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Pledge of Allegiance

george48 said:
That sounds amlmost perfect to me
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I think a healthy kind of patriotism is good...As long as it does not go overboard....and considering your founding documents....That is one, one could be proud of
 
mrjurrs said:
Under God was added because America was so afraid of those godless Soviets in the 1950's. Say the pledge without that phrase, it sounds better. One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
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The first amendment
 
OrphanSlug said:
The fact of the matter is every single founder knew of the concern of a nation leaning theocratic in any regard. It does not matter what any one of them personally believed for their own purposes, every one of them knew it was their individual choice on this matter which is why they phrased things the way they did in documents of importance. Like the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Also, they leaned more community centric over any sense of 'pledge of allegiance' or 'under god' nationalism centric.
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Now, the remainder of this post is factually irrelevant. Why? I didn’t invoke what “any one of them personally believed.” My argument as to the meaning of the Establishment Clause doesn’t have as a foundation “what any one of them personally believed.”
 
george48 said:
My question, to a secular republi is why?

I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....

But notice how it sais "under god"

How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut
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I hate when people become brain dead in order to score political points. This is one those type issues.

The pledge does not promote any particular religion which is what the constitution limits. The gov is not restricted from acknowledging most peoples belief that some form of a god exists.

I am speaking from the perspective of an unapologetic atheist. I can care less if god is included in the pledge, on my money, or if kids take a christmas vacation or the ten commandments are on display in a courthouse. None of those things infringe on my non-belief in a diety.
 
aociswundumho said:
Bellamy was a socialist who understood how important obedience to the state is for socialism to work.
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Nah. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy

"Francis Julius Bellamy (May 18, 1855 – August 28, 1931) was an American Christian socialist minister and author,[1] best known for writing the original version of the US Pledge of Allegiance in 1892."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

An American Christian socialist minister - so how Socialist could he have been?
 
Nickyjo said:
Good grief! Prosecuted for saying Allah, which I am told means God. I guess if he said "dios", the guy would have him deported.
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So I see it as if they try this, there would be some massive protests since nowdays most people support people being able to substitute any God or simply omit that line entirely from their personal pledge of allegiance as a way to justify that it isn't actually religious. If people literally would get prosecuted for doing that, then it is a huge violation of freedom of religion and freedom of speech to have such a law, since it violates those two constitutionally protected rights.
 
southwest88 said:
Nah. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy

"Francis Julius Bellamy (May 18, 1855 – August 28, 1931) was an American Christian socialist minister and author,[1] best known for writing the original version of the US Pledge of Allegiance in 1892."

(My emphasis - more @ the URL)

An American Christian socialist minister - so how Socialist could he have been?
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From your link:

In 1891, Bellamy was "forced from his Boston pulpit for preaching against the evils of capitalism",[3]
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Sounds like a socialist to me, not to mention his collectivism:

On immigration and universal suffrage, Bellamy wrote in the editorial of The Illustrated American, Vol. XXII, No. 394, p. 258: "[a] democracy like ours cannot afford to throw itself open to the world where every man is a lawmaker, every dull-witted or fanatical immigrant admitted to our citizenship is a bane to the commonwealth.”[9] And further: "Where all classes of society merge insensibly into one another every alien immigrant of inferior race may bring corruption to the stock. There are races more or less akin to our own whom we may admit freely and get nothing but advantage by the infusion of their wholesome blood. But there are other races, which we cannot assimilate without lowering our racial standard, which should be as sacred to us as the sanctity of our homes."[13]
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george48 said:
My question, to a secular republi is why?

I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....

But notice how it sais "under god"

How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut
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It was added in the 1950s to distinguish from the godless communists.
 
george48 said:
My question, to a secular republi is why?

I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....

But notice how it sais "under god"

How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut
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This is NOT Necroposting...
This is important... I think...
-Peace
AVvXsEgHQYxoglgcj6NXIV1CC5rSItpeEWQgB6tzFfJ-86XbrEZ8p5okVEhsKUIJnfeHjNR0ka54PDjT_bXfjKA-aaVATYI_Kx83TrjdmMEb_kL2jvjR3SEco9g9ZPYEuVXc91FlygUlO8EaK4nJpVefAHRkKsFuJptB7T9vLDDEYOf5_nKtOksmYg
 
The Pledge has suffered the same fate as the flag - become a litmus test for too many in determining who is a Real American (tm) and who is a communist traitor.

