Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or....

[jfuh]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Being whether or not the poll was stated as if we "should" consult them the answer is obviously no. Unless that wall is going to fall onto the other countries territory. However It would be a neighborly and diplomatic act to consult them.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Should a country consult with neighboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Do you think people who murder soccer players for wearing shorts actually give two shits about our arrogance?

Here is a link to animals murdering soccer players for wearing shorts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5020804.stm

I do not understand your point? How many Americans kill each other every year for a pair of Jordans etc.? It is inane to suggest that random acts of violence in another country define that country anymore than equally random acts of violence in the USA. It's such a weak argument that in reality it underscores the ridiculousness of xenophobia which I believe is behind examples such as you presented.

I say 10-12 million instead of just 12 million because there might be 1-2 million illegals from other countries besides Mexico.

You're not speaking with facts. I tried to Google a by country breakdown of undocumented aliens in the USA and came up with nothing specific. That tells me that you're simply picking random numbers and using them as a scare tactic to support your point of view. That is not debating, that is pandering.

How is putting a wall,fence or placing military on our border acting like a bully/brutes and why would be it Mexico's business what we do on our side of the border?

Who is Mas Macho? I'm sorry that some of you are unable to work a diplomatic solution rather than a testosterone "solution."

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Should a country consult with neighboring countries when building a fence,wall or

You're not speaking with facts. I tried to Google a by country breakdown of undocumented aliens in the USA and came up with nothing specific. That tells me that you're simply picking random numbers and using them as a scare tactic to support your point of view. That is not debating, that is pandering.

The Illegal Alien Problem

The INS estimated that there were 7 million illegal aliens residing in the United States in January 2000. According to INS, 69% of this unauthorized immigrant population was from Mexico. (USINS, 2003) However, the top 15 sending countries accounted for 89% of the total illegal alien population and included Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Brazil, Haiti, India, Peru, Korea, and Canada. This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border and that they fall under the jurisdiction of the investigations section (interior enforcement), not the Border Patrol. These statistics further indicate that the illegal alien problem is both a border and an interior enforcement problem. More importantly, the interior problem seems to be far greater than the border problem. However, the INS never placed much emphasis on interior enforcement. As a matter of fact, there is very little interior enforcement of the immigration laws going on. Interior enforcement lags behind all other functions of the agency and the INS clearly prioritized the Border Patrol function.

69% of the invaders are from Mexico (2001),

That means, assuming everything remained constant, that a few million dollars worth of land mines along the souther border would reduce the invasion problem by about 70%. Do the same to the Canadian border, and start doing sensible things about the airports and the coast lines, and the problem of illegal sneakers would be under control.

Once the criminal hiring them are jailed, the problem will be mostly gone.

Gimme a year, I'll fix everything. I don't have any vested political interests to sell my country out for, unlike any nameable Democrat or Republican.

 

[Deegan]

NO, just look at what someone has to go through to live and operate in Mexico, you would really be amazed....really you would.:shock:

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Christian Science Monitor: Illegal immigrants in the US: How many are there?

Based on the national census in 2000, the US Census Bureau puts the estimate of illegal immigrants at 8.7 million. As of 2003, the US Citizenship and Immigration Services put the number at 7 million. Since then, United States immigration officials have said the number has grown by as much as 500,000 a year

But the CSM itself says that, sensibly enough, the invaders tend avoid filling out census questionnaires. So the figure was 8.7 megainvaders as of 2000. That's a flat number without any consideration of the questionaire evading invaders.

There may be as many as 20 million illegal immigrants in the US today - more than twice the official Census Bureau estimate, according to Bear Stearns researchers Robert Justich and Betty Ng.

They base this on services consumed, etc.

Frankly, the government is deliberately underestimating the number of invaders because if the true value was known and acknowledged, neither party could get away with this amnesty crap they're forcing on us now.

At a rough guess, estimate that half of the invaders didn't respond to the census. That means that in 2000 there were more like 16 million invaders in the country.

