Remember Ruby Ridge

[CRUE CAB]

Funny how many of you think you are some sort of experts on this case.
Obviously you sympathize with the Weavers. Why I dont know. And your anti government senitments are running over.
But the one and only fact remains, he got himself in the trouble he was. He ran with people that were nothing but trouble and seemed to want to pick a fight with anyone he could.
For his troubles, he got the attention of the ATF. Quite a feat.
I have yet to stand up for the governments actions that day or the days leading up to it.
But when you boil it down, Weaver put himself in the position he was.
Wrong dates, entrapment, son blasting a way, dogs running out in the woods, sniper screw ups. All of it falls on his shoulders.
That said, none of us were there. Not me, not any of you. And if you google it or go to the library and look it up. You will find mulitple accounts.
So what is the truth? The truth is Weaver is to blame. Hence, I have no sympathy for him. He chose to live in a cabin in the woods with no way to communicate with the outside world, because of the impending "apocolypse" and Jesus's return.
One phone call, and most of this would not have happend.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I hope you are right. Seriously, with the exception of some of the more delusional out there I don't think anybody wants that. But the way Weaver's wife was killed? That was flat out murder. She was not an enemy combatant. It wouldn't matter if she had had a pistol or a shotgun in her hands, she posed no risk to the sniper. Instead she was holding their child. I think if this were to happen today there would be enough people who would form up and go hunting the government agents involved. There is no way for that to end well and would likely result in extreme military involvement. There would be considerable loss of life, and for what? A show of force by a government acting outside it's authority?

Her death, murder or not is on her husband. The tatical part of it was the snipers fault. But he was not convicted of murder, so I dont know what to tell you. I was not personally behind the glass to squeeze the trigger.
As far as happening today and anyone doing anything about it? Not a chance. First people would have to get out from infront of the TV and off the couch to do anything.
I always ask people that make that statement, are you willing to throw everything in your life away to start your personal war with the G?

 

[VanceMack]

Grow up.

Read your own posts.

 

[joko104]

I hope you are right. Seriously, with the exception of some of the more delusional out there I don't think anybody wants that. But the way Weaver's wife was killed? That was flat out murder. She was not an enemy combatant. It wouldn't matter if she had had a pistol or a shotgun in her hands, she posed no risk to the sniper. Instead she was holding their child. I think if this were to happen today there would be enough people who would form up and go hunting the government agents involved. There is no way for that to end well and would likely result in extreme military involvement. There would be considerable loss of life, and for what? A show of force by a government acting outside it's authority?

It appears his repeated position is that if anyone knows they have a warrant for their arrest for anything then it's that person's fault if government snipers kill his/her entire family - and then only after killing everyone else in the family announce they are police demanding he also step out into then open so they can kill him/her too.

So you better make sure you don't a redlight camera ticket that was mailed to you that you didn't pay and it went to warrant. If so, your entire family might be gunned down at the next family reunion and it entirely your fault - or if your kid has a pot warrant he didn't appear in court for and then you and everyone else but your kid are to be assassinated for which you kid is entirely responsible.

Of course, the charge against Weaver was he cut a shotgun that wasn't his 1/2 inch too short at the request of a federal officer - for which his view then is if everyone in his family is gunned down it's his own fault. Accordingly, he is the most radical gun control zealot on the forum - although elsewhere he claims otherwise. In his view, violate any federal gun statute and you subject your entire family to a summary death sentence and whatever the government does you had it coming as you own fault - as does anyone who happens to be around you.

Add to that is his apparent extreme bigotry against fundamentalist and conservative Christians, nearly all who believe in the Hal Linsey book and the end times, for which he had made it clear anyone who has such a belief has brought on whatever action the government takes upon themselves.

His is the same historic logic used to blame Mormons themselves for their being attacked, slaughtered and they towns burned down. They brought it on themselves because of their beliefs and life style.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Read your own posts.

Dont have to. I posted them myself and stand by everyone of them.

 

[joko104]

Her death, murder or not is on her husband. The tatical part of it was the snipers fault. But he was not convicted of murder, so I dont know what to tell you. I was not personally behind the glass to squeeze the trigger.
As far as happening today and anyone doing anything about it? Not a chance. First people would have to get out from infront of the TV and off the couch to do anything.
I always ask people that make that statement, are you willing to throw everything in your life away to start your personal war with the G?

