Should immigrants have a path to citizenship?

[ttwtt78640]

I appreciate your thoughtful responses. You seem far more level-headed than some of the Trump supporters who accuse the migrants of being "invaders."

However, I am a little taken aback that a libertarian would support such a solution. This is another big government type of approach, isn't it?

It would be far less expensive than the round-up costs of “mass deportation”.

Also, what's to stop employers from just paying workers with cash?

The lack of ability to write off their direct labor costs as a business expense.

The government doesn't have enough personnel to track every business in the U.S.

They manage to do so to collect FIT.

If businesses need these workers, it seems to me it would be better to just raise the visa caps to something like 10 million or so. That should be enough. This would also incentivize workers to enter through the proper official places of entry.

Yep, and collect the fees for the ‘temporary’ work visas.

 

[Lord of Planar]

What are you arguing against specifically? Are you making the argument that the people who think that criminals should be deported first have not arrived at this opinion independently? Are you suggesting that if these people did not listen to corporate media then they would have your opinion, that everyone should be deported in one mass deportation like Operation Wetback?

Only pointing out that polls based on the same topics the media tells the people, are an indication of the sway the media has. Impossible to use the statistic as not being biased itself.

When the media reports on a poll they took regarding the same things they speak of, they are actually looking at their propaganda efficiency.

 

[Lord of Planar]

The bottom line is that the caps for the worker visa programs are too low, and we need more foreign workers than what the caps allow.

In some cases that is true. Never in low skilled labor. Employment agencies need to start verifying if people receiving unemployment are actually seeking work, and hand out these farm assignments to people in the area.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Okay, first of all, I think it's ****ed up to call these people "invaders."

Yet you yourself use what ever synonym you choose for impact rather than accuracy.

They're regular people looking for a job.

I agree, and I sympathize with them.

So, whatever we do we are morally obligated to treat them with dignity and respect.

I suspect in most cases, they are. You have lots of individual agents, acting in their own personal ways. Just like with police on the street, some are better at respecting the citizen that others. Of course, every disrespectful action found will be highlighted for propaganda.

And if you and your political allies are incapable of doing that, you're going to have to at least follow the law and abide by the Constitution.

I have no "political allies." Do you forget that I refer to our elected officials as the lesser of two evils that I do vote for?

As far as visa caps on low-skilled or high-skilled labor, I think we should have as many immigrants come here as it makes practical sense. What that number is, I don't know. I don't care if it's low or high. If it make sense to have a large number of foreign workers work in the U.S. through an organized, regulated worker program, I'm fine with that.

My line is practical. How many employees do businesses need? How many American workers can and want to do the job?

Low skilled laborers are already everywhere among us. We have no need for more. We simply need to put our own in these jobs and reduce the subsidies we pay them not to work.

 

[anatta]

The bottom line is that the caps for the worker visa programs are too low, and we need more foreign workers than what the caps allow.

It also looks like the trigger for seasonal workers is too dependent on how many US workers..anyways..yes it needs reform

 

[Lord of Planar]

Let's put that to the test. What's your line? How many legal immigrants are you willing to accept into the U.S. right now?

I have done little thought on the issue. I don't even remember the numbers we do accept accurately.

I believe we have something like 1.1 million legal immigrants annually. I think we can at least double that once we dramatically mitigate illegal immigration.

So, basically you're okay with 2025 version of Operation Wetback:

Operation Wetback - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Operation Wetback, was a mass deportation campaign that used militarized tactics to remove hundreds of thousands of Mexican immigrants, many of whom were legal residents or even U.S. citizens, without due process.

The operation caused widespread hardship People were rounded up indiscriminately, denied access to belongings or families, and deported to unfamiliar parts of Mexico. Without food, without jobs, or means to return.

Conditions during deportations were harsh. There were many deaths from extreme heat and poor treatment.





This happens any way when employers pay them.

I don't know the specifics, but regardless of the name, this shows this has been a historical issue unresolved so far.

Don't you think it is time to do so?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Only pointing out that polls based on the same topics the media tells the people, are an indication of the sway the media has. Impossible to use the statistic as not being biased itself.

