Remember Ruby Ridge

[tech30528]

Another person that dont read. I never said I agreed with or justified the governments actions that day. But the fact remains, Weaver got the ball rolling at the start.
He knew what he was doing was wrong.
Any time you break the law, no matter how insignificant. Bad **** can spiral out of control.

I'm not attacking you or your position. But you have stated that he had it coming, I was just asking how far down the list of non violent crimes you felt a crime could be to justify the killing of your family.

 

[CRUE CAB]

It's a bit ambitious and pretty arrogant of the federal government to be afraid of those who believe in an apocalypse isn't it? The apocalypse is the end of the WORLD, not the federal government. Unless of course, the federal government fancies itself the world government.

Yea, that would be great if thats why the ATF was there. But it was not.
But many people with those kind of beliefs that the "end is near" do and say weird things that some times attract the wrong attention.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I'm not attacking you or your position. But you have stated that he had it coming, I was just asking how far down the list of non violent crimes you felt a crime could be to justify the killing of your family.

Let me ask you. If you were arrested, even entrapped. What would you do?
I will assume that you would hire a lawyer or have one appointed. Would you keep abreast of when and where you court time was.
If you found out you missed your court date would you just hunker down in your cabin and wait for them to come get you?
I have yet to say that everything the ATF or any government agency did that day was right or totally legal.
I too find it heavy handed for all the lenghts the government went to. But the very first wrong/illegal thing was done by Weaver.
Did the cops over react? Proably, but many of them do on simple pull over for speeding or a tag light out. So no surprise there.

 

[Montecresto]

I know that when you break the law, whether its a little or alot, or a good law or a bad one. You better stay on top of things or your life can and will be impacted. Justified or not.
Settle your problems in court, not in a defiant gun battle.

Wtf is you're problem with this? Everybody here acknowledges and agrees that Randy Weaver broke the law, that he was befriended, tricked and entrapped, not withstanding, he would have handled it in court had he had an opportunity!! He was sent an incorrect court date, regardless if it was a typo as you suggest or deliberate as his attorney believes, he received the wrong court date, one later than the actual. Had a sheriffs deputy went to his house with the warrant, knocked on the front door to serve it, (you see how civil that is) Randy could have presented his letter with a court date still future. He may still have been arrested, but he certainly could not have been charged with failure to appear. But no, oh no, they couldn't do that, they had to roll through town with a convoy and several dozen LEO's and approach Randy's homestead under the cover of the woods shooting their dog and initiating a firefight sense the residence had no way of knowing from whom they were under attack. The government made the wrong call, they lost a subsequent court battle and were ordered to pay restitution to the surviving family members. STOP.......defending out of control law enforcement!

 

[Montecresto]

Let me ask you. If you were arrested, even entrapped. What would you do?
I will assume that you would hire a lawyer or have one appointed. Would you keep abreast of when and where you court time was.
If you found out you missed your court date would you just hunker down in your cabin and wait for them to come get you?
I have yet to say that everything the ATF or any government agency did that day was right or totally legal.
I too find it heavy handed for all the lenghts the government went to. But the very first wrong/illegal thing was done by Weaver.
Did the cops over react? Proably, but many of them do on simple pull over for speeding or a tag light out. So no surprise there.

You just refuse to listen, you have your meme and your sticking to it, fine. But Randy Weaver received a court date in the mail and would have shown up on that date. But then like I said, you won't listen.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Wtf is you're problem with this? Everybody here acknowledges and agrees that Randy Weaver broke the law, that he was befriended, tricked and entrapped, not withstanding, he would have handled it in court had he had an opportunity!! He was sent an incorrect court date, regardless if it was a typo as you suggest or deliberate as his attorney believes, he received the wrong court date, one later than the actual. Had a sheriffs deputy went to his house with the warrant, knocked on the front door to serve it, (you see how civil that is) Randy could have presented his letter with a court date still future. He may still have been arrested, but he certainly could not have been charged with failure to appear. But no, oh no, they couldn't do that, they had to roll through town with a convoy and several dozen LEO's and approach Randy's homestead under the cover of the woods shooting their dog and initiating a firefight sense the residence had no way of knowing from whom they were under attack. The government made the wrong call, they lost a subsequent court battle and were ordered to pay restitution to the surviving family members. STOP.......defending out of control law enforcement!

Quote me on defending "out of control" law enforcement.
I said, once you put yourself on the wrong side of the law. Bad things can come of it. Including some in law enforcement over reaching, over reacting and generally blowings way out of porportion.
But it was a gun type charge to begin with, usually that puts any agency on higher alert when it comes to serving warrants. They usually go in heavier and want to control the situation from the drop.
Why? Because they dont want you to have an opportunity to get to a gun and start firing. Its kind of SOP when guns are involved.
Its not like he didnt pay a parking ticket.
So before you post again about how I am defending anything, quote me.

 

[CRUE CAB]

You just refuse to listen, you have your meme and your sticking to it, fine. But Randy Weaver received a court date in the mail and would have shown up on that date. But then like I said, you won't listen.

