Then don't say under god... problem solved. You are welcome.My question, to a secular republi is why?
I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....
But notice how it sais "under god"
How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut
sieg heil? You must have had a very different childhood, saying the pledge at school, than I did.The pledge is creepy, nationalist indoctrination and I would be happy to see it eliminated altogether. I know that bothers some patriots to hear, but lots of other nations are perfectly patriotic without this weird sieg heil thing happening every day in school. My children were born in Canada where they had to stand for the national anthem every morning, something I disagreed with it, but fortunately it got phased out in this area by the time my son was 8 years old.
They will never know the insanity of having their parents called in for a parent-teacher intervention because they refused to stand for the pledge with their arm sticking out when they were 14 years old like I did, and being threatened by the principle with expulsion for not complying with classroom rules. They were willing to turf an A student because I wouldn't parrot their patriotic BS on command.
I know it's not that extreme anymore. At least, I hope it's not. I won that battle by the way. I was given permission to leave the room during the pledge, which I did every day.
It's not that I don't love America, but I am not a slave to someone else's ideology. We are supposed to be a free nation. We don't treat adults that way so children shouldn't be treated that way either, especially if they don't have those traditions in their home family life.
The pledge is government indoctrination, plain and simple. Funny enough, the private school I went to later didn't do all that crap. Turns out it's reserved for the public working class schools where they want to turn out as many lemmings as possible.
You know that the flag represents the Constitution and the people that follow it, right?Then we should pledge loyalty to the Constitution, as the Military does.
I do not like the Pledge and do not generally say it. I love the flag - I have a legitimate emotional response to it. But I'm not pledging loyalty to it.
My question, to a secular republi is why?
I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....
But notice how it sais "under god"
How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut
I don't get why people are so hung up on the God thing yet they are perfectly okay with children being forced to do the pledge.
I don't care if the pledge says God or not, I don't want my children indoctrinated with this crap.
We have been through this time and time again.
The pledge of allegiance has been changed and altered several times over, with "under God" not being the first time something along those lines was added to it.
But it was not until the early 1940s that Congress decided to get involved and "recognized officially" the line in question as "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Naturally, that was not good enough.
Groups like the Sons and Daughters of the American Revolution, the Knights of Columbus, and various others added "under God" in how they recite the pledge and of course Congress adopted a new measure. It was damn near bipartisan in support with the likes of Eisenhower in full champion of the idea.
Some would offer this was a stance against the ideologies of the USSR, China, and other communist or socialist powers at the time. Others will offer this was a Christian Conservative stance against prior acts considered anti-Capitalist including the New Deal.
Another bit of irony, up until the time of Nazi Germany the "salute" while reciting the pledge of allegiance was the exact same. Right arm straight out with a flat hand palm down just like the Nazis did, so of course hand over the heart was our solution to that little problem.
Regardless we are stuck with it even though separation of Church and State is a key tenet (or was) of our Republic.
The pledge is creepy, nationalist indoctrination and I would be happy to see it eliminated altogether. I know that bothers some patriots to hear, but lots of other nations are perfectly patriotic without this weird sieg heil thing happening every day in school. My children were born in Canada where they had to stand for the national anthem every morning, something I disagreed with it, but fortunately it got phased out in this area by the time my son was 8 years old.
They will never know the insanity of having their parents called in for a parent-teacher intervention because they refused to stand for the pledge with their arm sticking out when they were 14 years old like I did, and being threatened by the principle with expulsion for not complying with classroom rules. They were willing to turf an A student because I wouldn't parrot their patriotic BS on command.
I know it's not that extreme anymore. At least, I hope it's not. I won that battle by the way. I was given permission to leave the room during the pledge, which I did every day.
It's not that I don't love America, but I am not a slave to someone else's ideology. We are supposed to be a free nation. We don't treat adults that way so children shouldn't be treated that way either, especially if they don't have those traditions in their home family life.
The pledge is government indoctrination, plain and simple. Funny enough, the private school I went to later didn't do all that crap. Turns out it's reserved for the public working class schools where they want to turn out as many lemmings as possible.
without this weird sieg heil
My question, to a secular republi is why?
I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....
But notice how it sais "under god"
How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut
We have been through this time and time again.
The pledge of allegiance has been changed and altered several times over, with "under God" not being the first time something along those lines was added to it.
But it was not until the early 1940s that Congress decided to get involved and "recognized officially" the line in question as "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Naturally, that was not good enough.
Groups like the Sons and Daughters of the American Revolution, the Knights of Columbus, and various others added "under God" in how they recite the pledge and of course Congress adopted a new measure. It was damn near bipartisan in support with the likes of Eisenhower in full champion of the idea.
Some would offer this was a stance against the ideologies of the USSR, China, and other communist or socialist powers at the time. Others will offer this was a Christian Conservative stance against prior acts considered anti-Capitalist including the New Deal.
Regardless we are stuck with it even though separation of Church and State is a key tenet (or was) of our Republic.
Another bit of irony, up until the time of Nazi Germany the "salute" while reciting the pledge of allegiance was the exact same. Right arm straight out with a flat hand palm down just like the Nazis did, so of course hand over the heart was our solution to that little problem.
That was very interesting...Thanks for the education on how it is in canada!A pleasure to know an American who knows their US history. Myself I would tend to say the "under God" was emphasized due to an obsession that time like you said about the cold war and trying to be clearly different than communist states. However no I am not so sure how much clout the Christian political movements at that time had so yah that is an interesting one.
Now I too as a neutral observer wonder why a state system so careful to dettach church from state left that reference in. Its always been interesting for that reason.
