Should immigrants have a path to citizenship?

[ttwtt78640]

My point has always been that while these people break the law by crossing the border that does not make them dangerous nor is it evidence that they will act illegally in other ways.

Once detained and/or deported that’s much better assured.

As to enforcement whether it's ridiculous or not LEOs ignore far more law breakers than they arrest. That's just the nature of the beast when you don't have infinite money and manpower and have criminalized so much behavior that lots of people violate lots of laws and don't even know it.

When the stated goal is “mass deportation”, it’s less likely for that to happen.

 

[Nickyjo]

if it was "should people who broke our laws and came here illegally be granted a path to citizenship after ignoring our law"

what would you say ?

I would say “it depends.” By that I mean if they qualify for asylum, which can open a path to citizenship after several years.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Yes, I'm sure that is what the lying media and bloggers you have set on a pedestal have told you.

Do you honestly think they would turn a blind eye to all other illegals?

When they said they are actively seeking the dangerous ones, they never said they would only deport the dangerous ones.

This is not what’s happening. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Stop listening to Fox News and AM radio. You are not getting the truth. They are trying to deport as many people as possible. There are now quotas they have to meet so they’ve resorted to rounding up random people, for example, groups of day laborers at Home Depot, and detaining people who are easy to detain and already complying with the rules, such as immigrants attending their court hearings.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

We need to blame the bleeding heart lefties as well, who enable them.

This is a false picture of what's happening.

While it's true that "lefties" do care about immigrants because they view the immigrants as human beings, and while it's true that Trump supporters view them as animals, that's not the whole truth.

Businesses hire them because they are good workers and don't complain.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

We already have generational poor people and these illegal entries are composed almost entirely of more low skilled people who will in general, have generational low skilled progeny.

So what? So what if they're poor? Being poor doesn't make one a bad person.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

If they illegally cross into the US, they are not law abiding.

If they improperly enter our country they've committed a misdemeanor.

In the grand scheme of things it's not that bad of a crime, as compared to a felony, you know, like the one Trump was convicted of.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Yes, and so do I. All they have left is to publicly embarrass themselves, screaming at Trump, calling him names because they are literally fueled by extreme entitlement. They are perpetually pissed off at the winner of a democratic election process whereas they should be deeply concerned by their own loss. They haven't realized yet that those they were championing rendered themselves powerless in 2024. They did it to themselves, put themselves behind the eight ball. It's up to them to get a new strategy, but for now they are digging in with the same old silly shit like "no Kings".

You're just sad no one showed up to Trump's stupid parade and the No Kings protest was a huge success.

 

[MAGAnificent]

If they improperly enter our country they've committed a misdemeanor.

In the grand scheme of things it's not that bad of a crime, as compared to a felony, you know, like the one Trump was convicted of.

TDS.

 

[stealthycat]

Perhaps you're in need of further updating.... the non-impartial wheels of legal immigration move slowly. Reality ruins your day once again by dictating "how it works".

so if something isn't fast enough for you, break the law

that's how you want to do things?

Your strawman notwithstanding....you seem to be refusing to make a moral distinction between seeking a better life for oneself/family vs. general disordered lawlessness.
The former is a net gain for society; the latter....a net loss.
The fact that you must conflate the two reveals volumes about who you are morally and your level of hypocrisy....as you've yet to tell me exactly why you wouldn't seek a better life for you and yours if the shoe was on the other foot.

not really https://debatepolitics.com/threads/more-illegals-hurting-american-citizens.534679/

 

[MamboDervish]

TDS.

1,314 more days of your self imposed sentence.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Since many crimes aren’t felonies, should they be ignored by LEOs?

If somebody improperly enters our country to do work for us we should treat them differently than someone who enters our country to harm us.

All economic transactions are mutually beneficial. They do work. We pay them. Everyone benefits.

Furthermore, the illegal immigrants from Central and South America are generally good people who work hard and don't bother anyone.

With respect to how we treat them, whether we deport them or not, we should treat them like human beings, not animals. We should treat them with dignity and respect.

Yes, they've committed a crime, but it's a minor crime of little consequence.

I do not understand the "foam-at-the-mouth" hostility that some Trump supporters demonstrate when they talk about this issue. I think a big part of the hostility has nothing to do with violations of the law, but instead involves ethnic bias, racism, bigotry, etc.