In the five full years since the census, half of about 3,000,000 illegal invaders a year get by the border patrol. That's 1.5 megainvaders per year for five years, or 7.5 megainvaders.

Adding the 16 megainvaders of the census, and the 7.5 megainvaders added since, and you're talking about 23 megainvaders. The 20 megainvader number quoted above seems a reasonable figure, albeit a bit low.

They'll be coming soon to a McDonald's near you.

 

[Kelzie]

Re: Should a country consult with neighboring countries when building a fence,wall or

69% of the invaders are from Mexico (2001),

That means, assuming everything remained constant, that a few million dollars worth of land mines along the souther border would reduce the invasion problem by about 70%. Do the same to the Canadian border, and start doing sensible things about the airports and the coast lines, and the problem of illegal sneakers would be under control.

Once the criminal hiring them are jailed, the problem will be mostly gone.

Gimme a year, I'll fix everything. I don't have any vested political interests to sell my country out for, unlike any nameable Democrat or Republican.

Hey I'm all for a wall. Don't get me wrong. But land minds seem a little...barbaric/cruel/sadistic. Take your pick.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Should a country consult with neighboring countries when building a fence,wall or

69% of the invaders are from Mexico (2001)

The Illegal Alien Problem

The INS estimated that there were 7 million illegal aliens residing in the United States in January 2000. According to INS, 69% of this unauthorized immigrant population was from Mexico. (USINS, 2003) However, the top 15 sending countries accounted for 89% of the total illegal alien populationand included Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, Colombia, Honduras, China, Ecuador, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Brazil, Haiti, India, Peru, Korea, and Canada. This means that a significant number of illegal aliens entered the United States through other than the Mexico-US border

Did you even read what you posted? See what I highlighted? You previously wrote that 10-12 Million undocumented aliens were from Mexico! Even if there are 12 million 69% is less than 8.3 million which means you MISLED all of us by 50%! That's quite a stretch even for you!

You want to solve the problem WITHOUT a wall? I know how! You crack down on all the US businesses by fining and jailing the business owners...OH, but wait that would mean Bush and the Republicans cracking down on the people contributing big bucks to their campaigns! Lord knows you don't want to put them in jail! It's so much easier to be XENOPHOBIC and MACHO, now isn't it?

Once the criminal hiring them are jailed, the problem will be mostly gone.

See? You and I agree on this! The problem is that YOUR party does not and will not actually solve the problem. A wall is bullshit. You wrote it right, jail the employers and the problem goes away...

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Should a country consult with neighboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Hey I'm all for a wall. Don't get me wrong. But land minds seem a little...barbaric/cruel/sadistic. Take your pick.

You didn't mention cheaper, more effective, or emphatic.

It wouldn't take much. What I'd recommend doing in addition to mining the border is posting signs along the border informing them of the existence of land mines (and that would mean we wouldn't need to mine the whole border, either), and get a Madison Avenue company to make some ads showing some people getting blown up then then interviewing some "survivors" expressing their wishes that they'd never tried to break the law.

It's amazing how fake things can look so real these days. We don't even have to blow up any pigs or cows in a field to make the point. Then we have have airplanes very visibly dropping something, set off the occasional explosive, and the majority of the invaders will turn around and go home. The hard-core ones we can capture and ship off to Afghanistan. Prisons are much cheaper to run, there.

 

[FallingPianos]

Re: Should a country consult with neighboring countries when building a fence,wall or

See? You and I agree on this! The problem is that YOUR party does not and will not actually solve the problem. A wall is bullshit. You wrote it right, jail the employers and the problem goes away...

this of course will either require building a lot more jails, or freeing a lot of convicts.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Should a country consult with neighboring countries when building a fence,wall or

this of course will either require building a lot more jails, or freeing a lot of convicts.

