Should immigrants have a path to citizenship?

[Mycroft]

Post 27. He's also on video saying it in the Oval Office.

I've watched that video a number of times and I STILL don't see him saying they can stay.

 

[phoenix2020]

Sure. The priority now is those illegals who have vast criminal records such as rape, murder, and child molestation. However simple illegals will be deported as well.

 

[Risky Thicket]

That's what he's said. I'm not sure that's actually happening. It's a matter of time before his own Einsatzgruppenfuhrer Stephen Miller throws a tantrum and demands 4,000 - no, 5000 people rounded up and deported daily.



Indeed, in the agricultural sector, it's not just harvesting but also processing. Some of the work at meat processing plants, for example, is back-breaking and extremely dangerous. They risk severe injury and even death on a regular basis. You're never going to convince me that people born here in the U. S. and who've either done service work or the trades is going to give up their job to go work in a meat processing facility or harvesting in 100+ degree heat.

It's not just agriculture, though. Immigrant labor is crucial for everything from restaurants to lawn & landscaping to stocking grocery stores. Without immigrant labor, which almost certainly includes undocumented workers, these businesses don't just suffer decline; they collapse and go out of business - overnight. There's nobody to do their work. There are probably places in the U.S. where that's not true, but that's only because migrants haven't settled there. Anywhere you have larger populations and demographic diversity, migrant labor is a crucial backbone to many sectors of the economy.



Yes and no. I guess this gets into a semantic debate about what path really means.

This is one area where I'm somewhat of a centrist/pragmatist. I don't think they should be allowed to violate immigration laws without at least some consequences; otherwise, we just encourage more mass migration, and we do have borders and immigration laws for a reason - every nation does.

But I think we could set up a multi-pronged approach whereby maybe they voluntarily self-report their lack of status and then start a process of review and compliance. I just wonder how many would truly be interested in that, though. I think the reason many arrive without documents is that the process is long, bureaucratic, and expensive, and they don't have the resources or the time to wait.

I kind of feel like the better path would be to make legal immigration a lot more flexible, but we live in the post 9/11 world and everyone's afraid of being blamed for the next domestic crisis caused by furriners.

I agree that there can be a better way to allow legal migrants.

You also bring up a good point that warrants serious attention and consideration. No matter what this administration says, they can and they have suddenly changed their positions. Most Americans, most non-Americans are very much aware of that. Most non-Americans can't and should not forget it. This administration cannot be trusted.

How many worthy sincere non-Americans are now and in the future will be extremely reluctant to migrate to the U.S.?

Once again the haphazard, slapdash, ill-planned (if at all) actions by the current administration creates greater problems than the initial issue.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I much prefer we turn the country into a police state where everyone must have their papers, law enforcement is invading workplaces and homes and spend billions in order to deport 12 million people or put them in camps.

And don't forget "internal passports" because we cannot allow American citizens to just hop on a train or plane or get in a car and go anywhere they want without first asking permission.
The very idea that anyone can just leave Los Angeles and drive to New York is a grave security risk!

/s

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

On the left, we have such idiocy that in places like Portland, Honduran drug dealers are selling fentanyl on the streets, and they still aren't deported when they are arrested for it, even though they are here illegally.

This liberal is all in favor of arresting criminals of all kinds, and if they are here illegally and caught in the commission of a crime it is the responsible thing to do to incarcerate them and then deport them. I've never wavered "that far left" that I would find excuses for leaving such people free to do as they please and would love to hear the so called "lefty" argument in their defense.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what lefties are saying in defense of Honduran fent-slingers on the streets of Portland.

 

[trixare4kids]

The law states that if someone enters the country illegally, is found to be in the country for a year or more, and is caught, they are deported. They then must wait ten years before they are permitted to try to migrate back into the country legally. If they are found to be in the country for less than a year and are deported the penalties are generally less for a legal reentry.

 

[Risky Thicket]

And don't forget "internal passports" because we cannot allow American citizens to just hop on a train or plane or get in a car and go anywhere they want without first asking permission.
The very idea that anyone can just leave Los Angeles and drive to New York is a grave security risk!

/s

That can be handled easily. Employers can hire white American masters to watch and supervise workers. Mount them on horses and give them whips. Some recalcitrant workers might need to be whipped publicly or chained to their work stations.

Wait...that sounds familiar.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The law states that if someone enters the country illegally, is found to be in the country for a year or more, and is caught, they are deported. They then must wait ten years before they are permitted to try to migrate back into the country legally. If they are found to be in the country for less than a year and are deported the penalties are generally less for a legal reentry.

Many don’t much care what the laws state and choose to selectively enforce the laws.

 

[Eriech]

Trump has recognized that undocumented immigrants are important for several industries and has backed off arresting and deporting them. I would argue that there are a lot more industries that need these workers to operate effectively.

Those immigrants who haven't committed crimes and are productively employed - should they be allowed to remain and given a path to citizenship?

Crimes over and above being in the US illegally?
They should self report and take advantage of free transport and a $1k to help with transition back into home country and seek a legal process to come back if they wish.