I don't go in for symbolic, largely meaningless displays of loyalty.
 
HangLow said:
This is NOT Necroposting...
This is important... I think...
-Peace
AVvXsEgHQYxoglgcj6NXIV1CC5rSItpeEWQgB6tzFfJ-86XbrEZ8p5okVEhsKUIJnfeHjNR0ka54PDjT_bXfjKA-aaVATYI_Kx83TrjdmMEb_kL2jvjR3SEco9g9ZPYEuVXc91FlygUlO8EaK4nJpVefAHRkKsFuJptB7T9vLDDEYOf5_nKtOksmYg
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I don't understand the reason to say no to them I never thought the founding fathers came up with it, but what's wrong with other people coming up with other ways to express patriotism?
 
Lycanthrope said:
The Pledge has suffered the same fate as the flag - become a litmus test for too many in determining who is a Real American (tm) and who is a communist traitor.

I don't go in for symbolic, largely meaningless displays of loyalty.
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It's one thing to not place sacred meaning on symbols and I agree with that but it's another to say that they're meaningless because they are not sacred. The American flag is a symbol of the United States worldwide whether you like it or not it's not meaningless you can put an American flag on something and people in Bangladesh will know what it means so it is a symbol and it is a meaningful symbol because people decide it has meaning. Words letters and numbers are symbols that we all assume have meaning it's the way we're able to communicate.
 
CLAX1911 said:
It's one thing to not place sacred meaning on symbols and I agree with that but it's another to say that they're meaningless because they are not sacred. The American flag is a symbol of the United States worldwide whether you like it or not it's not meaningless you can put an American flag on something and people in Bangladesh will know what it means so it is a symbol and it is a meaningful symbol because people decide it has meaning. Words letters and numbers are symbols that we all assume have meaning it's the way we're able to communicate.
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Maybe I should clarify - I don't subscribe to the mentality of using national symbols as litmus tests for patriotism.
 
ClaraD said:
there is no law even requiring you to cite the pledge.
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There's no law but I've seen on TV schoolkids lined up between their desks, hands over hearts, pledging allegiance to their nations flag.
I wonder two things- I wonder how many times they recited that pledge before they really understood what the words mean and I wonder how many times the average American recites it by the time he's called an adult.
 
george48 said:
My question, to a secular republi is why?

I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....

But notice how it sais "under god"

How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut
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The pledge sucks.

The US is not a nation and never was and never will be.

The phrase "under God" was added because when the US government screamed, "Bad Evil Dictators!" Americans yawned instead of jerking their knees so hard they busted their noses.

So, the government switched to the more politically correct term, "Godless Commies!" to get that knee-jerk reaction from Americans.

Godless commies coming to take away their god-thing didn't sit well with the Sheeple.
 
Mircea said:
The pledge sucks.

The US is not a nation and never was and never will be.

The phrase "under God" was added because when the US government screamed, "Bad Evil Dictators!" Americans yawned instead of jerking their knees so hard they busted their noses.

So, the government switched to the more politically correct term, "Godless Commies!" to get that knee-jerk reaction from Americans.

Godless commies coming to take away their god-thing didn't sit well with the Sheeple.
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What is the definition of "nation" that guides your statement?
 
Mircea said:
The pledge sucks.

The US is not a nation and never was and never will be.

The phrase "under God" was added because when the US government screamed, "Bad Evil Dictators!" Americans yawned instead of jerking their knees so hard they busted their noses.

So, the government switched to the more politically correct term, "Godless Commies!" to get that knee-jerk reaction from Americans.

Godless commies coming to take away their god-thing didn't sit well with the Sheeple.
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The pledge nor the US does "suck". ...

The idea is to instill patriotism (which any amercian should be proud of their country)

Jefferson, the first amendment....and so on...


Patriotism depends on the Nation...

The US is one of the greatest countries ever....

The ideal of free speech ONLY exists in the USA....

Since I live in western europe, I know we have dumb hate speech laws to limit free speech (much better than most BUT not the US)
....

So long live America
 
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