Weaver should have been a responsible husband and father.

 

[tech30528]

Let me ask you. If you were arrested, even entrapped. What would you do?
I will assume that you would hire a lawyer or have one appointed. Would you keep abreast of when and where you court time was.
If you found out you missed your court date would you just hunker down in your cabin and wait for them to come get you?
I have yet to say that everything the ATF or any government agency did that day was right or totally legal.
I too find it heavy handed for all the lenghts the government went to. But the very first wrong/illegal thing was done by Weaver.
Did the cops over react? Proably, but many of them do on simple pull over for speeding or a tag light out. So no surprise there.

The question remains: How severe a non violent crime justifies the murder of your family members? This was not entirely a police operation, it was a military operation. Sadly the lines of distinction between the two have been blurred in the last decade or so. Shipping in that kind of firepower and killing his family members before announcing that they were police is not a little "oopsie, we forgot," it is an abuse of power and using military assets against a citizen without a trial. It should scare the hell out of you, not cow you into accepting it because it was the government. We had some guys here in Georgia last year who granted themselves power to attack government buildings and called themselves a militia. They were caught and stood trial. They were planning to kill government employees and were attempting to produce ricin. This guy cut a metal tube too short and was assassinated along with his family members for what, a missed court date? How can you justify that? Doesn't that raise any flags for you?

 

[Montecresto]

Quote me on defending "out of control" law enforcement.
I said, once you put yourself on the wrong side of the law. Bad things can come of it. Including some in law enforcement over reaching, over reacting and generally blowings way out of porportion.
But it was a gun type charge to begin with, usually that puts any agency on higher alert when it comes to serving warrants. They usually go in heavier and want to control the situation from the drop.
Why? Because they dont want you to have an opportunity to get to a gun and start firing. Its kind of SOP when guns are involved.
Its not like he didnt pay a parking ticket.
So before you post again about how I am defending anything, quote me.

Once you put yourself on the wrong side of the law you should expect the law to come and shoot your dog, your son and your wife, shut up punk. That's what I hear from you CC. Half a dozen people here have tried to reason with you but your beyond that.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Once you put yourself on the wrong side of the law you should expect the law to come and shoot your dog, your son and your wife, shut up punk. That's what I hear from you CC. Half a dozen people here have tried to reason with you but your beyond that.

Punk? And you want reason?
I dont care how many dozens of people with a wrong headed approach try to "reason".
Weaver put himself in the bind he was in and it blew up in a bad way. Not the first and not the last time that happens.
How is that for reason, punk?

 

[CRUE CAB]

The question remains: How severe a non violent crime justifies the murder of your family members? This was not entirely a police operation, it was a military operation. Sadly the lines of distinction between the two have been blurred in the last decade or so. Shipping in that kind of firepower and killing his family members before announcing that they were police is not a little "oopsie, we forgot," it is an abuse of power and using military assets against a citizen without a trial. It should scare the hell out of you, not cow you into accepting it because it was the government. We had some guys here in Georgia last year who granted themselves power to attack government buildings and called themselves a militia. They were caught and stood trial. They were planning to kill government employees and were attempting to produce ricin. This guy cut a metal tube too short and was assassinated along with his family members for what, a missed court date? How can you justify that? Doesn't that raise any flags for you?

Where are you missing that I never justified the governments actions in the case? Seriously.
Are you blind? Are you just skimming over the posts and spinning out of control? Are you just on repeat and cant get off of it?

 

[tech30528]

Let me ask you. If you were arrested, even entrapped. What would you do?
I will assume that you would hire a lawyer or have one appointed. Would you keep abreast of when and where you court time was.
If you found out you missed your court date would you just hunker down in your cabin and wait for them to come get you?
I have yet to say that everything the ATF or any government agency did that day was right or totally legal.
I too find it heavy handed for all the lenghts the government went to. But the very first wrong/illegal thing was done by Weaver.
Did the cops over react? Proably, but many of them do on simple pull over for speeding or a tag light out. So no surprise there.

The punishment for altering a firearm outside of federal limits is not death. Nor is the penalty for missing a court date the murder of your family.

 

[Montecresto]

Punk? And you want reason?
I dont care how many dozens of people with a wrong headed approach try to "reason".
Weaver put himself in the bind he was in and it blew up in a bad way. Not the first and not the last time that happens.
How is that for reason, punk?

Read my post again, I wasn't calling you a punk, can you do that CC?

 

[CRUE CAB]

The punishment for altering a firearm outside of federal limits is not death. Nor is the penalty for missing a court date the murder of your family.

Quit being so schrill. You break the law, like the law or not, agree with the law or not. You handle it like a man.
If not, having some ATF agent looking for a promotion go in heavy and over react and shoot up the place is not out of the question.
Ever been in LE or on the other side of the bench as a defendant? Ever been to court and see how things go from bad to worse with just the wrong term or saying?
Ever seen or heard of a cop beating a woman down because she didnt get out of her car fast enough for him?
It happens, every day in America.
Knowing that, a prudent person would do everything possible to NOT break the law and to stay in front of his court appointments.