I remember that many Trump supporters who contribute to this forum thought it wasn't a big deal to deport immigrants to a maximum security prison in El Salvador despite the fact that the majority of them had no criminal history. They either didn't care or thought they "deserved" it. For me, I see this as an unconstitutional act on part of the Trump administration as well as a great moral crime.

This way of thinking about immigrants extends to all other aspects of Trump's immigration policies, which Trump supporters tend to support. Remember in the first administration when they separated families? Many Trump supporters loved it. Why? I suspect that many Trump supporters do not view illegal immigrants as actual human beings.

 

[Nickyjo]

That's more than enough time for a bona fide refugee to make a claim and start the process.

I don’t believe that’s the law. The refugee act of 1980 says anyone can apply for asylum “irrespective of status.” A person here legally or not for over a year might decide and need to apply for asylum due to changes in their home country that would place them in danger if returned. Many who came across our southern border didn’t even know what asylum was. The laws and decisions have wisely accounted for the disorganized nature of refugee flight.

 

[MAGAnificent]

1,314 more days of your self imposed sentence.

Trump is hurting your ego, huh?

 

[stealthycat]

Perhaps you're in need of further updating.... the non-impartial wheels of legal immigration move slowly. Reality ruins your day once again by dictating "how it works".

Your strawman notwithstanding....you seem to be refusing to make a moral distinction between seeking a better life for oneself/family vs. general disordered lawlessness.
The former is a net gain for society; the latter....a net loss.
The fact that you must conflate the two reveals volumes about who you are morally and your level of hypocrisy....as you've yet to tell me exactly why you wouldn't seek a better life for you and yours if the shoe was on the other foot.

then you support 100 million being human trafficked to the USA because their lived will be better - you'd support that, unvetted 100 million people invasion ? 50 million ? 20 million and you'd say how pouring that many poverty level, unskilled, uneducated people into the USA would make this country so much better ?


sell that crap to someone else


no - there is legal immigration and there is criminally coming to the USA illegally - that's the truth and I don't care what excuses are used to justify not doing it legally

 

[stealthycat]

I would say “it depends.” By that I mean if they qualify for asylum, which can open a path to citizenship after several years.

a fair answer

but understand you don't get to decide

if I want a gun RIGHT NOW then why shouldnt I be able to break laws and get them vs waiting for the waiting period or a special permit etc ? I can self justify it

 

[CharisRose]

The back of the line is in their country of origin, isn't it?

Yes it is.

 

[ttwtt78640]

If somebody improperly enters our country to do work for us we should treat them differently than someone who enters our country to harm us.

All economic transactions are mutually beneficial. They do work. We pay them. Everyone benefits.

Furthermore, the illegal immigrants from Central and South America are generally good people who work hard and don't bother anyone.

With respect to how we treat them, whether we deport them or not, we should treat them like human beings, not animals. We should treat them with dignity and respect.

Yes, they've committed a crime, but it's a minor crime of little consequence.

I do not understand the "foam-at-the-mouth" hostility that some Trump supporters demonstrate when they talk about this issue. I think a big part of the hostility has nothing to do with violations of the law, but instead involves ethnic bias, racism, bigotry, etc.

I remember that many Trump supporters who contribute to this forum thought it wasn't a big deal to deport immigrants to a maximum security prison in El Salvador despite the fact that the majority of them had no criminal history. They either didn't care or thought they "deserved" it. For me, I see this as an unconstitutional act on part of the Trump administration as well as a great moral crime.

This way of thinking about immigrants extends to all other aspects of Trump's immigration policies, which Trump supporters tend to support. Remember in the first administration when they separated families? Many Trump supporters loved it. Why? I suspect that many Trump supporters do not view illegal immigrants as actual human beings.

I disagree with that (bolded above) assertion. IMHO, having an underclass of easily exploitable ‘undocumented’ workers filling jobs that many US citizens won’t do (for the compensation and/or working conditions offered) isn’t beneficial. If it was then why was the employment of ‘undocumented’ immigrants made illegal?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I disagree with that (bolded above) assertion. IMHO, having an underclass of easily exploitable ‘undocumented’ workers filling jobs that many US citizens won’t do (for the compensation and/or working conditions offered) isn’t beneficial. If it was then why was the employment of ‘undocumented’ immigrants made illegal?

There are good reasons to require that foreigners enter the U.S. through proper legal channels. Part of it is to control the number of foreign workers allowed to enter and to prevent their exploitation. But that’s not the whole story. National security and public health are also concerns. The government needs to know who is entering the country, especially to prevent threats like terrorism, and it can’t do that if people evade official processes. We also can’t realistically monitor every inch of the border. So it makes sense that unauthorized entry is a crime. It’s a necessary, practical tool for managing immigration.

