Remember Ruby Ridge

[Montecresto]

Sure, ask him too. I figure he'll take the kill ratio in pride.

Your a calloused SOB!!

 

[joko104]

Were you there? He had time to think about the crime, whether he was "set up" or not. He had time after his son shot the cop.
He had chances to stand down and surrender to protect his family. Which is a father and husbands first responsibility.

No matter how many times you post this claim, it is absolutely factually false. His two children and wife were dead before any police presence known.

But you can, of course, just keep posting your false platitude over and over if it makes you feel good for some reason.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

I remember when Ruby Ridge happened the NRA, specifically Wayne LaPierre, referred to the FBI as "jack booted thugs," which in my opinion they were. Lon Horiuchi, the FBI sniper who shot and killed Vicki Weaver by accident, got away with involuntary manslaughter.

Following the conclusion of the trial of Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris in 1993, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) created a "Ruby Ridge Task Force" to investigate allegations made by Weaver's defense attorney Gerry Spence. On 10 June 1994, the Task Force delivered its 542-page report to the DOJ Office of Professional Responsibility. The Report stated: "With regard to the two shots fired on August 22, we concluded that the first shot met the standard of 'objective reasonableness' the Constitution requires for the legal use of deadly force but that the second shot did not satisfy that standard.

I also remember Bush 41 resigning his life membership from the NRA for those comments. I said, and still say, good riddance he resigned.

This is how Horiuchi got away with it.

the case was dismissed by U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge on May 14, 1998, who cited the supremacy clause of the Constitution which grants immunity to federal officers acting in the scope of their employment.

Lon Horiuchi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[CRUE CAB]

No matter how many times you post this claim, it is absolutely factually false. His two children and wife were dead before any police presence known.

But you can, of course, just keep posting your false platitude over and over if it makes you feel good for some reason.

No evidence of that at all. Who did he think was shooting? And were you there?

 

[CRUE CAB]

Well first, I've looked at all your posts in this thread and you talk like you were there. Secondly, it was never established that his son shot a cop. Thirdly, this all happened because he sold an under cover cop a rifle that was a 1/2" to short in barrel length. A rifle that the under cover cop bought from him and then asked him to cut it off to his specs! How does that warrant dozens of LEO showing up for a shoot out and four people dead. And finally, why are there so many people that defend law enforcement abuse?

I have not acted like I was there at all, I know he was wanted though. I know there was a warrant out of his arrest and that he missed his court date. He was also the one that committed the crime that kicked all of this off.
You people act like he is some cult hero.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Everything you have posted says "**** em... It's all Weavers fault". Your cavalier attitude towards an outright assassination of an unarmed woman holding a child is as repugnant as the scumbag that pulled the trigger.

Lets see, what does Guy always say. Emotional fallacy. I never stood behind the governments role in this, but Weaver is the one that broke the law.

 

[CRUE CAB]

Including the dead LEO?

Apparently dead cops are ok.

 

[Montecresto]

I have not acted like I was there at all, I know he was wanted though. I know there was a warrant out of his arrest and that he missed his court date. He was also the one that committed the crime that kicked all of this off.
You people act like he is some cult hero.

No. He was provided an incorrect court date. A date latter than what it really was. That's why a warrant was issued. Can you explain the need for DOZENS of LEO's to in force a warrant? Come on, are you a cop too?

 

[CRUE CAB]

Well first, I've looked at all your posts in this thread and you talk like you were there. Secondly, it was never established that his son shot a cop. Thirdly, this all happened because he sold an under cover cop a rifle that was a 1/2" to short in barrel length. A rifle that the under cover cop bought from him and then asked him to cut it off to his specs! How does that warrant dozens of LEO showing up for a shoot out and four people dead. And finally, why are there so many people that defend law enforcement abuse?

I have not defended anything, only pointed out that Weaver is the one that broke the law and was arrested.

 

[CRUE CAB]

No. He was provided an incorrect court date. A date latter than what it really was. That's why a warrant was issued. Can you explain the need for DOZENS of LEO's to in force a warrant? Come on, are you a cop too?

So he didnt break the law, we are to blame all this on a typo? And what if I am?

