Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or....

[Kelzie]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

O.K. I will:

I see a bunch of individuals that profited. Not the government. Try again.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

I see a bunch of individuals that profited. Not the government. Try again.

From what I posted:

Thirty percent of the oil vouchers were issued to beneficiaries in Russia, including individual officials in the president’s office, the Russian
Foreign Ministry, the Russian Communist Party, members of the Russian
parliament, and the oil firms Lukoil, Gazprom, Zarubezhneft, Sibneft, Rosneft, and Tatneft.
Vladimir Zhirinovsky, the Russian Liberal Democratic Party leader, and companies associated with his party were allocated 53 million barrels.
Alexander Voloshin, chief of staff under former Russian President Boris Yeltsin, was allocated 3.9 million barrels of oil from May to December 2002.

As you said Gazprom is a nationalized industry and members of the Russian parliament personally profited from the oil for food scandal.

 

[Kelzie]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

From what I posted:

Thirty percent of the oil vouchers were issued to beneficiaries in Russia, including individual officials in the president’s office, the Russian
Foreign Ministry, the Russian Communist Party, members of the Russian
parliament, and the oil firms Lukoil, Gazprom, Zarubezhneft, Sibneft, Rosneft, and Tatneft.
Vladimir Zhirinovsky, the Russian Liberal Democratic Party leader, and companies associated with his party were allocated 53 million barrels.
Alexander Voloshin, chief of staff under former Russian President Boris Yeltsin, was allocated 3.9 million barrels of oil from May to December 2002.


As you said Gazprom is a nationalized industry.

TOT, just because it was allocated doesn't mean it was misused. Show that Gazprom exploited their allocation. The list that was given showed ALL entities that received vouchers, even those that didn't abuse it.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

TOT, just because it was allocated doesn't mean it was misused. Show that Gazprom exploited their allocation. The list that was given showed ALL entities that received vouchers, even those that didn't abuse it.

And the vouchers were the scam:

What are the details of the CIA report?

The September 30, 2004, report by Iraq weapons inspector Charles Duelfer uncovered the regime’s complicated and lucrative schemes to earn illicit funds. In a particularly egregious abuse, Saddam was found to be using secret “oil vouchers” worth millions of dollars to reward individuals and companies for helping Iraq subvert sanctions. Among the alleged recipients of the vouchers was Sevan, the program’s chief administrator. Duelfer headed the CIA team that authored the report, known as the Iraq Survey Group.
What are the latest revelations?

The UN committee’s fifth and final 623-page report released October 27, 2005, accused nearly half of the 4,500 participating companies of paying kickbacks and illegal surcharges to win lucrative contracts, and allowing Saddam Hussein to pocket $1.8 billion at the expense of Iraqis suffering under UN economic sanctions. The commission’s lead investigator, former U.S. Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volcker, stated that it was UN mismanagement and failure of the world’s most powerful nations to end corruption in the program that allowed Saddam to fill his coffers.

 

[Kelzie]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

And the vouchers were the scam:

Oh. Well than Gazprom did profit. Which should only illustrate the evils of a government owned corporation.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Oh. Well than Gazprom did profit. Which should only illustrate the evils of a government owned corporation.

It also shows that the Russian government was infact profiting from the oil for food scandal which has been my contention all along.

 

[Kelzie]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

It also shows that the Russian government was infact profiting from the oil for food scandal which has been my contention all along.

Man, fine. Let's keep this between us, huh? :mrgreen:

Though it doesn't show anything for the French or German governments, cause they don't own the corporations.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Man, fine. Let's keep this between us, huh? :mrgreen:

Though it doesn't show anything for the French or German governments, cause they don't own the corporations.

The report did implicate a former French interior minister.

 

[Kelzie]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

The report did implicate a former French interior minister.

Former. I know.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Prove it. Prove that the French, German and Russia governments made billions of dollars from the Oil for Food Scandal. Not corporations. Not corrupt politicians. The government itself.

How can a government not be corrupt when the politicians running it are?

 

[Kelzie]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

How can a government not be corrupt when the politicians running it are?

That's not my problem, or my statement. It was stated that the French and German government made billions off the scandal. That's not true. If you can prove that those governments, and not a few individuals in them, profited, feel free.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Well of course, that's true. But even during the Cold War (and to this day if I'm not mistaken) our ships crossed the oceans in "gater squares." To explain, the MEU's (Marine Expiditionary Units that involved four different types of ships to an ARG (Amphibious Readiness Group)) would travel in circles per grid square so as not to alarm our enemies. They did the same for us. It was a show that aggression is not the intent.

When we train on borders in foreign lands, the other country is frequently made aware.


*Side note, we rushed towards the Iraqi border for three weeks prior to kick off trying to provoke them. The last amassing on the border resulted in an Iraqi mortar attack on Dark Side's (3/4) position on the Kuwaiti side...."Kick off."

Sure, you're right in that for routine ops, or other non-aggressive scheduled ops it's prudent to tell your neighbor what's up, so he won't get the wrong idea and launch a pre-emptive air strike. Fine.

But diplomacy is the act of sending messages and communicating. If it's common courtesy to inform your neighbor that you're playing with dynamite in the backyard, but the a-hole neighbor's been having wild parties that have led to his guests trampling your flowers, hell, just set the damn explosives off and let them wake up the hard way. That'll send a message.

Putting US troops on the US border:

a) Doesnt' require any warning,
b) Doesnt' require Mexico's permision, by treaty.

I think we just disagree on what message we'd like to send to our (ahem!) friends to the south.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

That's not my problem, or my statement. It was stated that the French and German government made billions off the scandal. That's not true. If you can prove that those governments, and not a few individuals in them, profited, feel free.

