• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good


  • Total voters
    47
"a few" is an understatement - the number of people, priests, minister, bishops and other leaders who have tortured, murdered, waged war and everything else "in the name of God" leaves a path of destruction that goes on throughout history - quite the body count.

Pretend that there was no such thing as religion. Do you actually think that none of those things would have happened?

The fact that wars and atrocities were committed in the name of religion doesn't mean that they would never have happened in the absence of religion.

Oddly - almost every single God and Goddess is directly responsible for mass deaths (like the Flood in Genesis) at the same time.

Wait - are you saying that you believe that a supernatural being actually killed all those people via things like floods?

If so, then it would seem pretty foolish to be saying religion is useless.
If not, then it obviously wasn't the fault of a religion that those people died.
 
To add my 2 cents about pastors. My dad is a pastor, he has always worked in some kind of ministry position (like running homeless shelters, working as a chaplain in a prison, pastoring). There is no money in this. Yeah there may be the 10 millionaire preachers, but 99% of them don't make much at all. My dad is a full time minister and gets paid very little. It's a full time job for churches of a nominal size (like 100+). Preparing a sermon isn't easy. My dad has hundreds of theology books that he reads, studies, and takes what he learns to create a sermon. He makes 3 sermons a week, counsels people, makes hospital visits, does funerals/weddings, ministers to church members, and many other things that people don't think of. One thing is certain, my dad is in the ministry because he wants to serve God and people, not for money. I know many pastors like this, and the majority make very little.
 
Last edited:
Be honest. The average church building is incredibly under-utilized. The pastor's offices may be used Tues-Friday, but the rest of the building is empty on Monday, Tuesday, all day Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and most Saturdays.

Even on Sunday, the building is probably only used 5 hours a day.

Compare that to the average Boys & Girls Club, which runs 8 a.m. until 10 p.m., Monday - Saturday, or even the average office building.

Sorry. I gotta disagree. "Incredibly under-utilized" is a subjective term, but did you read the list of groups who regularly use our building? Most evenings someone is using our building for something.
 
Sorry. I gotta disagree. "Incredibly under-utilized" is a subjective term, but did you read the list of groups who regularly use our building? Most evenings someone is using our building for something.

If that's the case, that's really good, and your congregation is pretty different from the norm. There are about 6 churches near my house. 90% of the time, their parking lots are empty.
 
I asked you first. You believe they should be paid, please feel free to justify this position using scripture.

lolwut

Where does the bible say that priests should shake your hand when you exit the church?
Where does the bible say that you shouldn't be able to hand out burritos instead of communion wafers?
Where does the bible say that mass shouldn't be conducted in the nude?

The fact that the bible doesn't specifically say "priests shall be paid at the rate of 35,000 per annum indexed to prime plus 1% as published in the daily WSJ" doesn't mean that they cannot be paid.

The problem is that I don't believe that. I do tend to believe that most religious people are deluded by the notion that they need to put themselves through a huge amount of rigamarole in order to connect to God. And, if there is a God, I don't believe that's what he/she intended.

How exactly would you like me to couch that sentiment in order to avoid hurting your feelings?

Again, I don't understand why you think that your tendency to make sweeping, unsupported generalizations is somehow "hurting my feelings." I'm well aware of your bitterness toward religion, and I don't expect that you'll be singing the praises of any religious practices anytime soon. It's like when I try to get a partisan poster to acknowledge something good about the left or right so that we can work off of that common ground to have a productive discussion. If they do, great, if not, whatever. All I was hoping for is that you could see the absurdity of your statement and try to have a decent discussion. It's clear that that's not going to happen.
 
Last edited:
To add my 2 cents about pastors. My dad is a pastor, he has always worked in some kind of ministry position (like running homeless shelters, working as a chaplain in a prison, pastoring). There is no money in this. Yeah there may be the 10 millionaire preachers, but 99% of them don't make much at all. My dad is a full time minister and gets paid very little. It's a full time job for churches of a nominal size (like 100+). Preparing a sermon isn't easy. My dad has hundreds of theology books that he reads, studies, and takes what he learns to create a sermon. He makes 3 sermons a week, counsels people, makes hospital visits, does funerals/weddings, ministers to church members, and many other things that people don't think of. One thing is certain, my dad is in the ministry because he wants to serve God and people, not for money. I know many pastors like this, and the majority make very little.