With the money we'll save on "The Wall" we can build whatever is needed...or maybe we can "deport" them to Mexico too! :rofl

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Should a country consult with neighboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Did you even read what you posted? See what I highlighted? You previously wrote that 10-12 Million undocumented aliens were from Mexico! Even if there are 12 million 69% is less than 8.3 million which means you MISLED all of us by 50%! That's quite a stretch even for you!

One can imagine that I read what I posted. Since you quoted it blindly, can we be sure you read what I posted? After I posted the quote, I included some revised numbers. Go crunch'em.

You want to solve the problem WITHOUT a wall?

Sure, why spend money on a physical barrier when psychological barriers are so much stronger? Mine the border. Kill people entering illegally. Use drone aircraft, remotely operated camera sighted machine guns to shoot others, use helicopters and motion sensors to arrest the rest, and the economics of crossing into the US get far more expensive for the peasant Mexican, putting it out of the reach of most of them.

I know how! You crack down on all the US businesses by fining and jailing the business owners...OH, but wait that would mean Bush and the Republicans cracking down on the people contributing big bucks to their campaigns!

You know, the government spent 5.3 billion dollars over a decade to develope a cure for partisan blindness. It consists of two steps. You pull your head out of your ***. Then you wipe your eyes.

The problem with the border is a bi-partisan bit of treason by both parties. And, since I'm not a Republican anyway, what do I care which party does the good deed?

Lord knows you don't want to put them in jail! It's so much easier to be XENOPHOBIC and MACHO, now isn't it?

I wouldn't know. I'm presenting rational answers to problems presented me. Since the problem involves both supply and demand, logic dictates that both supply and demand be addressed in the solution.

What the Democrats will hate most are these next lines:

1) The employers hire illegals because the domestic supply of US labor will not work for low wages. The treatment for this comes in two parts:

a) The government has to stop subsidizing our indolent indigents. End all welfare payments to all persons immediately to increase incentive for our indolent indigents to find work. This will increase the demand for unskilled jobs. Goodness knows, we've been producing unskilled labor by the bushel for decades. They're called "high school graduates". Give'em some incentive to find work.

b) we have to eliminate the minimum wage, this only serves to convince our indolent indigents that they should have minimum standards for some reason. It's a truly bizarre concept for a free country to hold.

Oh, and if our indolent indigents won't work for the wages the farmer/restauranteur wants to pay, then the tomatoes rot in the field and the dishes don't get washed. There's absolutely NO REASON WHATSOEVER to import unskilled labor when so many people in this country are busy voting for Democrats and Republicans. Clearly there's no shortage of people without skills here.

See? You and I agree on this! The problem is that YOUR party does not and will not actually solve the problem. A wall is bullshit. You wrote it right, jail the employers and the problem goes away...[/QUOTE]

 

[Navy Pride]

Great attitude, you guys. No wonder America is so hated these days.

Can you see America in 20 years, when God forbid, Jenna Bush is president?

"Ms. Bush...TEAR DOWN THIS WALL!"

Sound familiar?

Why are you so concerned about what the corrupt French and Germans think.........When they need our help again they will come running...


Can you possibly be comparing us to the Soviet Union? Get real...........we are building a wall to keep illegals out.........The Soviets built the wall in Berlin to keep people in.....huge difference............

 

[afr0byte]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Why are you so concerned about what the corrupt French and Germans think.........

Corrupt? Hah, more like different cultures.

 

[earthworm]

No more then I should have to consult with my neighbor before building a fence on my property. Unless my neighbor is on the deed to my property, they have no authority and thus, no say.

Thus the good neighbor policy is scrapped. Whole nations, on either side, are acting as poorly reared children.
Respect is the key word.
Things that people and nations did 100, even 5,000 years ago are one thing - we are to learn from these events.
Some have not...

Jerry, you must live some place without any building codes - hard to imagine in this day and age..

 

[Kelzie]

Re: Should a country consult with neighboring countries when building a fence,wall or

You didn't mention cheaper, more effective, or emphatic.

