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Pledge of Allegiance

My question, to a secular republi is why?

I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....

But notice how it sais "under god"

How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut
Then don't say under god... problem solved. You are welcome.
 
The pledge is creepy, nationalist indoctrination and I would be happy to see it eliminated altogether. I know that bothers some patriots to hear, but lots of other nations are perfectly patriotic without this weird sieg heil thing happening every day in school. My children were born in Canada where they had to stand for the national anthem every morning, something I disagreed with it, but fortunately it got phased out in this area by the time my son was 8 years old.

They will never know the insanity of having their parents called in for a parent-teacher intervention because they refused to stand for the pledge with their arm sticking out when they were 14 years old like I did, and being threatened by the principle with expulsion for not complying with classroom rules. They were willing to turf an A student because I wouldn't parrot their patriotic BS on command.

I know it's not that extreme anymore. At least, I hope it's not. I won that battle by the way. I was given permission to leave the room during the pledge, which I did every day.

It's not that I don't love America, but I am not a slave to someone else's ideology. We are supposed to be a free nation. We don't treat adults that way so children shouldn't be treated that way either, especially if they don't have those traditions in their home family life.

The pledge is government indoctrination, plain and simple. Funny enough, the private school I went to later didn't do all that crap. Turns out it's reserved for the public working class schools where they want to turn out as many lemmings as possible.
sieg heil? You must have had a very different childhood, saying the pledge at school, than I did.
 
Then we should pledge loyalty to the Constitution, as the Military does.

I do not like the Pledge and do not generally say it. I love the flag - I have a legitimate emotional response to it. But I'm not pledging loyalty to it.
You know that the flag represents the Constitution and the people that follow it, right?
 
My question, to a secular republi is why?

I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....

But notice how it sais "under god"

How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut

Because we are very much an anti-intellectual country on top of everything else. We still subscribe to superstitions like the pledge.
 
I don't get why people are so hung up on the God thing yet they are perfectly okay with children being forced to do the pledge.

I don't care if the pledge says God or not, I don't want my children indoctrinated with this crap.

Same. My kid thinks for himself. I don’t want schools forcing children to obediently recite allegiance to anything.
 
We have been through this time and time again.

The pledge of allegiance has been changed and altered several times over, with "under God" not being the first time something along those lines was added to it.

But it was not until the early 1940s that Congress decided to get involved and "recognized officially" the line in question as "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Naturally, that was not good enough.

Groups like the Sons and Daughters of the American Revolution, the Knights of Columbus, and various others added "under God" in how they recite the pledge and of course Congress adopted a new measure. It was damn near bipartisan in support with the likes of Eisenhower in full champion of the idea.

Some would offer this was a stance against the ideologies of the USSR, China, and other communist or socialist powers at the time. Others will offer this was a Christian Conservative stance against prior acts considered anti-Capitalist including the New Deal.

Another bit of irony, up until the time of Nazi Germany the "salute" while reciting the pledge of allegiance was the exact same. Right arm straight out with a flat hand palm down just like the Nazis did, so of course hand over the heart was our solution to that little problem.

Regardless we are stuck with it even though separation of Church and State is a key tenet (or was) of our Republic.

Was? Is? The phrase finds its genesis in a letter from Jefferson to some Baptists. However, Jefferson doesn’t decide or determine what the Establishment Clause says or means. Before Jefferson wrote the letter, the historical practice of the men who wrote and ratified the 1st Amendment, including the EC, had approved opening Congress with prayer, approved the use of chaplains, and payment for the chaplains.

George Washington declared a day of prayer and fasting in 1795. Adams did as well in 1798, followed by Madison and many other Presidents.

This is but some of the substantial amount of evidence “separation of church and state” was more fiction than reality as it pertained to the EC.
 
The pledge is creepy, nationalist indoctrination and I would be happy to see it eliminated altogether. I know that bothers some patriots to hear, but lots of other nations are perfectly patriotic without this weird sieg heil thing happening every day in school. My children were born in Canada where they had to stand for the national anthem every morning, something I disagreed with it, but fortunately it got phased out in this area by the time my son was 8 years old.

They will never know the insanity of having their parents called in for a parent-teacher intervention because they refused to stand for the pledge with their arm sticking out when they were 14 years old like I did, and being threatened by the principle with expulsion for not complying with classroom rules. They were willing to turf an A student because I wouldn't parrot their patriotic BS on command.

I know it's not that extreme anymore. At least, I hope it's not. I won that battle by the way. I was given permission to leave the room during the pledge, which I did every day.

It's not that I don't love America, but I am not a slave to someone else's ideology. We are supposed to be a free nation. We don't treat adults that way so children shouldn't be treated that way either, especially if they don't have those traditions in their home family life.

The pledge is government indoctrination, plain and simple. Funny enough, the private school I went to later didn't do all that crap. Turns out it's reserved for the public working class schools where they want to turn out as many lemmings as possible.

without this weird sieg heil

Whatever rational point you hoped to make, you sabotaged it with that stupid analogy.