Question, Digsbe. Why do you think that God made the path to him so difficult that it requires a religious doctorate to understand and explain it? WHy does your dad need an entire library full of theological books to understand the bible?
 
To add my 2 cents about pastors. My dad is a pastor, he has always worked in some kind of ministry position (like running homeless shelters, working as a chaplain in a prison, pastoring). There is no money in this. Yeah there may be the 10 millionaire preachers, but 99% of them don't make much at all. My dad is a full time minister and gets paid very little. It's a full time job for churches of a nominal size (like 100+). Preparing a sermon isn't easy. My dad has hundreds of theology books that he reads, studies, and takes what he learns to create a sermon. He makes 3 sermons a week, counsels people, makes hospital visits, does funerals/weddings, ministers to church members, and many other things that people don't think of. One thing is certain, my dad is in the ministry because he wants to serve God and people, not for money. I know many pastors like this, and the majority make very little.

I concur. Our pastor's make a comfortable living, but by no means are they getting rich off their salaries. And I fully believe they should be paid. They put in a lot of time doing the things you mentioned, not mention overseeing the many different ministries within the church and making sure they are running smoothly, and then meeting with the various boards that run the church as well.

Let me put it this way. I know exactly what our pastors make. Down to the penny. And I wouldn't take the job for twice what they get paid. Because I also have a fairly good idea of the hours they work, the responsibilities they are entrusted with, and criticism they are open to as leaders. No thanks.
 
Question, Digsbe. Why do you think that God made the path to him so difficult that it requires a religious doctorate to understand and explain it?

My friend's dad doesn't have a degree and he pastors. My dad doesn't have a doctorate either. The things they typically study is Hebrew, Greek, hermeneutics, the culture of the Bible, and Biblical history that aids in understanding and interpreting the Bible. Consider God as the employer of pastors. Wouldn't you want to employ a teacher who knows what they are talking about? Would you not want to train a teacher?
 
The fact that the bible doesn't specifically say "priests shall be paid at the rate of 35,000 per annum indexed to prime plus 1% as published in the daily WSJ" doesn't mean that they cannot be paid.

So, what you're saying is that you're not aware of any biblical justification for a paid ministerial staff?

Duly noted.

Again, I don't understand why you think that your tendency to make sweeping, unsupported generalizations is somehow "hurting my feelings." I'm well aware of your bitterness toward religion, and I don't expect that you'll be singing the praises of any religious practices anytime soon. It's like when I try to get a partisan poster to acknowledge something good about the left or right so that we can work off of that common ground to have a productive discussion. All I was hoping for is that you could see the absurdity of your statement and try to have a decent discussion. It's clear that that's not going to happen.

Do you not understand that almost every response you've made to me has had some kind of personal zinger attached to it? You need a brick of salt to read my posts. I have issues. I demonize religion in every post. I'm bitter.

Where have I made personal comments like this about you, and why do you feel entitled to do this, and then complain that the discussion isn't "decent?"

I'm pretty clear that if I started dishing these comments back to you, I'd get gigged for it.

So, do you want to have a civil discussion, that doesn't include personal aspersions, or not?
 
My friend's dad doesn't have a degree and he pastors. My dad doesn't have a doctorate either. The things they typically study is Hebrew, Greek, hermeneutics, the culture of the Bible, and Biblical history that aids in understanding and interpreting the Bible. Consider God as the employer of pastors. Wouldn't you want to employ a teacher who knows what they are talking about? Would you not want to train a teacher?

Why do you think that God would make this so complicated that people have to be "trained" in order to properly explain it? Is God deliberately trying to make things difficult for humans? Wouldn't a merciful God make it as easy as possible for the majority of humans to find him?

Just questions I have.
 