 

[trixare4kids]

Many don’t much care what the laws state and choose to selectively enforce the laws.

That seems to be the real problem. We finally have a president who isn't turning the blind eye to the federal laws that have been ignored, and some are having a shit fit. Like how dare him keep his campaign promises to the people. He won both the EC and the popular vote. People knew what they were voting for.

As we both have mentioned time and time again, if you don't like the laws, write your congress person and request they attempt to change them.

Why even have laws if they aren't enforced? Blaming a president who promised to clean up this mess is being done not because some don't care about the lawlessness, but because they will not tolerate personally tolerate Trump as president. Well, what about the rest of us who do tolerate a president who is keeping his campaign promises?

All I can say to them is better luck in the next presidential election.

 

[multivita-man]

I agree that there can be a better way to allow legal migrants.

You also bring up a good point that warrants serious attention and consideration. No matter what this administration says, they can and they have suddenly changed their positions. Most Americans, most non-Americans are very much aware of that. Most non-Americans can't and should not forget it. This administration cannot be trusted.

How many worthy sincere non-Americans are now and in the future will be extremely reluctant to migrate to the U.S.?

For many (most?), it's a matter of straight-up economics. As long as the US economy keeps growing and has a demand for labor that goes unmet, there will be employers who will want cheap but capable labor wherever they can find it, and there will be people south of the border willing to gamble their lives and freedom to make it work. This administration could set up 1942-style detention centers and the moment that era ends - and I believe it would eventually - they would come right back because survival is survival and business is business. Migrants don't have time for our political debates, even though they're now at the very center of them.

One good way to keep migrants out of the country is to have a massive economic depression, which I think is within the realm of the possible sometime in the next four years. Maybe then the MAGA assholes would finally shut their asses up, but I doubt it.

 

[ElChupacabra]

For many (most?), it's a matter of straight-up economics. As long as the US economy keeps growing and has a demand for labor that goes unmet, there will be employers who will want cheap but capable labor wherever they can find it, and there will be people south of the border willing to gamble their lives and freedom to make it work. This administration could set up 1942-style detention centers and the moment that era ends - and I believe it would eventually - they would come right back because survival is survival and business is business. Migrants don't have time for our political debates, even though they're now at the very center of them.

One good way to keep migrants out of the country is to have a massive economic depression, which I think is within the realm of the possible sometime in the next four years. Maybe then the MAGA assholes would finally shut their asses up, but I doubt it.

This is right in purely practical terms. From the US perspective, there are laws already in place to manage the use of illegal immigrants but the government does not apply the pressure there in the same way it does the migrants for obvious reasons; one being it is much easier to deport migrants than prosecute American business owners. For a long time the focus has always been at stopping the symptom but not the problem, and it's the same flawed approach we've seen with drugs, where the focus is mostly a supply driven focus but little effort at the demand problem.

 

[ttwtt78640]

This is right in purely practical terms. From the US perspective, there are laws already in place to manage the use of illegal immigrants but the government does not apply the pressure there in the same way it does the migrants for obvious reasons; one being it is much easier to deport migrants than prosecute American business owners. For a long time the focus has always been at stopping the symptom but not the problem, and it's the same flawed approach we've seen with drugs, where the focus is mostly a supply driven focus but little effort at the demand problem.

Yep, having adequate demand side enforcement is important.

 

[Lisa]

Trump has recognized that undocumented immigrants are important for several industries and has backed off arresting and deporting them. I would argue that there are a lot more industries that need these workers to operate effectively.

Those immigrants who haven't committed crimes and are productively employed - should they be allowed to remain and given a path to citizenship?

Yes, absolutely they should have a path to citizenship.

 

[antiquity]

Trump has recognized that undocumented immigrants are important for several industries and has backed off arresting and deporting them. I would argue that there are a lot more industries that need these workers to operate effectively.

Those immigrants who haven't committed crimes and are productively employed - should they be allowed to remain and given a path to citizenship?

Yes but they need to get in line....I am not sure if illegal aliens are important to any industry but those immigrants who process a green card are.

 

[dmpi]

You're fooling yourself into thinking these people have any loyalty, accountability or responsibility for America. They can get into an car accident, kill or injure people and then run off to Mexico or south America. It happens all the time. Prosecutors know these people are the mother-of-all flight risks and try to hold them in immigration jail while liberals are working hard trying to get them released.

 

[SkyChief]

Should immigrants have a path to citizenship?

ALL immigrants (who are not criminals or hostile towards America) are offered a path to citizenship.

Should law abiding immigrants be given citizenship?

Yes, IF and WHEN they follow the established rules and process for naturalization.

 

[Cameron]

Yes. The obvious best immigration policy would be to focus on securing the border and giving those who have been here for years now, and have abided by our laws and performed useful jobs, a pathway to citizenship.

 

[CLAX1911]

Trump has recognized that undocumented immigrants are important for several industries and has backed off arresting and deporting them. I would argue that there are a lot more industries that need these workers to operate effectively.