When the media reports on a poll they took regarding the same things they speak of, they are actually looking at their propaganda efficiency.

Okay, so it seems you arrive at all of your political conclusions independently without any outside influence whatsoever.

You distrust all polls, even those that might reinforce your own biases and conclusions.

If anyone disagrees with you it's obvious that their opinions are the product of corporate media and not their own moral compass.

And any similarity between your statements and the right-wing talking points of the day are pure coincidence.

Is there anything else I'm missing?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I have done little thought on the issue. I don't even remember the numbers we do accept accurately.

I believe we have something like 1.1 million legal immigrants annually. I think we can at least double that once we dramatically mitigate illegal immigration

Okay, wow, I honestly thought you'd say zero.

Okay, so of the 10 million illegal immigrants currently in America, you'd be okay with allowing about 1 million of them to stay here legally? That sounds like what you're saying. Is that correct?

 

[Lord of Planar]

Legal Immigration to the United States, 1820-Present

The United States attracts the largest number of immigrants in the world, who join the fabric of U.S. society through avenues such as citizenship, becoming legal permanent residents (LPRs), or by seeking humanitarian protection. This chart tracks the number of people who annually are granted...

www.migrationpolicy.org

 

[Lord of Planar]

Okay, wow, I honestly thought you'd say zero.

You lefties frequently use you hateful confirmation bias and assume inaccurate things about me.

Okay, so of the 10 million illegal immigrants currently in America, you'd be okay with allowing about 1 million of them to stay here legally?

If they meet the current qualifications set in place for the legal status the current average 1.1 million average qualify for. We can at least double legal immigration, but not until we dramatically stop illegal immigration.

That sounds like what you're saying. Is that correct?

Yes. I welcome new blood into this nation. I love my Cuban girlfriend who is legal.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

I don't know the specifics, but regardless of the name, this shows this has been a historical issue unresolved so far.

You seem to be missing the point.

You seem to not care that the Mexicans were treated very poorly during Operation Wetback.

Why do you not seem to care that the Mexicans were treated very poorly?

Don't you think it is time to do so?

I agree that we should have a well-regulated border, and we should know who enters our country. I think we should know who is here currently.

At the same time, I think that the visa caps should be as high as possible. I also think a robust temporary worker program that allows many millions of immigrants to live and work in the U.S. legally is a very good idea.

I also think some allowance for a pathway to citizenship is a good idea, whether they came here legally or not. It depends on the situation. For example, if somebody serves in the military, or if they've been living here 20 years, and they have a bunch of U.S. citizen children and U.S. citizen grandchildren.

With respect to deportations, I think if we're going to deport people we can do it as humanely as possible. We can make the deliberate choice to not be belligerent assholes like Stephen Miller is.

For example, we should not be deporting people who have no criminal record to a maximum security prison in El Salvador, that's crazy. I think there is something wrong with people who think that's a good idea. Anyone who thinks deporting illegal immigrants to El Salvador without due process to a maximum security prison where they'll like spend the rest of their lives is not a good person in my view. It's pure evil.

Most of you profess to be Christians. It didn't stick very well for me, but I don't remember this sermon at the church I went to when I was a kid. I don't remember the preacher saying, "Let's treat immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, like animals." In fact, I think we can find scripture that shows us that opposite.

I don't get it. I don't understand why you folks are so mean to these people. It doesn't make any sense to me. And sometimes the only conclusion I can come to is that some Trump supporters don't like the Latin Americans because they're not 100% descended from Northern Europeans. That's the only thing that explains the extreme irrationality of some of the actions of your political allies.

 

[Lord of Planar]

You seem to be missing the point.

You seem to not care that the Mexicans were treated very poorly during Operation Wetback.

Why do you not seem to care that the Mexicans were treated very poorly?

Our society was different that many years back. We have matured since then.

I agree that we should have a well-regulated border, and we should know who enters our country. I think we should know who is here currently.

At the same time, I think that the visa caps should be as high as possible. I also think a robust temporary worker program that allows many millions of immigrants to live and work in the U.S. legally is a very good idea.

How can we determine how high we can accept until we can stop the illegal entries?