 

[Montecresto]

Lets see, what does Guy always say. Emotional fallacy. I never stood behind the governments role in this, but Weaver is the one that broke the law.

It was entrapment! And do you happen to know why? Do you know why the government was pissed at him, and why they sent an undercover agent out to entrap him?

 

[Montecresto]

So he didnt break the law, we are to blame all this on a typo? And what if I am?

I never said it was a typo. Are you a cop?

 

[CRUE CAB]

It was entrapment! And do you happen to know why? Do you know why the government was pissed at him, and why they sent an undercover agent out to entrap him?

Why dont you tell the whole class, if you have all the answers. Me? I personally happen to know you have to be a real idiot to willingly cut down a guns barrel and sell it. People like that deserve jail.

 

[CRUE CAB]

I never said it was a typo. Are you a cop?

You said his court papers had the wrong date, thats called a typo. What if I am. What difference does it make what I do? You a cop?

 

[Montecresto]

Why dont you tell the whole class, if you have all the answers. Me? I personally happen to know you have to be a real idiot to willingly cut down a guns barrel and sell it. People like that deserve jail.

Oh jail maybe. But dozens of LEO's and a dead wife! Really, what's your problem?

 

[Montecresto]

You said his court papers had the wrong date, thats called a typo. What if I am. What difference does it make what I do? You a cop?

If you don't show up for court for a minor crime you shouldn't have half the county at your house killing your dog, your wife and your son. What's wrong with you? You are a cop aren't you?

 

[VanceMack]

Lets see, what does Guy always say. Emotional fallacy. I never stood behind the governments role in this, but Weaver is the one that broke the law.

:lamo You just quoted...Guy...

:lamo

You just lost any argument you could ever possibly make on this site.

 

[Moot]

How was Randy a religious extremist?

Apparently, his wife Vicki was....

"...In 1978, Vicki read a book that began what would be a long-term drift toward a Christianity-based apocalyptic view of the world. Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth applied his interpretation of the prophesies of the Old Testament to the events of current times and concluded that we were now in "the end time." A nuclear holocaust and Armageddon were just around the corner, but the good news was that Jesus would return to Earth. Violence and pestilence soon would fall upon the planet, and Christians persecuted, in a terrible time called The Great Tribulation. Then there would be The Rapture, and true believers selected by God to join him in Paradise. Vicki and Randy began to share with friends their plan of moving to a mountain top, as far as possible from false governments, desperate people, and hunters of good Christians like themselves. "We've been having this vision," Vicki would say.

Vicki's search for "the truth" led her into libraries and bookstores. She read and found significance in books such as Ayn's Rand's Atlas Shrugged, a novel warning of the dangers of an all-powerful state, and in the prophetic short stories of H. G. Wells, which dwelled on themes such as Armageddon and Judgment Day. She and Randy began meeting regularly with like-minded radical Christians at the Cedar Falls Sambo's restaurant. Vicki poured over passages from her King James Bible, drawing lessons ranging from what to eat (no unclean meat such as pork or oysters) to how to prepare for the "end time." In Matthew 24 she encountered the passage which reinforced her vision of their future: "Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains." ....
The Randy Weaver (Ruby Ridge) Trial: An Account


Living off the grid and home schooling was also a common factor....

"..Weaver wished to home-school his children, which his home state of Iowa would not allow, and wanted to escape oppressive government taxation and regulation. The Weaver family wanted to become self-sufficient; they even lived without electricity and telephone in their home...."
The Randy Weaver (Ruby Ridge) Trial: An Account

"...Mr. Singer, .... was killed at the cabin Jan. 18, 1979, by police officers seeking to arrest him for refusing to send his children to public school. The authorities, who had surrounded the compound for 18 days, said Mr. Singer had pointed a pistol at them. Vickie Singer denied that. Excommunicated by Mormons..."
Standoff Goes On at Polygamist's Utah Compound - NYTimes.com

"Blood Feud"--John Singer vs. The State of Utah reported by Mike Watkiss - YouTube

I thought then that the government was wrong in the way they harrassed John Singer and Randy Weaver, and I still do. While I'm not a fan of extremism in any form, I think people have a right to live the way they want as long as they aren't hurting anyone or imposing their extremist beliefs on others. As for comparison, the Singers and the Weavers were just families wanting to be left alone and live off the grid......whereas the Davidians were a sick twisted cult.