Given all your messages, please list all the other religious and ideology beliefs for which the person is declaring war on the government and the government rightly should go to "war" against - other than fundamentalist and conventional Christians you've already specified?

Most Muslims also believe in the apocalypse. So do you want the government to go war against all Muslims too? Or just white Christians?

 

[CRUE CAB]

It appears his repeated position is that if anyone knows they have a warrant for their arrest for anything then it's that person's fault if government snipers kill his/her entire family - and then only after killing everyone else in the family announce they are police demanding he also step out into then open so they can kill him/her too.

So you better make sure you don't a redlight camera ticket that was mailed to you that you didn't pay and it went to warrant. If so, your entire family might be gunned down at the next family reunion and it entirely your fault - or if your kid has a pot warrant he didn't appear in court for and then you and everyone else but your kid are to be assassinated for which you kid is entirely responsible.

Of course, the charge against Weaver was he cut a shotgun that wasn't his 1/2 inch too short at the request of a federal officer - for which his view then is if everyone in his family is gunned down it's his own fault. Accordingly, he is the most radical gun control zealot on the forum - although elsewhere he claims otherwise. In his view, violate any federal gun statute and you subject your entire family to a summary death sentence and whatever the government does you had it coming as you own fault - as does anyone who happens to be around you.

Add to that is his apparent extreme bigotry against fundamentalist and conservative Christians, nearly all who believe in the Hal Linsey book and the end times, for which he had made it clear anyone who has such a belief has brought on whatever action the government takes upon themselves.

His is the same historic logic used to blame Mormons themselves for their being attacked, slaughtered and they towns burned down. They brought it on themselves because of their beliefs and life style.

Please, point to where I justified the governments actions that day. Also show me where I have been anti gun, anti christian or anti anything else about this.
Oh, and is Hal Linsey a Profet? Is he a seer of all things end times?

 

[joko104]

I personally happen to know you have to be a real idiot to willingly cut down a guns barrel and sell it. People like that deserve jail.

^ Anti-gun radical zealotry at it's most extreme - that anyone who modified a firearm and sells it should go to prison. Your messages define you at near the top of the list of supporters of the anti-gunner war against gun owners.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Given all your messages, please list all the other religious and ideology beliefs for which the person is declaring war on the government and the government rightly should go to "war" against - other than fundamentalist and conventional Christians you've already specified?

Most Muslims also believe in the apocalypse. So do you want the government to go war against all Muslims too? Or just white Christians?

Do you actually read? I never said anyone should go to war with the government and dont think anyone has the balls to either.
Are you lying or just wrong?

 

[CRUE CAB]

^ Anti-gun radical zealotry.

Willingly break known gun laws, go to jail. That is "radical"? Have you read any posts of mine on gun control? Oh yea, you have liked many of them.

 

[joko104]

Do you actually read? I never said anyone should go to war with the government and dont think anyone has the balls to either.
Are you lying or just wrong?

I'm just noting your EXTREME as possible declarations against various religious, ideological and political beliefs that you claim are so intolerable and dangerous that they invoke a "personal war" (your words) with and by the government - including all Christians who believe in the apocalypse - which is about 50,000,000 Christians.

My message was other than Muslims who also have their own apocalypse beliefs, who else is on your list?

 

[joko104]

Willingly break known gun laws, go to jail. That is "radical"? Have you read any posts of mine on gun control? Oh yea, you have liked many of them.

Yes I have "Liked" them. I don't make enemy lists for which if I disagree with a person on some messages I don't then determine to not like any of their messages.

Your statement that anyone who modified a firearms' barrel and sells it should go to prison is extreme anti-gun zealotry in my opinion.

 

[VanceMack]

Dont have to. I posted them myself and stand by everyone of them.

And thats what makes you 'that guy'

 

[CRUE CAB]

I'm just noting your EXTREME as possible declarations against various religious, ideological and political beliefs that you claim are so intolerable and dangerous that they invoke a "personal war" (your words) with and by the government - including all Christians who believe in the apocalypse - which is about 50,000,000 Christians.

My message was other than Muslims who also have their own apocalypse beliefs, who else is on your list?

Quote me. Dont just say I said something. I am calling bull**** on you.
What have I said that is "extreme"? What personal war are you taking about?
Break the law, get the ATF on your ass, hang out with the AB and hey guess what, you may be looked at as a criminal.

 

[Montecresto]

Apparently, his wife Vicki was....

