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Should immigrants have a path to citizenship?

Should law abiding immigrants be given citizenship?


  • Total voters
    110
Funny thing, migrant farm workers are already a thing allowed by law. People seeking to work in the USA can apply for work visas if they can provide proof of valid seasonal employment. This applies to several forms of employment, like farming, meat processing, and other labor-intensive jobs that most American citizens can do but most choose not to do. They are legal migrant workers who spend a designated period allowed for employment, then a break to return home for a period, and then the ability to return to the same employment.

This is NOT what we are left to deal with after the Biden Administration's literal open-border policy flooded the nation with estimates from a low of 10 million up to about 20 million migrants. The vast majority of these migrants were unvetted. That means large numbers of criminals, terrorists, anti-American religious fundamentalists, spies, and other unsavory characters entered and have been terrorizing the very "sanctuary" cities and States whose governments wanted them to chose residence.

Why? Several reasons. Reason 1: The Census. Blue States have been hemorrhaging residents in favor of Red States for several reasons, not the least of which is the higher State and local taxes needed to pay for all the "goodies" and "services" the Democrats always promise in order to buy votes. But the Census counts bodies, not citizens, and so all the "Sanctuary State" enticements to increase population numbers to increase representation in the Federal Government. Reason 2: Get migrants to come to the Blue States to replace lost American voters and protect them while Democrats modify voter laws allowing them to vote in State and Local elections. Reason 3: To eventually give these migrant invaders citizenship to permanently replace lost American voters in National elections.

That's the plan, a true "Great Replacement" effort, to help Democrats get and maintain permanent political power in both their Blue States and eventually, national elections. We should not let this happen.
Well stated!

Bleeding blue states put out the magnet, promising illegal migrants, (those who have not had legal immigration checks by border patrol aka border jumpers), with freebies like health care. The initiatives vary by state, but here's a few of them, (healthcare, drivers licenses, education, housing, and other protections). Sanctuary city policy was put in place to keep these people there for census counts for the Democratic Party. To keep them there, they put out the welcome wagon, and have to keep giving them the perks. Meanwhile they keep depressing the wages of American low skilled works and those just entering the job market in some labor markets.
 
Dunno tbh I remember reading more than once, in reputable publications, that illegals are a net benefit to the economy.
The net benefit in who's eyes?

Cheap labor is a net benefit for the businesses hiring them. It takes business away from their competition.

Do you think this is a societal benefit? Keep wages low, then complain about wages not being high enough?

It is damaging to the supply and demand wages.
 
This is not what’s happening. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Stop listening to Fox News and AM radio. You are not getting the truth. They are trying to deport as many people as possible.
Maybe they are going after as many as they can find. I don't have a problem with it.

Your attack on me is unwarranted and shows you have not clue about me, so you are probably clueless of the facts regarding the deportation as well. I do not listen to Fox news or the AM Radio. When I am in the car, I listen to KGON or KWJJ. At home, I stream movies or put a blueray in the computer and have it on my screen when i am doing something like this.


There are now quotas they have to meet so they’ve resorted to rounding up random people, for example, groups of day laborers at Home Depot, and detaining people who are easy to detain and already complying with the rules, such as immigrants attending their court hearings.
Why is this a problem? I'm sure many people like the fact employers now have to raise their base wages.
 
Your attack on me is unwarranted

Your skin is paper-thin, dude. Relax. You take everything so personally. You have 78,000 posts and you still cannot tolerate one bit of criticism.
 
Maybe they are going after as many as they can find. I don't have a problem with it.

Okay, so, I guess you agree with me? What else is there to talk about other than how much you love deporting people?
 
Why is this a problem? I'm sure many people like the fact employers now have to raise their base wages.

If your position is that you're okay with the Trump administration mass-deporting as many people as possible without respect to their criminal record then that's your position.

It's also not what we were talking about.

I can think of several reasons why it would be a problem, and if you want to talk about that, that's fine too.
 
This is a false picture of what's happening.

While it's true that "lefties" do care about immigrants because they view the immigrants as human beings, and while it's true that Trump supporters view them as animals, that's not the whole truth.

Businesses hire them because they are good workers and don't complain.
Why do you think the anti-left people think of them as parasites? They are no more of a parasite than our citizen poor who use social benefits the government offered. The people you are calling parasites by projection just want a better life, but we have too many already. We are going into huge debt, and the people you are projecting as parasites add top the costs that increase that debt.

My personal experience is I never assume someone is illegal based on their skin color or accent. I treat them all with the same respect based on their character and how they treat others.
 
If your position is that you're okay with the Trump administration mass-deporting as many people as possible without respect to their criminal record then that's your position.

It's also not what we were talking about.
Why does it matter?
 