In Canada we make an allegiance to the monarch head of state that some people do not like either. We have a Province Quebec that has a large crucifix on the wall of its provincial legislative assembly and yet it passed a law saying if you want to work for the Quebec government you can not wear anything on your body that identifies you as following a certain religion, i.e., turban, hijab yahamcha/skull cap, large crucifix around your neck outside on your chest. Yet they have that cross displayed for all to see in their assembly. Talk about mixed messages.
I would say though if we compared our two legal systems your system is much more careful to separate church from state. In our Canadian laws, provinces have exclusive jurisdiction over education and in Onario for example we have a public school board but we also have a second public school board called the "Catholic School board" because our education system for years never distinguished public schools from either Protestantism or Catholicism as being their major doctrines and Catholic school boards still exist while the Protestant ones turned non denominational. That said non Catholics can go to a public Catholic school and opt out of Catholic prayers or studies but the schools still say the Lord's Prayer in the morning. In public schools when I was a kid (I am 64) we sang God Save the Queen, then Oh Canada, then swore an allegiance to Queen Liz. We had a Union Jack, Canadian flag and since I was in Quebec a Quebec flag. Then on weekends I had to go to Saturday or Sunday school at my synagoge and they had the Union Jack, flag of Canada, Quebec flag, City of Montreal flag and Israeli flag and we sang the Israeli anthem but only after God Save the Queen, Oh Canada and swore allegiance to Canada through Elizabeth as it was clear any connection to Israeli came AFTER our oath to Canada not before it. All these balancing of oaths and messages never bothered me.
Where I grew up the true religion and "Chosen people" were the Montreal Canadiens hockey club and our Gods were former hockey greats like Rocket Richard and I do not mean that in a blasphamous way but in a practical way. Didn't mattrer who you were and what you were, once the Canadiens (Habs) got on the ice, that was what we all rallied around. It really unified everyone unlike anything I saw and still does.
sieg heil? You must have had a very different childhood, saying the pledge at school, than I did.
A Nazi one?It's called an analogy.
Brb gonna go throw up-snip for brevity-
Regardless we are stuck with it even though separation of Church and State is a key tenet (or was) of our Republic.
Another bit of irony, up until the time of Nazi Germany the "salute" while reciting the pledge of allegiance was the exact same. Right arm straight out with a flat hand palm down just like the Nazis did, so of course hand over the heart was our solution to that little problem.
We have been through this time and time again.
The pledge of allegiance has been changed and altered several times over, with "under God" not being the first time something along those lines was added to it.
But it was not until the early 1940s that Congress decided to get involved and "recognized officially" the line in question as "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Naturally, that was not good enough.
Groups like the Sons and Daughters of the American Revolution, the Knights of Columbus, and various others added "under God" in how they recite the pledge and of course Congress adopted a new measure. It was damn near bipartisan in support with the likes of Eisenhower in full champion of the idea.
Some would offer this was a stance against the ideologies of the USSR, China, and other communist or socialist powers at the time. Others will offer this was a Christian Conservative stance against prior acts considered anti-Capitalist including the New Deal.
Regardless we are stuck with it even though separation of Church and State is a key tenet (or was) of our Republic.
Another bit of irony, up until the time of Nazi Germany the "salute" while reciting the pledge of allegiance was the exact same. Right arm straight out with a flat hand palm down just like the Nazis did, so of course hand over the heart was our solution to that little problem.[/}
The words "the flag" and "of" should be dropped. Pledge allegiance to the nation, not the flag.
"Under God" was added by Nixon claiming this was to contrast the godless U.S.S.R. in his opinion.
Many US historians would say Nixon and the cold war yes indeed influenced that becaiuse of on-going competition with the USSR so yes did push for it for that reason. The solid networking of Christians when it comes to lobbying I think on this one was also a help but it wasn't just the strong Christian alliance but people of other religions too and it was at a time ofanti communist sentiment running high and people looking to God to protect them from nuclear war. Religion tends to play a part in politics during crisis but not when times are going good and no one feels threatened. You notice when there is a catsatrophe or crisis, religion suddenly is called upon ny politicians to unify people.
Your Messiah Donald Trump send some confusing messages but what became clear to the conventional Christian network responsible for many Republicans getting elected is they grew tired of his behaviour and rhetoric.
How anyone could call themselves a good Christian and see no contradiction with Trump in how he behaved in his life and the choices he made are beyond me. Trump is as close as one gets to a Godless totalitarian preaching himself as God.
God with a fake tan and small hands. Buh bye Donny. See you in hell.
Back to the point 7th Day Adventists, Jehova's Witnesses preferred going to concentration camps to die rather than swear an allegiance to Hitler. For we Jews especially related to holocaust victims the irony is not missed on why they died along side us. Never.
I remember when under god was added. I was 11 or 12 and I was already starting to have my doubts about god. It becomes more inappropriate as time passes.Thank you. Very informative. I just love the ideal of a secular republic where everybody is free to have any religion they want (or none at all)...so it always struck me as weird to have "under god" in there...but Yeah....Thanks for the education!
Secular does not mean that their is a denial of a god. Secular means that no one particular religion has any more importance or influence over the governmentMy question, to a secular republi is why?
I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....
But notice how it sais "under god"
How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut
What a stupid post. Why do you so want to be "edgy" that you'll accuse a Jew of anti-Semitism and wanting Israel destroyed?Since you claim expertise on Christianity and Christians, what seminary did you attend and what denomination are you? How many times a week do you go to church?
Do you have a poster of Beijing Moscow Biden and Xi Jinping together on your bedroom wall? Hide a swastika tattoo under your shirt? How many times a day do you pray to Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates?
Why do you most of you Democrats so hate Jews that you want Israel destroyed and want to import Jew-hating Muslims into the USA by the millions? Is that part of you interpretation of YOUR intense Christian belief system you claim expertise in?