Should men have a right to damage fetus with substances and other ways?

[Dr. Chuckles]

DC...as I just made comment to X...it's common knowledge that a man contributes 23 chromosomes...and so do a woman...during conception. It wouldn't be hard to determine if there was mutated or damaged DNA that was contributed by the man...which resulted in the defect of a fetus.

So you're saying the science isn't currently inconclusive?

If they are both tested....and the woman is clean...and the guy isn't...??? Shouldn't the guy be further tested to confirm it was his damaged DNA...likely caused by addition?

Why don't you show us something besides internet woo to support what you are claiming here?

 

[Henrin]

DC...as I just made comment to X...it's common knowledge that a man contributes 23 chromosomes...and so do a woman...during conception. It wouldn't be hard to determine if there was mutated or damaged DNA that was contributed by the man...which resulted in the defect of a fetus.

If they are both tested....and the woman is clean...and the guy isn't...??? Shouldn't the guy be further tested to confirm it was his damaged DNA...likely caused by addition?

So you're just going to guess his actions lead to problems? Sorry, but I can't find someone guilty with just guess work.

 

[Removable Mind]

So you're just going to guess his actions lead to problems? Sorry, but I can't find someone guilty with just guess work.

Henrin...you were doing so good. You clearly saw where i said that each person contributes 23 chromosomes...and it wouldn't be difficult to test to find out which cause a fetus to be defective. If it's a known that the guy...was an addict then it could be determined if his sperm was damaged.

 

[X Factor]

You can twist what I'm saying all you want X...feel free to. I've not advocated for that.

How did I twist what you're saying? Did you NOT say "any knowing reason"? I'm not having to twist anything. It's your orginal premise that's faulty and ridiculous on it's face.

Maybe all men need to be required to be regularly tested to make sure that they haven't engage in any behaviors that would damage or mutate their sperm. You know...like various states want to force women to have ultrasounds...

:Facepalm:

Which states require all women to have regular ultrasounds regardless of whether or not they're actually pregnant?

 

[Henrin]

Henrin...you were doing so good. You clearly saw where i said that each person contributes 23 chromosomes...and it wouldn't be difficult to test to find out which cause a fetus to be defective. If it's a known that the guy...was an addict then it could be determined if his sperm was damaged.

That doesn't mean his actions are the cause for the problem. It might be something else entirely that lead to the mutilation in the sperm. How can you actually be sure?

 

[Removable Mind]

So you're saying the science isn't currently inconclusive?



Why don't you show us something besides internet woo to support what you are claiming here?

No need to DC...but from the exchanges that I have with all of the men...its clear that men don't want to be party to the same scrutiny that is placed on women regarding co-conceptions.

That's been my point in the whole exchange.

If men think that they have to stand accountable for a defective fetus...then all hell breaks loose, but for a woman...she's born guilty.

 

[Removable Mind]

That doesn't mean his actions are the cause for the problem. It might be something else entirely that lead to the mutilation in the sperm. How can you actually be sure?

Forget it Henrin...no biggie..thanks..

 

[Henrin]

Forget it Henrin...no biggie..thanks..

Why are you running away? All you showed was that it was possible, but you haven't been able to tie the mutation to the action to a point where you can be sure that is the cause. If you can't prove your case than I have no reason to side with you.

 

[Removable Mind]

How did I twist what you're saying? Did you NOT say "any knowing reason"? I'm not having to twist anything. It's your orginal premise that's faulty and ridiculous on it's face.

:Facepalm:

Which states require all women to have regular ultrasounds regardless of whether or not they're actually pregnant?

X...you know as well as I do...that that's a big legislative feature in new anti-abortion laws. Of course when they are pregnant.

But men other the hand...roam free...with potential sperm mutations, which ultimately cause a fetus to be defective or even die...which women get the usual blame for...especially if she wants an abortion.

Men contribute half of the genetic material which creates a fetus. They need to be subjected to at least the same scrutiny that women have to regarding conception.

But men don't like that...it's never their fault or problem...and they don't ever want to be responsible or accountable for a defective or dead fetus.

So why shouldn't government make men get tested in order to prevent such atrocities?

 

[X Factor]

No need to DC...but from the exchanges that I have with all of the men...its clear that men don't want to be party to the same scrutiny that is placed on women regarding co-conceptions.

That's been my point in the whole exchange.

If men think that they have to stand accountable for a defective fetus...then all hell breaks loose, but for a woman...she's born guilty.

Show me where any pro-lifer has ever advocated for testing a woman's DNA for the purpose of jailing her if it's not "clean". That's standard of scrutiny you're advocating here.

 

[Removable Mind]

Why are you running away? All you showed was that it was possible, but you haven't been able to tie the mutation to the action to a point where you can be sure that is the cause. If you can't prove your case than I have no reason to side with you.

I'm not asking you to side with me. I'm saying that why is everybody claiming that genetic material from both contributors can't be tested to at least find probable cause?

Men need to stand responsible and accountable for defective or dead fetuses...just like women.

 

[X Factor]

X...you know as well as I do...that that's a big legislative feature in new anti-abortion laws. Of course when they are pregnant.

But men other the hand...roam free...with potential sperm mutations, which ultimately cause a fetus to be defective or even die...which women get the usual blame for...especially if she wants an abortion.

Men contribute half of the genetic material which creates a fetus. They need to be subjected to at least the same scrutiny that women have to regarding conception.

But men don't like that...it's never their fault or problem...and they don't ever want to be responsible or accountable for a defective or dead fetus.

So why shouldn't government make men get tested in order to prevent such atrocities?

Unless you're also advocating that all women also be tested for any "unclean" DNA that could result in a disabled child, you are not advocating for the the same scrutiny at all.