With respect to deportations, I think if we're going to deport people we can do it as humanely as possible. We can make the deliberate choice to not be belligerent assholes like Stephen Miller is.

I have not seen much outside of what we discuss in this forum. I take it your favorite talking heads are vilifying him.

For example, we should not be deporting people who have no criminal record to a maximum security prison in El Salvador, that's crazy. I think there is something wrong with people who think that's a good idea. Anyone who thinks deporting illegal immigrants to El Salvador without due process to a maximum security prison where they'll like spend the rest of their lives is not a good person in my view. It's pure evil.

A message needs to be sent. If this is the way the administration has chosen to do so, so be it.

Maybe you have a better way to mitigate the illegal immigration. If so, tell us.

Most of you profess to be Christians. It didn't stick very well for me, but I don't remember this sermon at the church I went to when I was a kid. I don't remember the preacher saying, "Let's treat immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, like animals." In fact, I think we can find scripture that shows us that opposite.

Did you forget? This is not a nation ruled by religion.

I don't get it. I don't understand why you folks are so mean to these people. It doesn't make any sense to me. And sometimes the only conclusion I can come to is that some Trump supporters don't like the Latin Americans because they're not 100% descended from Northern Europeans. That's the only thing that explains the extreme irrationality of some of the actions of your political allies.

Why are you so mean to people you disagree with? It is human nature. Do you not see it in yourself?

 

[W_Heisenberg]

Yes. I welcome new blood into this nation. I love my Cuban girlfriend who is legal.

The Cubans got a free pass, man, and they got a free pass because we decided to give them one.

And there's nothing stopping us from doing the same thing for everyone else. We can just simply choose to let more immigrants in. We can simply choose to have a more orderly and organized worker visa program. It's a choice we can make. I'm not saying we should have an open border. I'm saying there is a number between 0 and many millions, and the right number is probably not zero.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

View attachment 67575131

Legal Immigration to the United States, 1820-Present

The United States attracts the largest number of immigrants in the world, who join the fabric of U.S. society through avenues such as citizenship, becoming legal permanent residents (LPRs), or by seeking humanitarian protection. This chart tracks the number of people who annually are granted...

www.migrationpolicy.org

Oh, the red line is your line?

That's your line?

 

[Lord of Planar]

The Cubans got a free pass, man, and they got a free pass because we decided to give them one.

And there's nothing stopping us from doing the same thing for everyone else. We can just simply choose to let more immigrants in. We can simply choose to have a more orderly and organized worker visa program. It's a choice we can make. I'm not saying we should have an open border. I'm saying there is a number between 0 and many millions, and the right number is probably not zero.

Numbers.

We have to be cautious as to the numbers.

I don't know the reason that Cubans are given favoritism, but I have an opinion as to why. Just the same, she first got her passport while in Cuba. She then applied for a work visa and got one. She came here and while working applied for permanent status and got that. She is now working on her citizenship.

She came here in the legal manner like others can do.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Oh, the red line is your line?

That's your line?

Yes, I added that line. I said 1.1 million in an earlier post from memory. Looked up the information and posted it, adding the red line for my earlier number.

 

[W_Heisenberg]

A message needs to be sent. If this is the way the administration has chosen to do so, so be it.

Well, first of all, it's against the law to do what the Trump administration. The government can't do tha.t

Second, it's just messed up. How would you like it if you or a member of your family, or your friend, or your girlfriend be sent to a prison despite not committing a crime worthy of imprisonment? That's not how our country works. The whole point of our country is to not have things like this happen to people. That's one of the reasons why we left the British Empire.

Why are you so mean to people you disagree with? It is human nature. Do you not see it in yourself?

I don't agree with you. I don't even think I like you. But I don't want you to go to prison if you haven't committed a crime. I don't want the government to mistreat you. I can't fathom why you would wish that upon anyone else?

Maybe you have a better way to mitigate the illegal immigration. If so, tell us.

I have lots of ideas to mitigate illegal immigration, but I will say this. I don't agree that the illegal immigrants are bad people. They should not be treated like animals, and I do not believe the ends justify the means. And I do not think we face a situation so dire that we should abandon our core political and legal values such as due process.

