas giants]

So, once you think Putin gets Ukraine he's going to stop? You sound like former Prime Minister Chamberlain.

I think we should only live up to our treaties