 

[sawyerloggingon]

Generally, sometimes, sometimes not. I realize the government is made up of human beings and will never be perfect and is capable of making mistakes and getting it all wrong. But there are things that it can do well and do what a private person or company can't do on they're own. How about you, do you trust government?

"Trust government" :lamo

 

[TurtleDude]

Why dont you tell the whole class, if you have all the answers. Me? I personally happen to know you have to be a real idiot to willingly cut down a guns barrel and sell it. People like that deserve jail.

the guy "buying the gun" claimed that he knew the legal length and Weaver was desperate to sell the gun so he could afford a doctor for his sick wife.

SO it was entrapment and he relied on the claim of the agent-he only cut the barrel because the agent assured him it was still legal

BTW lots of comments in this thread are erroneous

the marshalls shot the boy's dog. The boy fired random shots in their direction and was then shot in the back. Family friend Kevin Harris then killed USDM Sam Degan and Harris's killing was found to be JUSTIFIABLE. Weaver and Harris were both shot at by FBI agents-the agents claimed that these two men were about to fire on a helicopter that in reality was more than FIVE MILES away. The sniper who shot Vicky Weaver (Lon Horiuchi) was most likely shooting at a running Kevin Harris and hit her by accident even though his shot at Harris violated several laws

 

[CRUE CAB]

Apparently, his wife Vicki was....

"...In 1978, Vicki read a book that began what would be a long-term drift toward a Christianity-based apocalyptic view of the world. Hal Lindsey's The Late Great Planet Earth applied his interpretation of the prophesies of the Old Testament to the events of current times and concluded that we were now in "the end time." A nuclear holocaust and Armageddon were just around the corner,
Living off the grid and home schooling was also a common factor....
.

Yea, just alittle crazy. But hey, lets make martyrs.

 

[CRUE CAB]

the guy "buying the gun" claimed that he knew the legal length and Weaver was desperate to sell the gun so he could afford a doctor for his sick wife.

SO it was entrapment and he relied on the claim of the agent-he only cut the barrel because the agent assured him it was still legal

BTW lots of comments in this thread are erroneous

the marshalls shot the boy's dog. The boy fired random shots in their direction and was then shot in the back. Family friend Kevin Harris then killed USDM Sam Degan and Harris's killing was found to be JUSTIFIABLE. Weaver and Harris were both shot at by FBI agents-the agents claimed that these two men were about to fire on a helicopter that in reality was more than FIVE MILES away. The sniper who shot Vicky Weaver (Lon Horiuchi) was most likely shooting at a running Kevin Harris and hit her by accident even though his shot at Harris violated several laws

So he was entraped? So what? Half of all drug arrests are entrapment busts. Same with prostitution and other vices.
How was he the only one so lucky to have half his family shot up over it?

 

[CRUE CAB]

:lamo You just quoted...Guy...

:lamo

You just lost any argument you could ever possibly make on this site.

Grow up.

 

[CRUE CAB]

It was entrapment! And do you happen to know why? Do you know why the government was pissed at him, and why they sent an undercover agent out to entrap him?

Oh, and I dont care. He broke the law. He knew there was a warrant out for him even if his court date was wrong on his paperwork.
He should have been smart enough to get in front of that. Or was he too busy at his Ayran Brotherhood meetings to get that straightend out?

 

[tech30528]

You can quote me years from now, there will be no massive armed conflict between the US government and its citizens.
As far as Weaver, he had chances before that to quell the fight. Surrender in order to protect his family.

I hope you are right. Seriously, with the exception of some of the more delusional out there I don't think anybody wants that. But the way Weaver's wife was killed? That was flat out murder. She was not an enemy combatant. It wouldn't matter if she had had a pistol or a shotgun in her hands, she posed no risk to the sniper. Instead she was holding their child. I think if this were to happen today there would be enough people who would form up and go hunting the government agents involved. There is no way for that to end well and would likely result in extreme military involvement. There would be considerable loss of life, and for what? A show of force by a government acting outside it's authority?