Okay, so, I guess you agree with me? What else is there to talk about other than how much you love deporting people?
Those not hiding from the law are far easier to find. No matter how they prioritize those to deport, those who are not criminals after crossing the border are so much easier to find. they are everywhere, where the criminals sought after are more difficult to find.

Statistics will have it that these so-called non criminals will be found.
 
Your skin is paper-thin, dude. Relax. You take everything so personally. You have 78,000 posts and you still cannot tolerate one bit of criticism.
Your comment came off as an insult. Instead of insulting him again, just do the right thing and apologize for your flaming remark.... "Stop listening to Fox News and AM radio".
 
I never said it does. We already have too many unskilled laborers and it keeps the wages low having an excess.

Precisely why American unskilled, low skilled laborers who have to compete with illegal migrants are now a part of Trump's base.
 
Funny thing, migrant farm workers are already a thing allowed by law. People seeking to work in the USA can apply for work visas if they can provide proof of valid seasonal employment. This applies to several forms of employment, like farming, meat processing, and other labor-intensive jobs that most American citizens can do but most choose not to do. They are legal migrant workers who spend a designated period allowed for employment, then a break to return home for a period, and then the ability to return to the same employment.

The bottom line is that the caps aren't high enough to meet the demand of the businesses that require the workers. That's why migrants continue to improperly enter the country, and that's why American businesses continue to hire them.

This is NOT what we are left to deal with after the Biden Administration's literal open-border policy flooded the nation with estimates from a low of 10 million up to about 20 million migrants.

This is a ridiculously high number that is not supported by any credible evidence. In fact estimates are that Biden turned away many millions of migrants. I ask you to provide evidence to back up your assertion. The evidence I've found indicates numbers far lower:


The vast majority of these migrants were unvetted. That means large numbers of criminals, terrorists, anti-American religious fundamentalists, spies, and other

How do you know that "large numbers" of criminals entered if they weren't vetted? This is an assumption you're making.

unsavory characters entered and have been terrorizing the very "sanctuary" cities and States whose governments wanted them to chose residence.

What are you talking about? Why are you saying "Sanctuary" cities are being terrorized? What do you mean exactly?

Why? Several reasons. Reason 1: The Census. Blue States have been hemorrhaging residents in favor of Red States for several reasons, not the least of which is the higher State and local taxes needed to pay for all the "goodies" and "services" the Democrats always promise in order to buy votes. But the Census counts bodies, not citizens, and so all the "Sanctuary State" enticements to increase population numbers to increase representation in the Federal Government.

There is zero evidence that Democrats are intentionally allowing illegal immigration to boost representative in the House. Also, the census counts total population everywhere, not just in blue states, so red states like Texas also gain representation from immigrant populations.

Reason 2: Get migrants to come to the Blue States to replace lost American voters and protect them while Democrats modify voter laws allowing them to vote in State and Local elections.

No federal or state law allow noncitizens to vote in national elections, and there are only a handful of cities and municipalities that allow non-citizens to vote in local elections. This is simply not an issue.

Reason 3: To eventually give these migrant invaders citizenship to permanently replace lost American voters in National elections.

#1: If a migrant comes here to work we should not call them an "invader." A better term would be worker or helper. Those are the terms we give to people who exchange their labor for money. I find this kind of talk discouraging because it leads to situations where the Trump administration thinks it's okay to not respect their due process rights, or to send them to a foreign prison for the rest of their lives.

#2: Currently, it takes many years for legal immigrants to become citizens. The notion that there is any realistic hope of allowing the approximately 10 million illegal immigrants currently in America to become naturalized citizens seems more than a little far-fetched.

#3: There is no guarantee these freshly-minted citizens would vote for Democrats, and the 2024 election is a good example of that.
 
That's the plan, a true "Great Replacement" effort, to help Democrats get and maintain permanent political power in both their Blue States and eventually, national elections. We should not let this happen.

You have all these fears, but you don't realize that the vast majority of the American public does not support the approach Stephen Miller is taking. The harsher Trump behaves towards the migrants, the weaker his support becomes.

You think of these migrants as "invaders" but most people don't have this view of the migrants.
 
The net benefit in who's eyes?

Cheap labor is a net benefit for the businesses hiring them. It takes business away from their competition.

Do you think this is a societal benefit? Keep wages low, then complain about wages not being high enough?

It is damaging to the supply and demand wages.
GAO iirc.

I think illegals take jobs that Americans don't want especially when we are at fill employment which we've been at since 2021.
 
Precisely why American unskilled, low skilled laborers who have to compete with illegal migrants are now a part of Trump's base.
And the democrats love the low wages and subsidies thinking they have their voting slaves.
 