Regardless, there’s a rational basis for rituals like the pledge.
 
My question, to a secular republi is why?

I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....

But notice how it sais "under god"

How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut

I have never liked reciting the pledge, reminds me of fascism or communism too much. Forced allegiance pledges do not make me proud, they make me afraid.
 
The pledge to the flag, as I underatand it, is to the American ideal...The American promise...The first amendment. The constitution. A secular republic with the promise of freedom.

The constitution and the American ideal is just awesome and unmatched in my view. No country is perfect...but the founding ideal of your great country, namely liberty and freedom, as outlined in the constitution, is worth celebrating.

No need for "under god"

But celebrating the American ideal of liberty...Yeah...I think it worth it...Very much
 
If I am loyal, it is an insult to demand I take a brand new oath every single day.

If I am disloyal, I'm just gonna lie and say the pledge whenever I am asked, because why not?

It's meaningless, mindless conditioning.
 
We have been through this time and time again.

The pledge of allegiance has been changed and altered several times over, with "under God" not being the first time something along those lines was added to it.

But it was not until the early 1940s that Congress decided to get involved and "recognized officially" the line in question as "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Naturally, that was not good enough.

Groups like the Sons and Daughters of the American Revolution, the Knights of Columbus, and various others added "under God" in how they recite the pledge and of course Congress adopted a new measure. It was damn near bipartisan in support with the likes of Eisenhower in full champion of the idea.

Some would offer this was a stance against the ideologies of the USSR, China, and other communist or socialist powers at the time. Others will offer this was a Christian Conservative stance against prior acts considered anti-Capitalist including the New Deal.

Regardless we are stuck with it even though separation of Church and State is a key tenet (or was) of our Republic.

Another bit of irony, up until the time of Nazi Germany the "salute" while reciting the pledge of allegiance was the exact same. Right arm straight out with a flat hand palm down just like the Nazis did, so of course hand over the heart was our solution to that little problem.

A pleasure to know an American who knows their US history. Myself I would tend to say the "under God" was emphasized due to an obsession that time like you said about the cold war and trying to be clearly different than communist states. However no I am not so sure how much clout the Christian political movements at that time had so yah that is an interesting one.

Now I too as a neutral observer wonder why a state system so careful to dettach church from state left that reference in. Its always been interesting for that reason.

In Canada we make an allegiance to the monarch head of state that some people do not like either. We have a Province Quebec that has a large crucifix on the wall of its provincial legislative assembly and yet it passed a law saying if you want to work for the Quebec government you can not wear anything on your body that identifies you as following a certain religion, i.e., turban, hijab yahamcha/skull cap, large crucifix around your neck outside on your chest. Yet they have that cross displayed for all to see in their assembly. Talk about mixed messages.

I would say though if we compared our two legal systems your system is much more careful to separate church from state. In our Canadian laws, provinces have exclusive jurisdiction over education and in Onario for example we have a public school board but we also have a second public school board called the "Catholic School board" because our education system for years never distinguished public schools from either Protestantism or Catholicism as being their major doctrines and Catholic school boards still exist while the Protestant ones turned non denominational. That said non Catholics can go to a public Catholic school and opt out of Catholic prayers or studies but the schools still say the Lord's Prayer in the morning. In public schools when I was a kid (I am 64) we sang God Save the Queen, then Oh Canada, then swore an allegiance to Queen Liz. We had a Union Jack, Canadian flag and since I was in Quebec a Quebec flag. Then on weekends I had to go to Saturday or Sunday school at my synagoge and they had the Union Jack, flag of Canada, Quebec flag, City of Montreal flag and Israeli flag and we sang the Israeli anthem but only after God Save the Queen, Oh Canada and swore allegiance to Canada through Elizabeth as it was clear any connection to Israeli came AFTER our oath to Canada not before it. All these balancing of oaths and messages never bothered me.

Where I grew up the true religion and "Chosen people" were the Montreal Canadiens hockey club and our Gods were former hockey greats like Rocket Richard and I do not mean that in a blasphamous way but in a practical way. Didn't mattrer who you were and what you were, once the Canadiens (Habs) got on the ice, that was what we all rallied around. It really unified everyone unlike anything I saw and still does.
 
The words "the flag" and "of" should be dropped. Pledge allegiance to the nation, not the flag.

"Under God" was added by Nixon claiming this was to contrast the godless U.S.S.R. in his opinion.
 
America is pretty awesome.

The secular nature of the American Republic, for instance, is one of the many things to celebtate about America. In europe, we have blasphemy laws for example...In the USA you have the beautiful first amendment...Freedom of speech in general is just so much stronger in America than in europe (of course, it is pretty damn good in europe too...certainly when compared worldwide and a lot of european nations are pretty great in general too...)

Well, of course, no country is perfect...Certainly not all leaders of countries throughout history are perfect or help advance the ideals of freedom and justice for all in the same way...obviously...And all countries have better and worse days...But I do think the USA stands for freedom and justice as ideals, as outlined in the constitution...like every country, those high values were not always lived up to...