It wouldn't take much. What I'd recommend doing in addition to mining the border is posting signs along the border informing them of the existence of land mines (and that would mean we wouldn't need to mine the whole border, either), and get a Madison Avenue company to make some ads showing some people getting blown up then then interviewing some "survivors" expressing their wishes that they'd never tried to break the law.

It's amazing how fake things can look so real these days. We don't even have to blow up any pigs or cows in a field to make the point. Then we have have airplanes very visibly dropping something, set off the occasional explosive, and the majority of the invaders will turn around and go home. The hard-core ones we can capture and ship off to Afghanistan. Prisons are much cheaper to run, there.

Oh I get it. You're joking. It's very funny.

 

[LeftyHenry]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

"Globalist" = "Citizen of the World", as in New World Order.

It's biblical prophecy unfolding right before our eyes.

eh?? what?

If everyone hates America, then why are so many trying to get in, I wonder.

When did I say that. People will go wherever they won't starve to death. I don't like the idea of starvation, do you?

If they are coming here for peace and prosperity, which is obviously absent in their country of origin, then it makes perfect since to secure our borders so as to protect that peace and prosperity.

No because we're more efficient than they are.

Sure, the immigration process is in need of some streamlining. I'll not argue with anyone there. However, rather than create a new "Guest worker program" (read as "amnesty for illegal aliens"), we should use the "guest worker program" that is already in place: Work Visas.

here's a rough plan off the top of my head

1.) allow anyone who wishes to make an honest hardworking living into the nation

2.) give them greencards in exchange for a year of community service, or something along the lines, and the ability to speak english.

3.) loans with interest will be given to people who wish to learn english

4.) crack down on employers who pay illegal wages

5.) enforce tax laws

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Should a country consult with neighboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Oh I get it. You're joking. It's very funny.

No. I'm perfectly serious in suggesting that real land mines, laid in a strip a thousand yards wide, along the length of the border would be one of the most effective deterents to invasion possible and I'd fully support any implementation of this plan.

I also know what spineless wonders politicians are and what would likely arise...fake land mines, a PR campaign, and undercover leakage of secret documents showing where the safe zones are.

Don't ever think I'm joking when it comes to defending this country from our enemies. I'm a crazy oxygen deprived ex-submariner, after all.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

here's a rough plan off the top of my head

1.) allow anyone who wishes to make an honest hardworking living into the nation

Here's a better plan:

Allow people in who possess skills we have a distinct shortage of. "Distinct shortage" means not enough people, not "not enough people willing to work for the low wages the employer wants to get away with".

The nation needs engineers. Engineers should be paid whatever incentives it takes to get them into the jobs needing doing. When it can be demonstrated that there's not enough engineers, then, and only then, does it make sense to import engineers from elsewhere.

The nation will never have a shortage of people with the skills needed to fill strawberry picking and dishwashing positions (we do have public schools),therefore, we should never have to consider importing them from anywhere else.

2.) give them greencards in exchange for a year of community service, or something along the lines, and the ability to speak english.

Provide temporary work visas to those immigrants with jobs we need filling. Establish a reasonable grade of visas to fit the job's expected duration, etc. Citizenship will only be offered for certain categories of job visa, and any violation of visa status means immediate permanent deportation to the nation of origin without all the fuss of a full blown trial. Once apprehended on visa violation charges, these people will not be permitted to go on bail.

Nothing's "given", all is earned in a free society.

3.) loans with interest will be given to people who wish to learn english.

Screw that. Unless the job the applicant is a national security "he's the only guy that can do it job", they should be able to speak and read english before coming in the door.

4.) crack down on employers who pay illegal wages

Get rid of wage laws. They're an improper manifestation of the socialist infestation of our government, and have no place in a free society.

5.) enforce tax laws

Fine, cut taxes, while they're at it.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Here's a word that the left loves alot: "soveriegnty," it is nonones bussiness what we or Israel does on our and their own territory. Remember these are not walls to keep people in like the Berlin wall they are walls to keep people out.