 

[Removable Mind]

Show me where any pro-lifer has ever advocated for testing a woman's DNA for the purpose of jailing her if it's not "clean". That's standard of scrutiny you're advocating here.

The reality is...no matter what the scientific process that could be used to find probable cause of a defective fetus...men will never want to undergo any form of verifiable tests which makes them guilty of causing birth defects or death to a fetus.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Many substances damage male sperm DNA that can lead to birth defects. The list includes many drugs, steroids, cancer drugs, prescription drugs, illegal drugs, and caffeine. X-rays damage male sperm DNA. So can handling pesticides. Should laws be passed to prohibit men from and punish men for using substances or undertaking actions that may damage a fetus if the man is sexually active and has not had a vasectomy?

This would be like punishing a woman for damaging her eggs, which would make no sense.

If that man has a living human being currently growing inside him, then no, he shouldn't be able to do whatever he wants with it.

 

[Removable Mind]

Unless you're also advocating that all women also be tested for any "unclean" DNA that could result in a disabled child, you are not advocating for the the same scrutiny at all.

Now you're getting funny because if you read back through most of my post...I've included women in the tests...because it would require testing both...to see which set of chromosomes are damages...then look for probable cause. If it's the man's sperm...and he's an addict..then he goes down.

 

[Henrin]

I'm not asking you to side with me. I'm saying that why is everybody claiming that genetic material from both contributors can't be tested to at least find probable cause?

Men need to stand responsible and accountable for defective or dead fetuses...just like women.

I'm only interested in you being able to prove your case. If you can't do it there is no reason for me to consider your argument or any further laws.

 

[Removable Mind]

I'm only interested in you being able to prove your case. If you can't do it there is no reason for me to consider your argument or any further laws.

Groovy...good night Henrin...It's getting late in Texas...and I gotta put the cows to bed.

 

[X Factor]

The reality is...no matter what the scientific process that could be used to find probable cause of a defective fetus...men will never want to undergo any form of verifiable tests which makes them guilty of causing birth defects or death to a fetus.

I see what you mean. I'm near sighted and so is my dad (and mom, too, actually). They should both be tested and the one found guilty should jailed for passing that defect along to me. :roll:

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Are you really calling his accusation a strawman? You haven't seen the numerous people around here that refer to fetuses as parasites, and that believe the woman can do whatever she wants with the fetus?

I can't even enter the abortion section without bumping into at least 3 people that preach that.

Maybe you should try to make some arguments instead of posting cute pictures.

No need to DC...but from the exchanges that I have with all of the men...its clear that men don't want to be party to the same scrutiny that is placed on women regarding co-conceptions.

That's been my point in the whole exchange.

If men think that they have to stand accountable for a defective fetus...then all hell breaks loose, but for a woman...she's born guilty.

You're comparing genetic issues with intentional actions during the pregnancy. They're not even in the same ballpark.

 

[Removable Mind]

I see what you mean. I'm near sighted and so is my dad (and mom, too, actually). They should both be tested and the one found guilty should jailed for passing that defect along to me. :roll:

EXACTLY....

X...like I told Henrin...it's getting late here in Texas...gotta put the cows to bed. It's been fun. Catch ya on the flip side.

 

[Moot]

Indeed. For the record if a dad assaults or kills his kid, he should get the book thrown at them too. That would be a direct comparison to be making... of course, why make a thread that has no purpose beyond misrepresenting the argument in another thread? Can't you misrepresent other people's argument in the original thread?

On the other hand, if you do things that might maybe damage your sperm cells or egg cells before you have ever conceived a kid, however, um... no, that's not the same thing, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Which means it's a pretty typical offering around this subforum as threads go, sadly.

Why do you assume all the damage is done before conception when it is highly likely men are doing things that damage their sperm during conception? If 40% of birth defects are unexplained and all known factors are ruled out except the quality of the sperm then it stands to reason that the fathers sperm may have something to do with it. Now, the question has been raised on another thread as to whether women should go to prison for doing things that damage the fetus, so why not the father if it is in fact his damaged sperm that caused the birth defect or fetal death inside the womb?

 

[Henrin]

Why do you assume all the damage is done before conception when it is highly likely men are doing things that damage their sperm during conception? If 40% of birth defects are unexplained and all known factors are ruled out except the quality of the sperm then it stands to reason that the fathers sperm may have something to do with it. Now, the question has been raised on another thread as to whether women should go to prison for doing things that damage the fetus, so why not the father if it is in fact his damaged sperm that caused the birth defect or fetal death inside the womb?

As I said to Removable, it's one thing to say his sperm is damaged and another to prove he caused it by his actions.

 

[JayDubya]

So am I correct that you answer is yes?

Mark me down, as always for your polls and quizzes, as "Joko thread, lolololololololololol."

It works well every time.

 

[Dr. Chuckles]

No need to DC...but from the exchanges that I have with all of the men...its clear that men don't want to be party to the same scrutiny that is placed on women regarding co-conceptions.

Of course it matters if your claims have any validity to them.

That's been my point in the whole exchange.

As others keep pointing out it's a faulty comparison, because the discussion doesn't merely concern a woman behaving in a manner that will affect her eggs, but her embryo.


See, if you're going to draw an analogy to something, those things need to be similar

If men think that they have to stand accountable for a defective fetus...then all hell breaks loose, but for a woman...she's born guilty.

But your entire premise makes no sense and is seemingly devoid of scientific backing.

 

[Moot]

I see what you mean. I'm near sighted and so is my dad (and mom, too, actually). They should both be tested and the one found guilty should jailed for passing that defect along to me. :roll:

Do you think they did it on purpose? No? Then your point is irrelevant and doesn't pertain to the topic.