"...In 1978, Vicki read a book that began what would be a long-term drift toward a Christianity-based apocalyptic view of the world. Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth applied his interpretation of the prophesies of the Old Testament to the events of current times and concluded that we were now in "the end time." A nuclear holocaust and Armageddon were just around the corner, but the good news was that Jesus would return to Earth. Violence and pestilence soon would fall upon the planet, and Christians persecuted, in a terrible time called The Great Tribulation. Then there would be The Rapture, and true believers selected by God to join him in Paradise. Vicki and Randy began to share with friends their plan of moving to a mountain top, as far as possible from false governments, desperate people, and hunters of good Christians like themselves. "We've been having this vision," Vicki would say.

Vicki's search for "the truth" led her into libraries and bookstores. She read and found significance in books such as Ayn's Rand's Atlas Shrugged, a novel warning of the dangers of an all-powerful state, and in the prophetic short stories of H. G. Wells, which dwelled on themes such as Armageddon and Judgment Day. She and Randy began meeting regularly with like-minded radical Christians at the Cedar Falls Sambo's restaurant. Vicki poured over passages from her King James Bible, drawing lessons ranging from what to eat (no unclean meat such as pork or oysters) to how to prepare for the "end time." In Matthew 24 she encountered the passage which reinforced her vision of their future: "Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains." ....
The Randy Weaver (Ruby Ridge) Trial: An Account


Living off the grid and home schooling was also a common factor....

"..Weaver wished to home-school his children, which his home state of Iowa would not allow, and wanted to escape oppressive government taxation and regulation. The Weaver family wanted to become self-sufficient; they even lived without electricity and telephone in their home...."
The Randy Weaver (Ruby Ridge) Trial: An Account

"...Mr. Singer, .... was killed at the cabin Jan. 18, 1979, by police officers seeking to arrest him for refusing to send his children to public school. The authorities, who had surrounded the compound for 18 days, said Mr. Singer had pointed a pistol at them. Vickie Singer denied that. Excommunicated by Mormons..."
Standoff Goes On at Polygamist's Utah Compound - NYTimes.com

"Blood Feud"--John Singer vs. The State of Utah reported by Mike Watkiss - YouTube

I thought then that the government was wrong in the way they harrassed John Singer and Randy Weaver, and I still do. While I'm not a fan of extremism in any form, I think people have a right to live the way they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone or imposing their extremist beliefs on others. As for comparison, the Singers and the Weavers were just families wanting to be left alone and live off the grid......whereas the Davidians were a sick twisted cult.

Lots of people have those same beliefs and views. They are not harmful to anyone. Hal Lindsey and Ayn Rand had them and lived normal lives. They aren't my views or your views, but this is America. They didn't have criminal records. Based on their world views they wanted to live a rural, secluded lifestyle, alone and bothering nobody. Randy had been repeatedly approached and invited to attend skin head meetings (they are very concentrated in the Moscow area) and finally he went. He discovered that he didn't like it, didn't share their views or sympathise with them and declined participation. Shortly afterwards he was approached by an FBI agent wanting him to join the group and be an informant for them. Randy declined, THAT was his mistake! You apparently don't tell the government no. Later on he met and befriended another guy that had seen and admired a gun that he had and pressured him to sell it. Finally he did, the guy then asked him if he could cut it down for him because he hadn't the tools or experience. Randy told him to mark it and leave it with him. When the guy returned for it, he measured it, seeing it was 1/2" shorter than legal length he presented his credentials and arrested him. Randy felt angry and betrayed. But Randy did commit a crime. He was released from jail pending a court date. The date he received in the mail was incorrect, his attorney believes intentionally, and he missed the hearing. This culminated in a tragic, senseless and over the top, heavy handed response from the police as we all know.



And homeschooling, living off the grid. What's wrong with that?

 

[Montecresto]

Funny how many of you think you are some sort of experts on this case.
Obviously you sympathize with the Weavers. Why I dont know. And your anti government senitments are running over.
But the one and only fact remains, he got himself in the trouble he was. He ran with people that were nothing but trouble and seemed to want to pick a fight with anyone he could.
For his troubles, he got the attention of the ATF. Quite a feat.
I have yet to stand up for the governments actions that day or the days leading up to it.
But when you boil it down, Weaver put himself in the position he was.
Wrong dates, entrapment, son blasting a way, dogs running out in the woods, sniper screw ups. All of it falls on his shoulders.
That said, none of us were there. Not me, not any of you. And if you google it or go to the library and look it up. You will find mulitple accounts.
So what is the truth? The truth is Weaver is to blame. Hence, I have no sympathy for him. He chose to live in a cabin in the woods with no way to communicate with the outside world, because of the impending "apocolypse" and Jesus's return.
One phone call, and most of this would not have happend.