At the same time, it’s important to recognize that the U.S. has allowed an informal system to grow over the past few decades, one in which millions of illegal immigrants live and work here. This isn’t because of some moral failing on their part, but because American businesses depend on their labor, and because the legal immigration process is slow, complex, and broken. Both political parties have failed to fix it.

Rather than acknowledge that reality, Trump has exploited illegal immigration for political gain. He has turned illegal immigrants into scapegoats, blaming them for his supporters economic and social problems, and promoting a severe, hardline and often inhumane immigration policy.

In my view, illegal immigration is a structural issue, not a personal failing on the part of the immigrants themselves. The problem isn’t the people, it’s the system. We should take that into account when we think about and discuss this issue. And we can make the conscious choice to treat the immigrants as fairly as possible, not as political piñatas.

 

[quip]

so if something isn't fast enough for you, break the law

that's how you want to do things?

We've discussed this distortion of fact.

not really https://debatepolitics.com/threads/more-illegals-hurting-american-citizens.534679/

Yes, really.
Their routine, unsung contribution doesn't lend itself to theatrical headlines. The fact that you must go to the trouble to find (inevitable) exceptions shows that you're being reactive.....motivated by fear instead of sound reasoning.
This (exploited) cowardly reaction remains endemic within the MAGA world.

 

[ttwtt78640]

There are good reasons to require that foreigners enter the U.S. through proper legal channels. Part of it is to control the number of foreign workers allowed to enter and to prevent their exploitation. But that’s not the whole story. National security and public health are also concerns. The government needs to know who is entering the country, especially to prevent threats like terrorism, and it can’t do that if people evade official processes. We also can’t realistically monitor every inch of the border. So it makes sense that unauthorized entry is a crime. It’s a necessary, practical tool for managing immigration.

At the same time, it’s important to recognize that the U.S. has allowed an informal system to grow over the past few decades, one in which millions of illegal immigrants live and work here. This isn’t because of some moral failing on their part, but because American businesses depend on their labor, and because the legal immigration process is slow, complex, and broken. Both political parties have failed to fix it.

Rather than acknowledge that reality, Trump has exploited illegal immigration for political gain. He has turned illegal immigrants into scapegoats, blaming them for his supporters economic and social problems, and promoting a severe, hardline and often inhumane immigration policy.

In my view, illegal immigration is a structural issue, not a personal failing on the part of the immigrants themselves. The problem isn’t the people, it’s the system. We should take that into account when we think about and discuss this issue. And we can make the conscious choice to treat the immigrants as fairly as possible, not as political piñatas.

Yep the lack of interior immigration law enforcement has been a problem, thus congress should enact an eVerify mandate, coupled with changes to the FIT code, allowing the IRS to act as the primary enforcement mechanism. Once the (W-2 and 1099) employment ‘magnet’ is removed then many (if not most) illegal aliens would choose to self-deport.

 

[MamboDervish]

Trump is hurting your ego, huh?

Not even a little. Why would you even think that? Quite the contrary, Trump's ignorance and criminality boost the ego of everyone who observes, and rightly opposes him.

My comment is just a reminder to you of our earlier exchange when I told you that, as POTUS, every single day Trump will say or do something that attracts disappointment, disbelief and derision from the sane adult citizens of this country, which they will no doubt comment on. So every single day you'll be burdened with regurgitating the same "TDS" bullshit, because you're incapable of recognizing that the source of the derangement is Trump himself, ... and he isn't going away. You have condemned yourself to a sentence of writing "TDS", every single day, for at least the next 1,313 days, and I'm happy to keep you apprised of the remainder of your sentence whenever I see you write it.
You can thank me later.

 

[MAGAnificent]

Not even a little. Why would you even think that? Quite the contrary, Trump's ignorance and criminality boost the ego of everyone who observes, and rightly opposes him.

My comment is just a reminder to you of our earlier exchange when I told you that, as POTUS, every single day Trump will say or do something that attracts disappointment, disbelief and derision from the sane adult citizens of this country, which they will no doubt comment on. So every single day you'll be burdened with regurgitating the same "TDS" bullshit, because you're incapable of recognizing that the source of the derangement is Trump himself, ... and he isn't going away. You have condemned yourself to a sentence of writing "TDS", every single day, for at least the next 1,313 days, and I'm happy to keep you apprised of the remainder of your sentence whenever I see you write it.
You can thank me later.