Sorry, when someone says "corrupt goverment", the implication is that the individuals are corrupt. But, the government in France is corrupt because...

...the French government, at the behest of the french companies that accepted the oil for food bribes, agreed to veto any UN resolution in favor of a united international military strike against Iraq.

That was a corrupt act.

Hey, if the French are going to rig a figure skating contest, for free, they're clearly going to do what they need to do to put billions of francs into the french economy. Funny, Russia was in on that ice skating scandal, too. What an amazing coincidence!

 

[Kelzie]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Sorry, when someone says "corrupt goverment", the implication is that the individuals are corrupt. But, the government in France is corrupt because...

...the French government, at the behest of the french companies that accepted the oil for food bribes, agreed to veto any UN resolution in favor of a united international military strike against Iraq.

That was a corrupt act.

Hey, if the French are going to rig a figure skating contest, for free, they're clearly going to do what they need to do to put billions of francs into the french economy. Funny, Russia was in on that ice skating scandal, too. What an amazing coincidence!

Again, I have no problem with accusations of corruption. What I said though was:

What I am referring to is the corrupt French and German Governments that made billions in the oil for food program with Saddam while Iraqi babies were starving........

The governments didn't make anything. It was a few French and German corporations. That's like blaming the White House for Enron.

Thats' not true at all. The governments of France, Russia, and Germany were closely involved with the oil companies Hussein was buying off.

Besides, all governments are corrupt. It's a fact of life.

I never said that those governments acted correctly. What I said was they didn't make money. You seem to have taken issue with it, so I still invite you to prove that the French and German government made money from the Oil for Food scandal.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

I never said that those governments acted correctly. What I said was they didn't make money. You seem to have taken issue with it, so I still invite you to prove that the French and German government made money from the Oil for Food scandal.

The government didn't have to "make money" to be corrupt. It merely had to be influenced into corrupt acts by corrupt people. That's it.

I say your understanding of the concept of corruption is too narrow.

IMO the US government is "corrupt" because it's acting for the benefit of political lobbyists to ignore the present invasion crisis. I can't point to a single government agency "making money" off this crisis, but the actions of the government are corrupt because they're serving corrupt purposes, ergo, the government has been corrupted.

 

[Kelzie]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

The government didn't have to "make money" to be corrupt. It merely had to be influenced into corrupt acts by corrupt people. That's it.

I say your understanding of the concept of corruption is too narrow.

IMO the US government is "corrupt" because it's acting for the benefit of political lobbyists to ignore the present invasion crisis. I can't point to a single government agency "making money" off this crisis, but the actions of the government are corrupt because they're serving corrupt purposes, ergo, the government has been corrupted.

It would appear that you didn't read my post. I never said the governments weren't corrupt. As you have stated, and I agree with, all governments are corrupt. I specifically said that the French and German governments did not make money off of the Oil for Food scandal. Do you agree or not?

 

[DeeJayH]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

How can a government not be corrupt when the politicians running it are?

since we have corrupt politicians, just like any other govt
does that mean our govt is corrupt too?

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

What I am referring to is the corrupt French and German Governments that made billions in the oil for food program with Saddam while Iraqi babies were starving........

I do not think this is an accurate statement. Making false accusations without any facts only diminishes all of your posts, you know?

By this I mean that I post a clearly verifiable post that shows how the French government assists our government and the world with their efforts. Instead of acknowledging or mentioning my post you instead continue to post xenophobic words that are not supported by any facts, only slanderous claims.

In a debate people are creditable who post ideas supported by facts rather than posts that attack, attack, attack with zero facts to support one's argument.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

The governments didn't make anything. It was a few French and German corporations. That's like blaming the White House for Enron. :roll:

EXACTLY! You write the truth, thank you!

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Buildiong a wall....no.

Placing troops.....they should be informed. It is common international practice to notify enemy nations of a training exercise for obvious reasons. Mexico knows that it hasn't anything to worry about regarding military strike from the U.S., but common courtesy should be given that troops are mounting at their border for peaceful intentions.

Excellent post and I agree! Combine that with harsh laws that jail employers for hiring illegals and we have a chance to control the flow.

Good job!

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

As you said Gazprom is a nationalized industry and members of the Russian parliament personally profited from the oil for food scandal.

No one was talking about Russia. Navy Pride accused France and Germany's governments of being directly involved in the Oil for Food scam. That is patently untrue and has nothing to do with Russia.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by 26X Champs:
No one was talking about Russia. Navy Pride accused France and Germany's governments of being directly involved in the Oil for Food scam. That is patently untrue and has nothing to do with Russia.

Hey Champs, welcome back! Hope your ready to kick some neocon a.s.s.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by Trajan Octavian Titus
As you said Gazprom is a nationalized industry and members of the Russian parliament personally profited from the oil for food scandal.

We knew for years what was going on with OFF and said nothing.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by Scarecrow Akhbar
No one that remembers the Berlin Wall can make the mistake you're making.

That's all.

And what mistake is that? That they're actually two different things?

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by The Mark:
Secondly, your use of the term "iron curtain".

The iron curtain was a term used to describe the boundary between soviet-controlled Europe and the rest of Europe during the cold war period. A much longer border than the one between the USA and Mexico.

Also, the "iron curtain" was accompanied by all the restrictions that came with being part of the Soviet Union. This proposed wall between the USA and Mexico would just restrict illegal entrance.

I don't see any god-damn difference. Both are stupid and supported by intolerant scared little babies that have a control fetish.

The Berlin wall was constructed to stop western influence in the east bloc. This wall is to stop undocumented workers affect on our work force.

When the wall is constructed, are we going to rip that plaque off the Statue of Liberty? At that point it will be moot, right?