Yep the lack of interior immigration law enforcement has been a problem, thus congress should enact an eVerify mandate, coupled with changes to the FIT code, allowing the IRS to act as the primary enforcement mechanism. Once the (W-2 and 1099) employment ‘magnet’ is removed then many (if not most) illegal aliens would choose to self-deport.

I appreciate your thoughtful responses. You seem far more level-headed than some of the Trump supporters who accuse the migrants of being "invaders."

However, I am a little taken aback that a libertarian would support such a solution. This is another big government type of approach, isn't it?

Also, what's to stop employers from just paying workers with cash? The government doesn't have enough personnel to track every business in the U.S.

If businesses need these workers, it seems to me it would be better to just raise the visa caps to something like 10 million or so. That should be enough. This would also incentivize workers to enter through the proper official places of entry.
 
Your comment came off as an insult. Instead of insulting him again, just do the right thing and apologize for your flaming remark.... "Stop listening to Fox News and AM radio".
No matter how many times I tell these people I do not listen to Fox or any of the pundits, they simply cannot believe I have my own mind with my own decisions based on research and experience.

They must think I am as stupid as they are.
 
Why do you think the anti-left people think of them as parasites?

Do I really have to argue with you about this? Do you really reject the idea that a significant fraction of Trump's supporters have a very negative view of illegal immigrants? For example, Captain Adverse just called them "invaders."

They are no more of a parasite than our citizen poor who use social benefits the government offered. The people you are calling parasites by projection just want a better life, but we have too many already. We are going into huge debt, and the people you are projecting as parasites add top the costs that increase that debt.

The bottom line is I view nearly all immigrants as a net-positive, and I have seen no evidence that immigrants, legal or not, have a negative impact on our debt in any way.

And let's assume they do burden us in some way. There's nothing stopping us from creating a system where immigrants pay their fair share.

My personal experience is I never assume someone is illegal based on their skin color or accent. I treat them all with the same respect based on their character and how they treat others.

Okay. Are you aware that some of your political allies do not view things in the same way?
 
W_Heisenberg...

Would you like to know my listening past? I used to listen to Rush Limbaugh in his early years before he became a pompous ass. We had a local talk show host, Lars Larson that I liked until he went national and became a pompous ass as well. My favorites to listen to were Larry Elder and Neil Boortz. We are speaking of over 20 years ago now.

When cable was dominant and Fox News was new, I watched it from time to time. However, probably 20 years ago I cut cable TV and went streaming and buy my own disks. I easily have over 1,300 titles on DVD, Bluray, and 4K as I like something tangible and not controlled by corporations as to what I watch.

I don't even have access to Fox news that I know of. Probably on my 4K TV apps, but i never added them. I have Netflix, Disney Plus, and Amazon Prime. Thinking of cutting Amazon as it is a waste of money. As much as i pay, they still have paid content and commercials.
 
Why does it matter?

You tried to claim that the Trump administration was focusing on criminals.

Now you want to change the topic.

If you want to talk about this different issue, we can do that.

You ask: Why does it matter that we are just mass-deporting as many illegal immigrants as possible without respect to their criminal record?

Well, don't you think it's a good idea we first focus on actual criminals who are not contributing to our society instead of the people helping us with their labor?

We know we have about 10 million illegal immigrants in the U.S., if we mass-deported everyone at the same time, it would cause huge economic damage. Trump knows this, that's why he stated publicly his view that deportation efforts should be refocused.
 
You have all these fears, but you don't realize that the vast majority of the American public does not support the approach Stephen Miller is taking. The harsher Trump behaves towards the migrants, the weaker his support becomes.

You think of these migrants as "invaders" but most people don't have this view of the migrants.

I disagree with your assertions I've bolded. I see those as false beliefs on your part. Literally every UN-biased poll shows both major support for Trump's policies from legal immigrants, and by most Americans. He is doing what those who voted for him want, need, and expect him to do.

Sadly, I lost interest in anything you've had to say about this or any other issues quite a while back, hence this notice that I have no interest in responding to you now or in future.

Enjoy. :coffee:
 
Some may be crossing in hopes of a better life, however the suggestion that most are crossing illegally to escape persecution in their own country is largely a libril myth. I am sure that you have seen coverage of the protests in for instance Los Angeles and NYC, where they are flashing the flags of the country they allegedly fled from rather than the American flag. Many are coming for free healthcare, refillable debit cards and free hotel rooms.
WOW! Should be easy for you then to show some concrete examples of people who entered illegally and received all those benefits. Come on now. Don't be shy. Show us what you got.
However, it is still a criminal act.

They absolutely are criminals, many of them with criminal convictions in their own countries, many with convictions in this country. The point is that if we cannot vet individuals who come into this country, we are far less safe, and lose our sovereignty.

It's still a criminal act. And no matter how you attempt to spin it, it is not okay. The results of the 2024 election should have taught you that.
 
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