 

[Montecresto]

People. Mrs. Weaver deserved to be murdered, MURDERED because her husband missed his court date. (Never mind it's the courts fault for sending the wrong date) set up a sniper at two hundred yards and squeeze off a head shot! What men they were.

 

[CRUE CAB]

The punishment for altering a firearm outside of federal limits is not death. Nor is the penalty for missing a court date the murder of your family.

Never said it was or should be. You keep missing the whole point.

 

[CRUE CAB]

People. Mrs. Weaver deserved to be murdered, MURDERED because her husband missed his court date. (Never mind it's the courts fault for sending the wrong date) set up a sniper at two hundred yards and squeeze off a head shot! What men they were.

Stop being ignorant. Just for one second. Can you do that? I dont justify what happend, but when you run astray of the law. You never know what can go wrong.

 

[Montecresto]

Clearly you would have been all pumped up that day had you had the opportunity to participate in the caravan of law enforcement agents that rolled up that mountain to TEACH THIS GUY AND HIS FAMILY A LESSON. DON'T EVER miss a court date again! Got that Randy.

 

[d0gbreath]

Stop being ignorant. Just for one second. Can you do that? I dont justify what happend, but when you run astray of the law. You never know what can go wrong.

There need to be limits as to "what can go wrong". SWAT teams today are too common as LE resources.

The BATF started running glorified battles when they heard that they might be getting disbanded by the Feds, shortly before the Waco fiasco when they BBQ'ed 80 children.

 

[Montecresto]

Stop being ignorant. Just for one second. Can you do that? I dont justify what happend, but when you run astray of the law. You never know what can go wrong.

Stop being ignorant? Or stop disagreeing with you?

 

[CRUE CAB]

Clearly you would have been all pumped up that day had you had the opportunity to participate in the caravan of law enforcement agents that rolled up that mountain to TEACH THIS GUY AND HIS FAMILY A LESSON. DON'T EVER miss a court date again! Got that Randy.

Do you shed a little tear when you type that non sense?

 

[CRUE CAB]

There need to be limits as to "what can go wrong". SWAT teams today are too common as LE resources.

That is a whole different conversation.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Stop being ignorant? Or stop disagreeing with you?

How about just read what I posted and not make up claims that I am not putting forth.

 

[tech30528]

Never said it was or should be. You keep missing the whole point.

I think we are missing each other's points. I'm not painting you as a blind supporter of government action. But you insist that Weaver started the ball rolling and that can lead to escalation. I understand that. But a non violent weapons charge coupled with a missed court date does not typically result in a caravan of military equipment and vehicle, snipers in the woods and murdered family members. I missed a court date years ago for a seatbelt violation, ironically because I was out of state for my mother's funeral. They sent me another court date and a request for the reason I had missed the first one. I responded by phone. No hit squad. Nobody shot my dog or my wife. My point is that escalation tends to happen in steps. One side escalates, the other ramps up more, and so on back and forth until there is a conclusion. This was not an armed standoff or anything like that. Military caravans with snipers are not the norm for a missed court date even for a non violent weapons charge. They never intended to take him alive and brought enough firepower to be sure they didn't. If that doesn't raise questions for you I'm done with you. Be safe and don't miss any court dates.

 

[Wehrwolfen]

I think we are missing each other's points. I'm not painting you as a blind supporter of government action. But you insist that Weaver started the ball rolling and that can lead to escalation. I understand that. But a non violent weapons charge coupled with a missed court date does not typically result in a caravan of military equipment and vehicle, snipers in the woods and murdered family members. I missed a court date years ago for a seatbelt violation, ironically because I was out of state for my mother's funeral. They sent me another court date and a request for the reason I had missed the first one. I responded by phone. No hit squad. Nobody shot my dog or my wife. My point is that escalation tends to happen in steps. One side escalates, the other ramps up more, and so on back and forth until there is a conclusion. This was not an armed standoff or anything like that. Military caravans with snipers are not the norm for a missed court date even for a non violent weapons charge. They never intended to take him alive and brought enough firepower to be sure they didn't. If that doesn't raise questions for you I'm done with you. Be safe and don't miss any court dates.

I agree with everything you wrote. The only thing that you left out was the death of Weaver's son on the day the ATF shot the Weaver dog. Was the apprehension of Weaver that important that they kill first the dog, and his son? It was a comedy of deadly errors. All started by the ATF and the 'Confidential Informant' they sent to entrap Weaver. This was all hammered out in court and proven. That's why Weaver was assigned the award by the court. BTW the same HRT agent that shot Weaver's wife was involved in WACO incident.


Lon Horiuchi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Horiuchi
FBI Hostage Rescue Team ... Horiuchi shot and killed Vicki Weaver and also wounded her husband, ... FBI agents; Federal agents at Waco siege; Living people;