 

[stealthycat]

We've discussed this distortion of fact.

no its literally what it is

illegally here people didn't like our system, they didn't like to wait, maybe they didn't like that they'd be rejected, ... whatever the reason it was more important to break laws

we can all use that self-justification

Yes, really.
Their routine, unsung contribution doesn't lend itself to theatrical headlines. The fact that you must go to the trouble to find (inevitable) exceptions shows that you're being reactive.....motivated by fear instead of sound reasoning.
This (exploited) cowardly reaction remains endemic within the MAGA world.

tell me .... do you know how many illegally here people have criminal records? jobs? how many have stolen SS#'s or identify thefts, faked ID's .... you can google and daily you'll find news reports on illegally here people and crimes. Its DAILY

 

[stealthycat]

literally everyday ........ this is who liberals fight hard to keep pouring across the border and living in the USA illegally

Illegal immigrant faces charges for spitting on ICE officer in Los Angeles: 'OK, you got me'

ICE arrests illegal immigrant Omar Pulido Bastida and charges him with spitting on an agent in Los Angeles. Bastida has a previous robbery conviction and has faced murder charges.

www.foxnews.com

Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) says an illegal immigrant with a past robbery conviction, and who was previously arrested on murder and assault charges, was arrested after spitting on an agent last Tuesday.

Omar Pulido Bastida, 41, is facing a federal assault charge for allegedly spitting on an ICE agent while they were trying to arrest him for illegally returning to the United States, as he’s been deported before.

 

[eohrnberger]

Now THAT's trolling.

Not really.

Prominent Democrats exclaimed 'Who's going to pick our crops?' upon hearing ICE conducting their immigration enforcement actions.
They've self-identified.

 

[eohrnberger]

So, basically you're okay with 2025 version of Operation Wetback:

Operation Wetback - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Operation Wetback, was a mass deportation campaign that used militarized tactics to remove hundreds of thousands of Mexican immigrants, many of whom were legal residents or even U.S. citizens, without due process.

The operation caused widespread hardship People were rounded up indiscriminately, denied access to belongings or families, and deported to unfamiliar parts of Mexico. Without food, without jobs, or means to return.

Conditions during deportations were harsh. There were many deaths from extreme heat and poor treatment.





This happens any way when employers pay them.

There would be no need for an 'Operation Wetback' redux, and likely there wouldn't have been one, had Biden not had de-facto open borders allowing, encouraging, instigating, facilitating mass migration into the country.

 

[eohrnberger]

literally everyday ........ this is who liberals fight hard to keep pouring across the border and living in the USA illegally

Illegal immigrant faces charges for spitting on ICE officer in Los Angeles: 'OK, you got me'

ICE arrests illegal immigrant Omar Pulido Bastida and charges him with spitting on an agent in Los Angeles. Bastida has a previous robbery conviction and has faced murder charges.

www.foxnews.com

Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) says an illegal immigrant with a past robbery conviction, and who was previously arrested on murder and assault charges, was arrested after spitting on an agent last Tuesday.

Omar Pulido Bastida, 41, is facing a federal assault charge for allegedly spitting on an ICE agent while they were trying to arrest him for illegally returning to the United States, as he’s been deported before.

I repeat offender and a repeat illegal immigrant, so what's the hold up in deporting him, exactly?
I mean, other than making sure he's kept out of country.

 

[stealthycat]

I repeat offender and a repeat illegal immigrant, so what's the hold up in deporting him, exactly?

Democrats / liberals / left

I mean, other than making sure he's kept out of country.

border is way more secure now helps


but you're right - until our Congress passes something that puts a heavy penalty on people coming back to the USA illegally it'll continue to happen over and over and over

our Fed Govt is a failure on this, Republican's and Democrats both

 

[ttwtt78640]

I repeat offender and a repeat illegal immigrant, so what's the hold up in deporting him, exactly?

It appears they want him to spend some time in federal prison first.

I mean, other than making sure he's kept out of country.

Having much better border security should help.

 

[eohrnberger]

It appears they want him to spend some time in federal prison first.

If serving a prison term and then deportation keeps him from coming back, OK fine.

Having much better border security should help.

Agreed, now that the joke of border security has been replaced.