Those immigrants who haven't committed crimes and are productively employed - should they be allowed to remain and given a path to citizenship?

There's no such thing as undocumented immigrants. Those are illegal aliens. Immigrant is a legal status and there is a pathway to citizenship for them they come here legally they apply for citizenship.

 

[multivita-man]

This is right in purely practical terms. From the US perspective, there are laws already in place to manage the use of illegal immigrants but the government does not apply the pressure there in the same way it does the migrants for obvious reasons; one being it is much easier to deport migrants than prosecute American business owners. For a long time the focus has always been at stopping the symptom but not the problem, and it's the same flawed approach we've seen with drugs, where the focus is mostly a supply driven focus but little effort at the demand problem.

Good post, and I agree. I think mass migration coincides with economic liberalization, which has been our economic model the last 4-5 decades. The neoliberal model has shipped manufacturing overseas and brought a lot of the hard labor in (often illegally), and a generation or two of Americans bettered themselves through college and training to work in services and high-skilled Information Age jobs.

It's not that Americans can't ever do the jobs that migrants do; it's that, right now, our workforce isn't prepared to take their place, and even if we committed to preparing them, I'm not sure they'd want to, because as I've said, it's not easy work. Similarly, it's not that Americans can't do the high-intensity work that H1-B visa holders do in Silicon Valley, L.A., or New York. We can, but not right now, and not on the terms that MAG-7 CEOs would insist upon, which is no work/life balance, minimal pay, no unions, limited welfare state, and very limited flexibility to move on to something that's actually better.

That's what a lot of pro-MAGA folks aren't really getting, IMO. Yes, we can bring factories, rare earths, and whatever back home (eventually). Yes, we can stop the flow of migrants over the border (eventually) through changes in policies on both the supply and demand side. But corporate America and their shareholders are going to insist that they dictate the terms, and American workers are going to flat-out ****ing hate those terms, I can assure you. That's why I don't just double down, I triple and quadruple down when I say that immigrants do the jobs that we just don't want to do. We don't want it as badly as they do.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

ALL immigrants (who are not criminals or hostile towards America) are offered a path to citizenship.



Yes, IF and WHEN they follow the established rules for naturalization.

Nope, you guys destroyed your own arguments the moment ICE began arresting legal immigrants, some even at the final interview before they are granted CITIZENSHIP or a Green Card.
Nothing you argue has any validity any longer because your heroes are even arresting native born American citizens.
At this point, anyone who has darker skin is subject to being acosted by ICE goons, which many are beginning to believe are being recruited from Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, something likely to come out in the wash pretty soon.

Your side is eagerly and giddily adopting totalitarian tactics and violating the Constitution worse than a high school star quarterback violates a prom queen.
Your side has ZERO moral standing on the argument that folks should come here legally.

 

[AZRWinger]

I much prefer we turn the country into a police state where everyone must have their papers, law enforcement is invading workplaces and homes and spend billions in order to deport 12 million people or put them in camps.

Police armed with duly authorized search warrants "invade" workplaces and homes daily, just as they did last Sunday.
It's the reaction of violent radical Leftists organized by groups like the LA Rapid Response Network that turned routine enforcement activity onto violent riots.

LOS ANGELES LAUNCHES RAPID RESPONSE NETWORK AND HOTLINE TO RESPOND TO ICE ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS

PRESS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: January 24, 2025Press Contact: Jorge-Mario Cabrera, jmcabrera@chirla.org, (562) 243-5559 LOS ANGELES LAUNCHES RAPID RESPONSE NETWORK AND HOTLINE TO RESPOND TO ICE ENFORCEMENT ACTIONSThe Los Angeles Rapid Response Network (LARRN) is one of several regional...

www.immdef.org

Illegal aliens cost the US billions in welfare schooling, health care and criminal justice. Not to mention undercutting wages and civil order. Which nation's flag is most popular in the LA chop zone? Not Old Glory.

 

[trixare4kids]

Yes. The obvious best immigration policy would be to focus on securing the border and giving those who have been here for years now, and have abided by our laws and performed useful jobs, a pathway to citizenship.

You ignore the fact that all those patiently waiting their turn in line, following the path to seek citizenship the right way shouldn't have to wait longer because you think the above group deserves a break today.

 

[Lursa]

Trump has recognized that undocumented immigrants are important for several industries and has backed off arresting and deporting them. I would argue that there are a lot more industries that need these workers to operate effectively.

Those immigrants who haven't committed crimes and are productively employed - should they be allowed to remain and given a path to citizenship?

That sounds like amnesty, as long as they dont have criminal records. Then my vote would be no.

They should start with "the path to enter the country legally". And then apply for citizenship while here legally.

A lot of the workers that come here dont want to be citizens. They are proud to be Mexican. I'm not sure why so many believe they want to be Americans. They are here looking for a better way to support their families. IMO this relationship can be and is mutually beneficial.

 

[antiquity]

There's no such thing as undocumented immigrants. Those are illegal aliens. Immigrant is a legal status and there is a pathway to citizenship for them they come here legally they apply for citizens

Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist.