Should gays be allowed to serve openly in the military?

[ngdawg]

I think this would be easy to prove... find a flaming young gay man and have him approach ten strait couples where the woman is in her eighth or so month of pregnancy... Let him proclaim, oh, the miracle of life... I would like to say a little prayer for you... moments later the gay dude tells the parents I prayed your baby would be gay... observe the reaction of the couples.

I'd assume you have done this on occasion, therefore your reporting of their reactions is true first hand knowledge.....

I think all parents love their children... but the intent was not to have a gay child... again, let's view the results from evidence above to make a determination.

My intent wasn't to have a 6 foot 14 year old, either, but, he's my kid. What's any of this have to do with anything?

How many women or openly stated gays lead Navy Seals, Special Forces elite units or Marine Corps Infantry troops?

I give up. How many?
I don't suppose it'd ever occur to you that it's the outmoded attitude that you yourself possess that prevents the promotions of certain individuals to positions considered among the more elite in the Armed Forces.
Let's look at a partial list of some of the more elite gay and lesbian officers, shall we?
SLDN Honorary Board

 

[ngdawg]

Now let's have a look at how some of our fine men and women get treated:
Monica Hill joined the United States Air Force on December 21, 1994, having won an Air Force scholarship to medical school.
For her residency, Dr. Hill worked at a civilian hospital in Columbus, Ohio. While there, she lived with her partner of fourteen years, Terri Cason, who was a nurse at the hospital.

Cason’s health deteriorated dramatically in July of 2001. In two weeks, Cason went from working at the hospital to being unable even to do household chores. Cason’s doctors first thought she had an infectious disease, and treated her with antibiotics. On July 14, 2001, Cason’s doctors changed their diagnosis. Cason had lung cancer, with additional metastatic brain lesions. That diagnosis meant that Cason had between two months and two years to live. Cason died on September 11, 2001.
Several months after her orders were cancelled, the Air Force informed Dr. Hill that discharge proceedings were pending against her based on her statement in her request for deferment that she was a lesbian. The Air Force began an investigation into Dr. Hill’s sexual orientation. During the investigation, the investigating officer suggested in hostile and accusatory tones that Dr. Hill had invented the story of Cason’s illness, and that Dr. Hill had admitted her sexual orientation solely to escape going on active duty. Dr. Hill was required to provide Cason’s death certificate as proof that she had not invented the story. Additionally, the investigating officer repeatedly asked Dr. Hill about her sexual orientation and for details of her sexual history.

The investigation concluded that Dr. Hill had made a “homosexual admission” requiring discharge under “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” and that she had made the statement for the purpose of being separated from the military. The Air Force began discharge proceedings. Dr. Hill decided to resign from the Air Force because she felt it was impossible to fight the process and that discharge was inevitable under “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Dr. Hill was honorably discharged on October 2, 2002.

Following her discharge, the Air Force began recoupment proceedings against Dr. Hill, purportedly seeking to recover the cost of her medical education.

Complete story
Or this:
David Hall joined the Air Force on March 6, 1996, following in the footsteps of his father and step-father, who each served over 20 years in the Air Force.
After basic training, Hall graduated from tech school with the second-highest score in his class and was assigned to the 27th Fighter Squadron at Langley Air Force Base in Hampton, Virginia.
In his spare time, Hall began taking classes at the University of Alaska-Anchorage, where he met and began dating fellow student Jack Glover.

Glover encouraged Hall to join the Air Force ROTC.

After receiving a strong recommendation from his active duty commander, Hall was honorably discharged as an enlisted member from the Air Force in August 2001 following his acceptance to the Air Force ROTC in May 2001. At that time, Hall had served five years and attained the rank of Staff Sergeant (E-5) with an Aircraft Armament Systems specialty.

During his active duty service, Hall received numerous awards including, the Air Force Achievement Medal, Air Force Commendation Medal, Air Force Longevity Service Award, Air Force Training Ribbon, NCO Professional Military Education Ribbon, Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, Air Force Outstanding Unit Ward, and Air Force Good Conduct Medal.
In March 2002, Hall received a coveted slot to train to be a pilot—an honor given to approximately 500 cadets nationwide each year. At the time Hall received this honor, he had the highest ranking of all the Air Force ROTC juniors in his detachment. In recognition of his talent and dedication, Hall was named a Cadet Captain and flight commander, soon advancing to the position of Operations Officer, Cadet Major, another leadership position.

In June 2002, after returning from Field Training, Hall was called in to speak to a Judge Advocate General and a Staff Sergeant, who told him that they knew of his relationship with Glover.

Hall refused to comment about his relationship with Glover, and an investigation ensued. He was disenrolled and honorably discharged from the Air Force ROTC on August 21, 2002.

At the time of his disenrollment and discharge, Hall was ranked first in a class of over one hundred cadets. He had served one year in the Air Force ROTC.
Complete Story
More here

 

[Navy Pride]

Not half as much of a kick as I get out of a Fascists trying to squeeze the political spectrum into their own narrow view of a world that doesn't really exist to anyone but themselves. But you can certainly feel good in that Fascism is the wave of the future. Within 50 years (we won't be around then) you will see the end of such useless entities as democratic republics and other forms free thinking governments.

Why do you insist on calling people names and insulting them because they have a different opinion.....And you liberals call us the intolerant ones....

 

[Navy Pride]

This coming from the guy that thinks anyone left of Rush Limbaugh is a "tree hugger."

Now THAT's funny.

I notice you list yourself as a moderate when by your posts your one of the biggest liberals in DP.............

 

[Navy Pride]

The biggest point I think people are missing in this debate is that the family members of straight soldiers get a lot of advantages that gay soldiers families or partners are not allowed.
Spouses receive medical care, commissary(grocery store) and AFFES privileges which is tax free and much cheaper then living on the economy. Spouses have access to support services, to the MWR (Morale welfare and recreation) services. Spouses can live on base, can have their furnishings moved are welcomed and given tours (if they chose to). If a loved one is injured , spouses are informed and have the right to be there with their loved one, if their loved one dies they have a say in the funeral arrangements and receive a monies form insurance and all that.
Gay partners do not have these rights though their partners do have the right to serve, if they keep quiet about their partner and that is plain out discrimination and it's wrong.

That is a whole new thread my friend..........Its called gay marriage....

 

[Inuyasha]

Why do you insist on calling people names and insulting them because they have a different opinion.....And you liberals call us the intolerant ones....

I have not called you any names ... however if the shoe fits....
You seem to have me confused with yourself.


If it's the "Fascist" thing that bother you then it is you who is casting stones here. I have made it clear that a honest Fascist is far more valuable than a dishonest neoconservative. I see nothing wrong with being a fascist if you do not put people down because in your words "they are not like thinkers".

This statement is however, quite telling about you and I didn't make it.
post 728
http://www.debatepolitics.com/dunge...hat-year-award-nominations-73.html#post458561

 

[Navy Pride]

I have not called you any names ... however if the shoe fits....
You seem to have me confused with yourself.


If it's the "Fascist" thing that bother you then it is you who is casting stones here. I have made it clear that a honest Fascist is far more valuable than a dishonest neoconservative. I see nothing wrong with being a fascist if you do not put people down because in your words "they are not like thinkers".

This statement is however, quite telling about you and I didn't make it.
post 728
http://www.debatepolitics.com/dunge...hat-year-award-nominations-73.html#post458561

Calling a person a fascist is and insult and when you do it because you are losing the debate of the thread is even worse.........I take offense to it......I am a very conservative person but am no fascist and like I said in previous posts you would never call me one to my face.............Its a shame that is all you have is name calling and insults..............

 

[Inuyasha]

Calling a person a fascist is and insult and when you do it because you are losing the debate of the thread is even worse.........I take offense to it......I am a very conservative person but am no fascist and like I said in previous posts you would never call me one to my face.............Its a shame that is all you have is name calling and insults..............

To my way of thinking calling a person a Fascist is NOT an insult. Fascism is as legitimate as is neoconservatism or liberalism. You just have a jaded view of what the philosophy of modern Fascism is all about. You expressions places much closer to that ideology than traditional American conservatism. if you take it as an insult then the evil is in the eye of the beholder.

BTW there is no winning or losing in this exchange because I have put nothing in play that would indicate, require or anything else about winning or losing. I will admit that I have avoided answering you on a few things... I wonder why I did that?

 

[disneydude]

Calling a person a fascist is and insult and when you do it because you are losing the debate of the thread is even worse.........I take offense to it......I am a very conservative person but am no fascist and like I said in previous posts you would never call me one to my face.............Its a shame that is all you have is name calling and insults..............

Navy isn't really a facist....he's just a hardcore neo-con. Oh Navy....I'd be happy to say that to your face....

 

[Caine]

My intent wasn't to have a 6 foot 14 year old, either, but, he's my kid. What's any of this have to do with anything?

You wouldn't happen to be galenrox's momma would you??? :rofl
http://www.debatepolitics.com/458587-post1293.html

 

[Inuyasha]

Navy isn't really a facist....he's just a hardcore neo-con.

You are right. I never called him a fascist I just said that much of his concept seemed a lot closer to that ideology of that than it is to traditional American conservatism. So he can't whine about that. Two: I still know many people who belong to the Falange both in America and elsewhere. They do not consider being called a Fascist an insult so as i said the evil is in the eye or perhaps better stated," in the ear of the behearer".

 

[Navy Pride]

Navy isn't really a facist....he's just a hardcore neo-con. Oh Navy....I'd be happy to say that to your face....

And you would be wearing my size 12 boot up your liberal ***......:lol:

 

[disneydude]

And you would be wearing my size 12 boot up your liberal ***......:lol:

Why do you run from your principles Navy? You sling the term "Liberal" around like its a bad thing....I wear it as a badge of honor...because I am comfortable in my beliefs and who I am.
Why do you try to couch yourself as a "traditional conservative"...rather than the neo-con that you are. Be proud of who you are. Be proud of your neo-con principles if they are as important to you as you claim. Don't run from them.

As far as your boot....I don't think that you could....but it would be funny to watcha try.

 

[Navy Pride]

Why do you run from your principles Navy? You sling the term "Liberal" around like its a bad thing....I wear it as a badge of honor...because I am comfortable in my beliefs and who I am.
Why do you try to couch yourself as a "traditional conservative"...rather than the neo-con that you are. Be proud of who you are. Be proud of your neo-con principles if they are as important to you as you claim. Don't run from them.

As far as your boot....I don't think that you could....but it would be funny to watcha try.

Yeah right that is why half of the liberals in DP list theirselves as moderates or Independents when they are really whacked out liberals......

 

[disneydude]

Yeah right that is why half of the liberals in DP list theirselves as moderates or Independents when they are really whacked out liberals......

Can only speak for myself......what about you?

 

[Willow]

That is a whole new thread my friend..........Its called gay marriage...

But fiancees are accorded privileges as well. they can talk to the support groups volunteer with the family groups, go to balls and all manners of social stuff they are involved, and then in serious times like a death or critical injury are included and supported. Gay partners have no support no right to social niceties no inclusion in case of an death or injury and that is really sad in this day and age.

 

[RightinNYC]

Why do you run from your principles Navy? You sling the term "Liberal" around like its a bad thing....I wear it as a badge of honor...because I am comfortable in my beliefs and who I am.
Why do you try to couch yourself as a "traditional conservative"...rather than the neo-con that you are. Be proud of who you are. Be proud of your neo-con principles if they are as important to you as you claim. Don't run from them.

As far as your boot....I don't think that you could....but it would be funny to watcha try.

Listen, if you guys want to play patty cake, that's fine, go ahead.

But christ, for your own sake, at least learn what "Neo-con" means. You only make yourself look foolish by calling Navy a neo-con.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I think this would be easy to prove... find a flaming young gay man and have him approach ten strait couples where the woman is in her eighth or so month of pregnancy... Let him proclaim, oh, the miracle of life... I would like to say a little prayer for you... moments later the gay dude tells the parents I prayed your baby would be gay... observe the reaction of the couples.

Anecdotal, hypothetical, and therfore, irrelevant to the concept of 'evidence'. Your example is evidence of a rude person, regardless of sexual orientation, who has no social skills. The couples' reactions to him would be based on that...not his sexual orientation.

I think all parents love their children... but the intent was not to have a gay child... again, let's view the results from evidence above to make a determination.

Since your 'evidence' is not, this is irrelevant.

Again, I would refer to the above reactions from normal married couples to decide how normal persons view the unintended result.

Same as I posted above.

How many women or openly stated gays lead Navy Seals, Special Forces elite units or Marine Corps Infantry troops?

More logical fallacies. You have yet to prove that the reason this has not occurred is because of their inability. This opening shows that there is no connection in your position.