Right, only CC knows the truth.

 

[Montecresto]

Willingly break known gun laws, go to jail. That is "radical"? Have you read any posts of mine on gun control? Oh yea, you have liked many of them.

Go to jail or pay the related fine, whatever, sure. But have half your family killed, NO. There's a warrant for you, the sheriff serves the warrant and arrests you. Unless you want to provoke a confrontation. Then you show up with dozens of Leo's and start shooting, killing the dog and startling the residence who don't even know who you are, showing up in the woods out back rather than at the front door where warrants are typically served. I don't understand your defence of something the government was forced to pay restitution for, but then some people.........

 

[tech30528]

Please, point to where I justified the governments actions that day. Also show me where I have been anti gun, anti christian or anti anything else about this.
Oh, and is Hal Linsey a Profet? Is he a seer of all things end times?

What difference does it make? They didn't kill the author, nor did they kill every home schooler who read the book. Weaver's crime was cutting a firearm barrel too short. It is not a violent crime. I suppose you would justify some being shot dead for texting while driving? Or their family members?

 

[CRUE CAB]

Yes I have "Liked" them. I don't make enemy lists for which if I disagree with a person on some messages I don't then determine to not like any of their messages.

Your statement that anyone who modified a firearms' barrel and sells it should go to prison is extreme anti-gun zealotry in my opinion.

Modifying and cutting down below the legal limit are two different things.
I dont agree with the law, but we all know its the law. Its one of the ones that will get you in hot water faster than most others.
And you as a supposed cop, should know that.

 

[CRUE CAB]

What difference does it make? They didn't kill the author, nor did they kill every home schooler who read the book. Weaver's crime was cutting a firearm barrel too short. It is not a violent crime. I suppose you would justify some being shot dead for texting while driving? Or their family members?

Another person that dont read. I never said I agreed with or justified the governments actions that day. But the fact remains, Weaver got the ball rolling at the start.
He knew what he was doing was wrong.
Any time you break the law, no matter how insignificant. Bad **** can spiral out of control.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Go to jail or pay the related fine, whatever, sure. But have half your family killed, NO. There's a warrant for you, the sheriff serves the warrant and arrests you. Unless you want to provoke a confrontation. Then you show up with dozens of Leo's and start shooting, killing the dog and startling the residence who don't even know who you are, showing up in the woods out back rather than at the front door where warrants are typically served. I don't understand your defence of something the government was forced to pay restitution for, but then some people.........

Oh my god, again. Point to where I defended the government. You guys are getting all foamed up over nothing.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Right, only CC knows the truth.

I know that when you break the law, whether its a little or alot, or a good law or a bad one. You better stay on top of things or your life can and will be impacted. Justified or not.
Settle your problems in court, not in a defiant gun battle.

 

[jaeger19]

Take it from the top. Did he commit a crime? Did he not go to court? Its called personal responsibility. Had he not committed a crime to begin with he would not have been in that position.

I see.. so committing a crime.... In this case failure to appear...... gives the government the right to shoot you in the back, shoot your dog, your son, your wife, and your friend. Because you failed to appear in court and violated terms of bail which is what he was convicted off. He was acquitted on all other charges.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I see.. so committing a crime.... In this case failure to appear...... gives the government the right to shoot you in the back, shoot your dog, your son, your wife, and your friend. Because you failed to appear in court and violated terms of bail which is what he was convicted off. He was acquitted on all other charges.

Quote me where I said, they were justified in doing any of that?

 

[tech30528]

I'm just noting your EXTREME as possible declarations against various religious, ideological and political beliefs that you claim are so intolerable and dangerous that they invoke a "personal war" (your words) with and by the government - including all Christians who believe in the apocalypse - which is about 50,000,000 Christians.

My message was other than Muslims who also have their own apocalypse beliefs, who else is on your list?

It's a bit ambitious and pretty arrogant of the federal government to be afraid of those who believe in an apocalypse isn't it? The apocalypse is the end of the WORLD, not the federal government. Unless of course, the federal government fancies itself the world government.