Should immigrants have a path to citizenship?

[W_Heisenberg]

Sadly, I lost interest in anything you've had to say about this or any other issues quite a while back, hence this notice that I have no interest in responding to you now or in future.

Enjoy.

Okay. Take care.

 

[LostInSeattle]

It is true, they always loved their slaves.

Now THAT's trolling.

 

[Lord of Planar]

GAO iirc.

I think illegals take jobs that Americans don't want especially when we are at fill employment which we've been at since 2021.

That full employment is not so full when you look at the facts.

What about the homeless? Those who lost their jobs and cannot regain the dignity, or pass the smell test to work again? they are not counted.

It used to be a single person could buy a house and raise a family, and the wife could be a stay-at-home mom. Now both parents are forced top work and can barely make ends meet. Some people are now working a second part-time job.

This is not proper full employment. If we lost the illegal work force, wages would go up naturally with supply and demand. Employers would compete for employees. Management would force people to be more productive instead of people being paid while using their cell phones for things other than work. We all see it, someone in the isles with a work shit=rt on, on their cell phone instead of working.

 

[anatta]

Funny thing, migrant farm workers are already a thing allowed by law. People seeking to work in the USA can apply for work visas if they can provide proof of valid seasonal employment. This applies to several forms of employment, like farming, meat processing, and other labor-intensive jobs that most American citizens can do but most choose not to do. They are legal migrant workers who spend a designated period allowed for employment, then a break to return home for a period, and then the ability to return to the same employment.

This is NOT what we are left to deal with after the Biden Administration's literal open-border policy flooded the nation with estimates from a low of 10 million up to about 20 million migrants. The vast majority of these migrants were unvetted. That means large numbers of criminals, terrorists, anti-American religious fundamentalists, spies, and other unsavory characters entered and have been terrorizing the very "sanctuary" cities and States whose governments wanted them to chose residence.

Why? Several reasons. Reason 1: The Census. Blue States have been hemorrhaging residents in favor of Red States for several reasons, not the least of which is the higher State and local taxes needed to pay for all the "goodies" and "services" the Democrats always promise in order to buy votes. But the Census counts bodies, not citizens, and so all the "Sanctuary State" enticements to increase population numbers to increase representation in the Federal Government. Reason 2: Get migrants to come to the Blue States to replace lost American voters and protect them while Democrats modify voter laws allowing them to vote in State and Local elections. Reason 3: To eventually give these migrant invaders citizenship to permanently replace lost American voters in National elections.

That's the plan, a true "Great Replacement" effort, to help Democrats get and maintain permanent political power in both their Blue States and eventually, national elections. We should not let this happen.

Funny thing, migrant farm workers are already a thing allowed by law. People seeking to work in the USA can apply for work visas if they can provide proof of valid seasonal employment. This applies to several forms of employment, like farming, meat processing, and other labor-intensive jobs that most American citizens can do but most choose not to do. They are legal migrant workers who spend a designated period allowed for employment, then a break to return home for a period, and then the ability to return to the same employment.

I was reading Mr Majestyk by Elmore Leonard. The title is about a melon farm where the owner tries to get his melons to market.
He uses seasonal workers that came around each planting to pick the melons - then they moved on.
It is a good system, some workers came back year after year

 

[LostInSeattle]

I was reading Mr Majestyk by Elmore Leonard. The title is about a melon farm where the owner tries to get his melons to market.
He uses seasonal workers that came around each planting to pick the melons - then they moved on.

It is a good system, some workers came back year after year

Didnt' know it was a book. I saw the movie with Charles Bronson.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Do I really have to argue with you about this? Do you really reject the idea that a significant fraction of Trump's supporters have a very negative view of illegal immigrants? For example, Captain Adverse just called them "invaders."

I can agree with "significant" as that is generally accepted as low as 5%.

The bottom line is I view nearly all immigrants as a net-positive, and I have seen no evidence that immigrants, legal or not, have a negative impact on our debt in any way.

Nearly all? OK, where do you draw the line?

And let's assume they do burden us in some way. There's nothing stopping us from creating a system where immigrants pay their fair share.

I have a hard time debating when someone cannot properly use qualifiers. You mean "illegal" immigrant, right? Please do not forget, very, very few of us on the right side of center dislike legal immigration. The numbers on the right that dislike legal immigration are very insignificant. But I will bet the leftist media displays those few in full force for their propaganda.

Okay. Are you aware that some of your political allies do not view things in the same way?

Yes. Sorry, but I do not have that lock-step mentality like you apparently do.

 

[trixare4kids]

I disagree with your assertions I've bolded. I see those as false beliefs on your part. Literally every UN-biased poll shows both major support for Trump's policies from legal immigrants, and by most Americans. He is doing what those who voted for him want, need, and expect him to do.

Sadly, I lost interest in anything you've had to say about this or any other issues quite a while back, hence this notice that I have no interest in responding to you now or in future.

Enjoy.

Some simply do not accept the facts. I found the most left-leaning source I could to prove a point, actually the very point you made above.

A New York Times/Ipsos poll from January 2025 found that just over half of Americans supported deporting all undocumented immigrants, even among those who otherwise disapprove of Trump.

 

[Captain Adverse]

I was reading Mr Majestyk by Elmore Leonard. The title is about a melon farm where the owner tries to get his melons to market.
He uses seasonal workers that came around each planting to pick the melons - then they moved on.

It is a good system, some workers came back year after year

I saw the 1974 movie version starring Charles Bronson. I liked the plot.

 

[trixare4kids]

Another left leaning news source, the Washington Post-Ipsos poll in February 2025 showed 51% supported deporting all 11 million estimated undocumented immigrants.

 

[anatta]

Didnt' know it was a book. I saw the movie with Charles Bronson.

Elmore Leonard is a low key writer (in terms of plots) with good character development.

 

[JMR]

Another left leaning news source, the Washington Post-Ipsos poll in February 2025 showed 51% supported deporting all 11 million estimated undocumented immigrants.

What was the margin of error? Did the respondents favor sending them to El Salvador prisons?

That 51% equals the number of people who didn't vote for Trump.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

No matter how many times I tell these people I do not listen to Fox or any of the pundits, they simply cannot believe I have my own mind with my own decisions based on research and experience.

They must think I am as stupid as they are.

I have a friend just like you. My friend insists just as you do that he arrives at his political opinions independent of anyone else, and especially independent of any media outlet. Yet, for some reason he still repeats the right-wing talking points of the day, verbatim. Where does he get his information? I don't know, but I am super skeptical that he tells me the truth about his sources of information. I let it be though. I don't try to hassle him.

 

[anatta]

Another left leaning news source, the Washington Post-Ipsos poll in February 2025 showed 51% supported deporting all 11 million estimated undocumented immigrants.

There is a lot of really good immigration reform that could be accomplished. Not talking about that monstrosity that codified a certain amount of illegals that then gave POTUS powers. Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act
Dems are too busy bashing ICE - so no Congressional will to do it.

It's complicated stuff. I'm still trying to make sure i get the idea on H2A.. It would solve the problem of "who going to pick the crops"
but still allow for deportation of unemployable/undesirable migrants..Here is H2A

The H-2A visa allows U.S. employers to bring foreign nationals to the United States to fill temporary or seasonal agricultural jobs. It requires employers to first obtain a temporary labor certification from the Department of Labor, proving they couldn't find qualified U.S. workers. Once certified, they can petition USCIS for H-2A classification for foreign workers

 

[Lord of Planar]

If your position is that you're okay with the Trump administration mass-deporting as many people as possible without respect to their criminal record then that's your position.

Yes, I am OK with this. We have too many unwelcome people here. If you want to welcome them, do it with your own resources. Sponsor as many as you can.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

New polling shows people of all stripes want immigrants treated with dignity • Ohio Capital Journal

A poll conducted last week found that Americans overwhelmingly think that deportations should focus on immigrants who commit crime, that the persecuted should be protected, and that families should be kept intact.

ohiocapitaljournal.com

A poll conducted last week indicates that large majorities of Americans don’t hold views of immigrants that are as harsh of those of President-elect Donald Trump. They include many who voted for him.

The poll found that Americans overwhelmingly think that deportations should focus on immigrants who commit violent crime, that the persecuted should be protected, and that families should be kept intact.

The survey of 1,200 adults was conducted between Dec. 3 and Dec. 7 by the National Immigration Forum in partnership with The Bullfinch Group. The National Immigration Forum works with the business community, police, and the clergy as it advocates for immigrants.

There are an estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants in the United States. Trump has vowed to deport millions and his allies say he’ll “seal the border.”

Respondents were asked whether they believe deportation efforts should focus on “violent criminals and those with final orders of removal,” or “all individuals without legal status, including those who have otherwise followed laws and have U.S. citizen family.”

Two-thirds, 66%, said violent criminals and those with deportation orders should be the focus, while 34% said efforts should target all undocumented immigrants.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Huge majorities support due process for migrants. They haven't always gotten it in Ohio • Ohio Capital Journal

A new poll finds that by a yawning margin, Americans believe people should get due process of law before being ejected from the United States — but advocates say they've sometimes been denied it in Ohio.

ohiocapitaljournal.com

A new poll finds that by a yawning margin, Americans believe people should get due process of law before being ejected from the United States — but advocates say they’ve sometimes been denied it in Ohio.

President Donald Trump is clashing with the courts over what detainees are legally entitled to as Immigration and Customs Enforcement rounds up people it believes are undocumented and takes them overseas.

A federal judge in Boston on Wednesday ruled that eight migrants sent to the violence-torn country of South Sudan were not given a meaningful chance to contest the deportations on the grounds that they would be put in danger. Only one of the individuals is from South Sudan.

The administration deported Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia to El Salvador even though a court issued an order forbidding it. The U.S. Supreme Court has subsequently ruled that the administration cannot deport people without giving them due process.

Most people of all ages and partisan affiliations believe that’s the proper course.

A poll released Tuesday by the Bullfinch Group and the National Immigration Forum gave respondents a brief definition of due process. Then they were asked whether they supported or opposed requiring due process before deporting people.

Sixty-three percent said they supported doing so, 23% were opposed, and 14% were undecided. That’s a 40-point margin in favor of due process.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

After more than four months in office, a new Quinnipiac University poll shows most Americans oppose his actions on immigration and deportations. Fifty-four percent of registered voters disapprove of “the way Donald Trump is handling immigration issues,” and only 43% approve. Fifty-two percent of independents disapprove, vs. 43% approve. Among Republicans, 87% approve, and 9% disapprove. Among Democrats, 4% approve of how Donald Trump handles immigration, and 95% disapprove.

New Poll Rates Trump Poorly On Trade, Immigration And Ukraine

A new Quinnipiac University poll gives Donald Trump poor ratings on trade, immigration and efforts to end the war in Ukraine.

www.forbes.com

 

[Lord of Planar]

New polling shows people of all stripes want immigrants treated with dignity • Ohio Capital Journal

A poll conducted last week found that Americans overwhelmingly think that deportations should focus on immigrants who commit crime, that the persecuted should be protected, and that families should be kept intact.

ohiocapitaljournal.com

A poll conducted last week indicates that large majorities of Americans don’t hold views of immigrants that are as harsh of those of President-elect Donald Trump. They include many who voted for him.

The poll found that Americans overwhelmingly think that deportations should focus on immigrants who commit violent crime, that the persecuted should be protected, and that families should be kept intact.

The survey of 1,200 adults was conducted between Dec. 3 and Dec. 7 by the National Immigration Forum in partnership with The Bullfinch Group. The National Immigration Forum works with the business community, police, and the clergy as it advocates for immigrants.

There are an estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants in the United States. Trump has vowed to deport millions and his allies say he’ll “seal the border.”

Respondents were asked whether they believe deportation efforts should focus on “violent criminals and those with final orders of removal,” or “all individuals without legal status, including those who have otherwise followed laws and have U.S. citizen family.”

Two-thirds, 66%, said violent criminals and those with deportation orders should be the focus, while 34% said efforts should target all undocumented immigrants.

Yes, and the corporate overlords know the effect their broadcasts have on the audience. Too bad journalism is dead, and we only have propaganda in the media. the information is only loosely based on facts, with lots of spin.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Yes, I am OK with this. We have too many unwelcome people here.

So, basically you're okay with 2025 version of Operation Wetback:

Operation Wetback - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Operation Wetback, was a mass deportation campaign that used militarized tactics to remove hundreds of thousands of Mexican immigrants, many of whom were legal residents or even U.S. citizens, without due process.

The operation caused widespread hardship People were rounded up indiscriminately, denied access to belongings or families, and deported to unfamiliar parts of Mexico. Without food, without jobs, or means to return.

Conditions during deportations were harsh. There were many deaths from extreme heat and poor treatment.

If you want to welcome them, do it with your own resources. Sponsor as many as you can.

This happens any way when employers pay them.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Yes, and the corporate overlords know the effect their broadcasts have on the audience. Too bad journalism is dead, and we only have propaganda in the media. the information is only loosely based on facts, with lots of spin.

What are you arguing against specifically? Are you making the argument that the people who think that criminals should be deported first have not arrived at this opinion independently? Are you suggesting that if these people did not listen to corporate media then they would have your opinion, that everyone should be deported in one mass deportation like Operation Wetback?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

There is a lot of really good immigration reform that could be accomplished. Not talking about that monstrosity that codified a certain amount of illegals that then gave POTUS powers. Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act
Dems are too busy bashing ICE - so no Congressional will to do it.

It's complicated stuff. I'm still trying to make sure i get the idea on H2A.. It would solve the problem of "who going to pick the crops"
but still allow for deportation of unemployable/undesirable migrants..Here is H2A

The H-2A visa allows U.S. employers to bring foreign nationals to the United States to fill temporary or seasonal agricultural jobs. It requires employers to first obtain a temporary labor certification from the Department of Labor, proving they couldn't find qualified U.S. workers. Once certified, they can petition USCIS for H-2A classification for foreign workers

The bottom line is that the caps for the worker visa programs are too low, and we need more foreign workers than what the caps allow.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Some simply do not accept the facts. I found the most left-leaning source I could to prove a point, actually the very point you made above.

A New York Times/Ipsos poll from January 2025 found that just over half of Americans supported deporting all undocumented immigrants, even among those who otherwise disapprove of Trump.

To be clear, do you now accept NYT/Ipsos poll results?

Am I to assume that if I show you a NYT/Ipsos poll result you will accept it?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Another left leaning news source, the Washington Post-Ipsos poll in February 2025 showed 51% supported deporting all 11 million estimated undocumented immigrants.

If I present you as WP/Ipsos poll result, will you accept it as being true?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Nearly all? OK, where do you draw the line?

Okay, first of all, I think it's ****ed up to call these people "invaders." They're regular people looking for a job. So, whatever we do we are morally obligated to treat them with dignity and respect. And if you and your political allies are incapable of doing that, you're going to have to at least follow the law and abide by the Constitution.

As far as visa caps on low-skilled or high-skilled labor, I think we should have as many immigrants come here as it makes practical sense. What that number is, I don't know. I don't care if it's low or high. If it make sense to have a large number of foreign workers work in the U.S. through an organized, regulated worker program, I'm fine with that.

My line is practical. How many employees do businesses need? How many American workers can and want to do the job?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I have a hard time debating when someone cannot properly use qualifiers. You mean "illegal" immigrant, right?

I often use the term "undocumented", but we can use the term "illegal" if the word "immigrant" or "undocumented" offends you. It doesn't matter to me. They are still human beings in my eyes no matter what minor or misdemeanor crime they committed or what you prefer to call them.

Please do not forget, very, very few of us on the right side of center dislike legal immigration.

Let's put that to the test. What's your line? How many legal immigrants are you willing to accept into the U.S. right now?