Actually, I was offering diamonds here... I offered a means for gays to be represented by in congress to obtain their desired rights without the need to bother the Boy Scouts, the church and other Hollywood adventures in gay brainwashing... The theory is the same theory that allowed Prez Bush to restart hostilities with Iraq... Politicians are elected by super minorities of a political party and they fear the unknown like the stock market fears the unknown... if the majority supports the Prez as they did leading up to war then the politician must represent the majority or could be put out of office by those who in the past didn't vote. If a sate has 20 million adult citizens and a survey says 90% support the prez then the two million that elected the politician have to bite the bullet as the politician follows the herd. Thus, if each gay person went to every member of their family and got signatures in support, let's say gay in the military and these letters were sent to congress the congress would be in fear of saying no to so many possible people that could fire them should they make the wrong choice.

Read my previous post, again, for why your premise, here is a Non Sequitur logical fallacy. You have yet to show any evidence contrary to that.

 

[SpooK]

Listen, if you guys want to play patty cake, that's fine, go ahead.

But christ, for your own sake, at least learn what "Neo-con" means. You only make yourself look foolish by calling Navy a neo-con.

Patty cake, patty cake, baker's pan, make me a cake as fast as you can. pat it, roll it, mark it with a B and put it in the over for baby and me.

:2rofll: :2rofll: :lamo :lamo I love patty cake.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Well now. Can we say that the side supporting DADT won the debate? The other side seems to have run out of arguments and are now spending their time directing personal attacks at Navy. That sure looks like a white flag to me.

 

[Thinker]

Yeah right that is why half of the liberals in DP list theirselves as moderates or Independents when they are really whacked out liberals......

You are the one forever claiming that your frequent epithet "liberal" is not
intended as an insult. Now that you are explicitly qulifying it with "whacked out"
it must be obvious to everyone that you have always meant it as an insult.
Personally, I do not care what you call me; I would just prefer you to be honest
about your intentions.

 

[Caine]

Well now. Can we say that the side supporting DADT won the debate? The other side seems to have run out of arguments and are now spending their time directing personal attacks at Navy. That sure looks like a white flag to me.

Its called...

I'm tired of beating the dead horse.

Just because you are more willing to say the same things over and over and over, doesn't make your arguments more valid.

I have still yet to see anyone who gives a good reason that isn't based off of "im uncomfortable around gays, so they can't serve".

Because 27% (i think that was the number in RightAtNYU's poll) of the Service Members are not comfortable, it is no reason to discriminate against other people for being who they are. Its ridiculous to say otherwise, and in fact, I have not heard anything worthy of comparison yet.

I mean... to base it solely on "Hmph! Its unfair!!!" or "I don't want a gay staring at me and trying to rape me in the shower! hmPh!" Is damned near retarded. Because...
A. Showering is only 5-10mins of the day.
B. Nowhere close to everyone even has to share showers (Yes you navy turds, I know you do on your little boats, but what did I just say?)


Other than that, Its about people not being comfortable around days because they have a dislike for gay folks. That sort of attitude is not a mature one and shouldn't be encouraged, and we certainly shouldn't enforce policy based upon it.

So..... Unless you have something new Im done here.

 

[DeeJayH]

because 27% (i think that was the number in RightAtNYU's poll) of the Service Members are not comfortable, it is no reason to discriminate against other people for being who they are. Its ridiculous to say otherwise, and in fact, I have not heard anything worthy of comparison yet.

and yet dont many people keep saying the military is stretched too thin
and now you want to possibly cause a mass exodus of trained soldiers to appease gay people?
an exodus of more people than the number of gays who would be willing to serve

or is there no place for the reality of the situation in your ideals?

 

[Caine]

and yet dont many people keep saying the military is stretched too thin
and now you want to possibly cause a mass exodus of trained soldiers to appease gay people?

If people lose the desire to serve and protect our great nation because they have to work with a few (and yes, I am acknowledging that they are few in number) gay people, than I don't want them protecting my freedoms in the first place. If someone who was a career soldier/sailor decided not to re-enlist or re-commission or whatever due to the fact that gays were serving, than that speaks highly of their patriotism and dedication to duty (hint: they didn't have any).

or is there no place for the reality of the situation in your ideals?

Was there a point to this question? Would it even make a difference if I answered it? (which Im not).

 

[Navy Pride]

Can only speak for myself......what about you?

Yours say lean Liberal, I would say very liberal....Mine says very Conservative and that is what I am in fact I can not think of one political issue I am Liberal on......