Why do you think that God would make this so complicated that people have to be "trained" in order to properly explain it? Is God deliberately trying to make things difficult for humans? Wouldn't a merciful God make it as easy as possible for the majority of humans to find him?

Just questions I have.

People have to be trained to do their job. The role of a pastor is to be a "shepherd" and a teacher. I am in no way saying that only pastors can interpret and explain the Bible. One of the main things about Christianity is having an individual relationship with God and understanding His truths through being in that relationship with him. However, the Bible also says each Christian is equipped with a Spiritual Gift. One of those gifts is the pastoral gift, and it serves the purpose of being the human leader of a church and educating those who go there. I do believe that God makes it easy for us to find Him. However, He isn't going to force Himself on us and leaves the decision up to us to refuse Him or not.
 
People have to be trained to do their job. The role of a pastor is to be a "shepherd" and a teacher. I am in no way saying that only pastors can interpret and explain the Bible. One of the main things about Christianity is having an individual relationship with God and understanding His truths through being in that relationship with him. However, the Bible also says each Christian is equipped with a Spiritual Gift. One of those gifts is the pastoral gift, and it serves the purpose of being the human leader of a church and educating those who go there. I do believe that God makes it easy for us to find Him. However, He isn't going to force Himself on us and leaves the decision up to us to refuse Him or not.

Well, that's a perspective. ;) I disagree, but you knew that already. However, you explained yourself well. :)
 
Why do you think that God would make this so complicated that people have to be "trained" in order to properly explain it? Is God deliberately trying to make things difficult for humans? Wouldn't a merciful God make it as easy as possible for the majority of humans to find him?

Just questions I have.

The newest parts of the Bible were written over two thousand years ago in a different language to a different culture. You don't think it takes some study to be able to put things into the proper context?

Are the simple basic truths of the Bible easily accessible? Yes. Can the average person have a in depth understanding of scripture simply by reading the Bible on an occassional basis like most of do (if people do that much)? No. To use an analogy. Could I understand the basic plot of Moby Dick just by picking it up and reading it? Yeah. Will I understand all the symbolism and deeper meaning of the book by one casual read through? Not likely.
 
The newest parts of the Bible were written over two thousand years ago in a different language to a different culture. You don't think it takes some study to be able to put things into the proper context?

Are the simple basic truths of the Bible easily accessible? Yes. Can the average person have a in depth understanding of scripture simply by reading the Bible on an occassional basis like most of do (if people do that much)? No. To use an analogy. Could I understand the basic plot of Moby Dick just by picking it up and reading it? Yeah. Will I understand all the symbolism and deeper meaning of the book by one casual read through? Not likely.

Actually, they were written about 1700 years ago, but why quibble on the details. ;)
 
Well, that's a perspective. ;) I disagree, but you knew that already. However, you explained yourself well. :)

Thanks, and I do understand that you disagree and I respect your perspective as well.
 
This thread reminds how those militantly anti-religious are as bad or worse than those who try and shove their religion down my throat. I have a(well earned) hostility towards Christianity, and in christian subcult in particular, but I at least don't use it to constantly attack religious people every time the topic comes up.
 
For good and bad, religion has always represented the public aspect of an organizing principle: where we come from and why we are here. Without religion there would have been no great cultures: Greek, Egyptian, Babylonian, Hindu, Roman, Russian, and the Carolingian dynasty among others. All of them were defined by the religion of the day and was an organizing principle for their cultures and societies. It defined their identity versus their enemies. That this was used for bad reasons, both against their enemies as well as to their own people to ensure adherence, should not detract from the good that was done in establishing these empires.

This is an observation of how religion participated at the societal level. How religion plays at the individual level is more aptly called spirituality and was excluded in the topic.

There is very real danger in the west having lost its organizing principle. It is the ideas of the liberal republic which allows many different faiths to co-exist. The rise in militant atheism along with the assault on liberal democratic principles seeks to undermine that organizing principle. Woe be to us.
 
Last edited:
So, what you're saying is that you're not aware of any biblical justification for a paid ministerial staff?

What I'm saying is that that's not how it works.