 

[AZRWinger]

Donald isn’t going to read the likes of @MAGAnificent into his decision making. He’s just a lowly foot soldier who doesn’t even own DJT or $TRUMP.

From the linked Financial Times article.

"Officials within the administration have long acknowledged the essential role of farm workers in sustaining the US economy. As White House deputy chief of staff Stephen Miller continues to push for up to 3,000 arrests a day, the pause in agricultural and hospitality sector raids appears to be a strategic recalibration rather than a policy reversal."

Democrats claimed DACA wasn't amnesty, just prosecutorial discretion. But when the Trump administration makes a focus adjustment it's abandoning deportation policy. Fake news, phony scandal.

 

[Captain Adverse]

From the linked Financial Times article.

"Officials within the administration have long acknowledged the essential role of farm workers in sustaining the US economy. As White House deputy chief of staff Stephen Miller continues to push for up to 3,000 arrests a day, the pause in agricultural and hospitality sector raids appears to be a strategic recalibration rather than a policy reversal."

Democrats claimed DACA wasn't amnesty, just prosecutorial discretion. But when the Trump administration makes a focus adjustment it's abandoning deportation policy. Fake news, phony scandal.

Funny thing, migrant farm workers are already a thing allowed by law. People seeking to work in the USA can apply for work visas if they can provide proof of valid seasonal employment. This applies to several forms of employment, like farming, meat processing, and other labor-intensive jobs that most American citizens can do but most choose not to do. They are legal migrant workers who spend a designated period allowed for employment, then a break to return home for a period, and then the ability to return to the same employment.

This is NOT what we are left to deal with after the Biden Administration's literal open-border policy flooded the nation with estimates from a low of 10 million up to about 20 million migrants. The vast majority of these migrants were unvetted. That means large numbers of criminals, terrorists, anti-American religious fundamentalists, spies, and other unsavory characters entered and have been terrorizing the very "sanctuary" cities and States whose governments wanted them to chose residence.

Why? Several reasons. Reason 1: The Census. Blue States have been hemorrhaging residents in favor of Red States for several reasons, not the least of which is the higher State and local taxes needed to pay for all the "goodies" and "services" the Democrats always promise in order to buy votes. But the Census counts bodies, not citizens, and so all the "Sanctuary State" enticements to increase population numbers to increase representation in the Federal Government. Reason 2: Get migrants to come to the Blue States to replace lost American voters and protect them while Democrats modify voter laws allowing them to vote in State and Local elections. Reason 3: To eventually give these migrant invaders citizenship to permanently replace lost American voters in National elections.

That's the plan, a true "Great Replacement" effort, to help Democrats get and maintain permanent political power in both their Blue States and eventually, national elections. We should not let this happen.

 

[Nickyjo]

Funny thing, migrant farm workers are already a thing allowed by law. People seeking to work in the USA can apply for work visas if they can provide proof of valid seasonal employment. This applies to several forms of employment, like farming, meat processing, and other labor-intensive jobs that most American citizens can do but most choose not to do. They are legal migrant workers who spend a designated period allowed for employment, then a break to return home for a period, and then the ability to return to the same employment.

This is NOT what we are left to deal with after the Biden Administration's literal open-border policy flooded the nation with estimates from a low of 10 million up to about 20 million migrants. The vast majority of these migrants were unvetted. That means large numbers of criminals, terrorists, anti-American religious fundamentalists, spies, and other unsavory characters entered and have been terrorizing the very "sanctuary" cities and States whose governments wanted them to chose residence.

Why? Several reasons. Reason 1: The Census. Blue States have been hemorrhaging residents in favor of Red States for several reasons, not the least of which is the higher State and local taxes needed to pay for all the "goodies" and "services" the Democrats always promise in order to buy votes. But the Census counts bodies, not citizens, and so all the "Sanctuary State" enticements to increase population numbers to increase representation in the Federal Government. Reason 2: Get migrants to come to the Blue States to replace lost American voters and protect them while Democrats modify voter laws allowing them to vote in State and Local elections. Reason 3: To eventually give these migrant invaders citizenship to permanently replace lost American voters in National elections.

That's the plan, a true "Great Replacement" effort, to help Democrats get and maintain permanent political power in both their Blue States and eventually, national elections. We should not let this happen.

Paranoia strikes deep.