 

[Billo_Really]

I don't see how anyone that remembers the Berlin Wall could be in favor of erecting an "iron curtain" between the US and Mexico.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I don't see how anyone that remembers the Berlin Wall could be in favor of erecting an "iron curtain" between the US and Mexico.

Berlin wall kept people in this wall would keep people out that's a huge difference.

 

[26 X World Champs]

Re: Should a country consult with nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or

Why are you so concerned about what the corrupt French and Germans think.When they need our help again they will come running.

Corrupt? Back this false stement up with truth, please?

Do you know what a Xenophobe is?

A person unduly fearful or contemptuous of that which is foreign, especially of strangers or foreign peoples.

Sounds to me like a lot of Conservatives & Rrepbulicans, especially in this forum.

:alert :alert :alert

France provides the US CIA with excellent information. Perhaps some of you need to start reading more and listening less to Fox News Channel? For example (edited by me to keep your attention span):

Help From France Key In Covert Operations
Paris's 'Alliance Base' Targets Terrorists

By Dana Priest
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, July 3, 2005; Page A01

John E. McLaughlin, the former acting CIA director who retired recently after a 32-year career, described the relationship between the CIA and its French counterparts as "one of the best in the world. What they are willing to contribute is extraordinarily valuable." (snip)

The rarely discussed Langley-Paris connection also belies the public portrayal of acrimony between the two countries that erupted over the invasion of Iraq. Within the Bush administration, the discord was amplified by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, who has claimed the lead role in the administration's "global war on terrorism" and has sought to give the military more of a part in it.

But even as Rumsfeld was criticizing France in early 2003 for not doing its share in fighting terrorism, his U.S. Special Operations Command was finalizing a secret arrangement to put 200 French special forces under U.S. command in Afghanistan. Beginning in July 2003, its commanders have worked side by side there with U.S. commanders and CIA and National Security Agency representatives.

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/02/AR2005070201361.html

This is but one example of how France helps the USA. People who write idioticly xenophobic statements about France or Germany do not know what they're talking about or they're not telling the truth to further the point of view.

I like to post FACTS with a Democratic bent, but facts none the less. Calling France or Germany "corrupt" as a sweeping generalization of the country, it's people and it's government is in five simple letters WRONG.

:stop:

 

[The Mark]

I don't see how anyone that remembers the Berlin Wall could be in favor of erecting an "iron curtain" between the US and Mexico.

Firstly, the comparison is incorrect.

There is no relation between the two walls, other than the fact that both are.....a wall.

Examples:

The Berlin Wall was built for the purpose of keeping people who lived in East Berlin from leaving for West Berlin.

This proposed wall on the border between the USA and Mexico would be built for the purpose of keeping people who live in Mexico from entering the USA without going through the proper process.

The Berlin wall was built without the majority consent of the people in whose country it was built.

The proposed wall on the border between the USA and Mexico would be built with the majority consent of the people in whose country it was built.

Secondly, your use of the term "iron curtain".

The iron curtain was a term used to describe the boundary between soviet-controlled Europe and the rest of Europe during the cold war period. A much longer border than the one between the USA and Mexico.

Also, the "iron curtain" was accompanied by all the restrictions that came with being part of the Soviet Union. This proposed wall between the USA and Mexico would just restrict illegal entrance.

 

[Hoot]

I'm an intelligent person.

Please...if you want to start another debate thread, create another topic under this heading.

Personally, the way you malign everyone's comments as "ignorant," who happens to have a different point of view, I think your self evaluation is over-inflated. Certainly, your social graces have been seriously neglected.

 

[Goobieman]

Should a country consult nieghboring countries when building a fence,wall or placing military on it's side of the border and why?

There's this thing called "sovereignty".

This means you have the right to put a fence on your border, etc, and it means that people/states on the other side of that border have no standing to complain.