Do you not understand that almost every response you've made to me has had some kind of personal zinger attached to it?

And I'm the one whose feelings need salving?

You need a brick of salt to read my posts.

I said I take your criticisms of religion with a brick of salt, which is due to the fact that I believe you engage in hyperbole on this topic. That's not a personal attack, that's a basic (and entirely innocuous) observation.

I have issues.

I said that you have issues with religion, just like I'm sure you have issues with other bad things. If I said that "religion is a tremendously negative force: socially, personally, historically, financially, and environmentally," it would be safe to say that I have issues with religion. Not sure how you see that as a personal attack.

I demonize religion in every post.

No, I said you're taking every opportunity to demonize those who don't share your fervor. That was in response to your claim that anyone who worked for a church was just out to get a gullible herd to pay them money, thus neatly attacking both clergymen and those who practice religion. Looking through this thread, I'd say that was pretty spot on.

I'm bitter.

You're bitter toward religion. Are you really going to look at what you've posted in this thread and say that's not an accurate description?

Where have I made personal comments like this about you, and why do you feel entitled to do this, and then complain that the discussion isn't "decent?"

You've said that parishioners (a group you clearly lump me and other posters into) are generally gullible and deluded and that the people leading those churches are hucksters.

I'm pretty clear that if I started dishing these comments back to you, I'd get gigged for it.

Doubtful, but you're entitled to believe whatever you like.

So, do you want to have a civil discussion, that doesn't include personal aspersions, or not?

I think it's clear that there's not much of a point.
 
Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

The wars, the murders.....
The hope given, finding a better way to live......

I say it's done more good than harm. As for the wars murders and all that other ****, if wasn't religion they would have used something else and sometimes religion wrongly gets blamed for stuff.
 
I said I take your criticisms of religion with a brick of salt, which is due to the fact that I believe you engage in hyperbole on this topic. That's not a personal attack, that's a basic (and entirely innocuous) observation.

I said that you have issues with religion, just like I'm sure you have issues with other bad things. If I said that "religion is a tremendously negative force: socially, personally, historically, financially, and environmentally," it would be safe to say that I have issues with religion. Not sure how you see that as a personal attack.

No, I said you're taking every opportunity to demonize those who don't share your fervor. That was in response to your claim that anyone who worked for a church was just out to get a gullible herd to pay them money, thus neatly attacking both clergymen and those who practice religion. Looking through this thread, I'd say that was pretty spot on.

You're bitter toward religion. Are you really going to look at what you've posted in this thread and say that's not an accurate description?

You've said that parishioners (a group you clearly lump me and other posters into) are generally gullible and deluded and that the people leading those churches are hucksters.

Doubtful, but you're entitled to believe whatever you like.

I think it's clear that there's not much of a point.

Clearly there isn't, since you're more interested in discussing me than the topic. ;)
 
I say it's done more good than harm. As for the wars murders and all that other ****, if wasn't religion they would have used something else and sometimes religion wrongly gets blamed for stuff.

I think it goes both ways. I think what cinches it for me is that, if you call all the big stuff a draw, religions still provide comfort and a social network for those who believe. This to me is a strong positive.
 
I think it goes both ways. I think what cinches it for me is that, if you call all the big stuff a draw, religions still provide comfort and a social network for those who believe. This to me is a strong positive.

I think my perspective on religion would likely be far more positive if I didn't live in the Deep South and see it at its worst all the time. I would like to live in a community where I wasn't surrounded by rabid fundamentalists at some point.
 
Religion (not spirituality) has Done More Harm than Good?

The wars, the murders.....
The hope given, finding a better way to live......

There has been so much evil done in the name of religion, equality, etc but it's not the fault of the ideas, it's the individuals who used them to gain power and exploit people.

Ideas have always been the most dangerous weapon.
 
There has been so much evil done in the name of religion, equality, etc but it's not the fault of the ideas, it's the individuals who used them to gain power and exploit people.

Ideas have always been the most dangerous weapon.

i once tried to beat someone to death with an idea, all it did was give me a headache.
 
Back
Top Bottom