BUT I definatly think the USA has stood and still stands for freedom and justice as ideals. (even when not lived up to all the time) America is a very amazing country.

America has done a lot of good in the world: It has freed europe from Hitler, beat back communist expansion and did many more good things...(Like every country, not every single one of America's actions throughout history were great, or without mistakes or wrongdoings by certain individuals, obviously...but a lot were great. Every countries history is not just peaches and cream and obviously, injustices were commited...The world is a nuanced place)...

But that spirit of liberty and justice as ideals, as outlined in the constitution, is what the flag and hence America respresents. That spirit, stuff like the first amendment, is what makes America so awesome and maybe the greatest country in the world. People like Jefferson and Lincoln for example are what makes America so awesome. And that spirit of liberty is pretty inspiring.

Have a nice day, y'all!
 
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A pleasure to know an American who knows their US history. Myself I would tend to say the "under God" was emphasized due to an obsession that time like you said about the cold war and trying to be clearly different than communist states. However no I am not so sure how much clout the Christian political movements at that time had so yah that is an interesting one.

Now I too as a neutral observer wonder why a state system so careful to dettach church from state left that reference in. Its always been interesting for that reason.

In Canada we make an allegiance to the monarch head of state that some people do not like either. We have a Province Quebec that has a large crucifix on the wall of its provincial legislative assembly and yet it passed a law saying if you want to work for the Quebec government you can not wear anything on your body that identifies you as following a certain religion, i.e., turban, hijab yahamcha/skull cap, large crucifix around your neck outside on your chest. Yet they have that cross displayed for all to see in their assembly. Talk about mixed messages.

I would say though if we compared our two legal systems your system is much more careful to separate church from state. In our Canadian laws, provinces have exclusive jurisdiction over education and in Onario for example we have a public school board but we also have a second public school board called the "Catholic School board" because our education system for years never distinguished public schools from either Protestantism or Catholicism as being their major doctrines and Catholic school boards still exist while the Protestant ones turned non denominational. That said non Catholics can go to a public Catholic school and opt out of Catholic prayers or studies but the schools still say the Lord's Prayer in the morning. In public schools when I was a kid (I am 64) we sang God Save the Queen, then Oh Canada, then swore an allegiance to Queen Liz. We had a Union Jack, Canadian flag and since I was in Quebec a Quebec flag. Then on weekends I had to go to Saturday or Sunday school at my synagoge and they had the Union Jack, flag of Canada, Quebec flag, City of Montreal flag and Israeli flag and we sang the Israeli anthem but only after God Save the Queen, Oh Canada and swore allegiance to Canada through Elizabeth as it was clear any connection to Israeli came AFTER our oath to Canada not before it. All these balancing of oaths and messages never bothered me.

Where I grew up the true religion and "Chosen people" were the Montreal Canadiens hockey club and our Gods were former hockey greats like Rocket Richard and I do not mean that in a blasphamous way but in a practical way. Didn't mattrer who you were and what you were, once the Canadiens (Habs) got on the ice, that was what we all rallied around. It really unified everyone unlike anything I saw and still does.
That was very interesting...Thanks for the education on how it is in canada!

In my home, in europe, things vary greatly, but most countries have kids say prayers before class and take classes on religion... In my country, I for instance had to say a prayer each morning before class...in elementary school...not later on, thank god ;)

I have always admired America for their secularism and sharp seperation of church and state...So I was really curious, as a foreigner too, why that under god stuff is in there...

'Cos otherwise, as a european, I really like the pledge, or the idea behind it...I think having a healthy sense of patriotism and love for your country is great...(Of course it depends on the country, but America, with it's founding ideals, that unfortunately where not always lived up to, of liberty and justice is worth being patriotic about) Now of course patriotism should never move towards nationalism...We have seen that disaster time and time again. (as a european I shoud know) And criticising one's country when it is wrong is important too...But pride in the ideals of your country, if they are great, is good I think.

And the wording going "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" I also just really like for obvious reasons...
 
-snip for brevity-

Regardless we are stuck with it even though separation of Church and State is a key tenet (or was) of our Republic.

Another bit of irony, up until the time of Nazi Germany the "salute" while reciting the pledge of allegiance was the exact same. Right arm straight out with a flat hand palm down just like the Nazis did, so of course hand over the heart was our solution to that little problem.
Brb gonna go throw up
 
We have been through this time and time again.

The pledge of allegiance has been changed and altered several times over, with "under God" not being the first time something along those lines was added to it.

But it was not until the early 1940s that Congress decided to get involved and "recognized officially" the line in question as "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Naturally, that was not good enough.

Groups like the Sons and Daughters of the American Revolution, the Knights of Columbus, and various others added "under God" in how they recite the pledge and of course Congress adopted a new measure. It was damn near bipartisan in support with the likes of Eisenhower in full champion of the idea.

Some would offer this was a stance against the ideologies of the USSR, China, and other communist or socialist powers at the time. Others will offer this was a Christian Conservative stance against prior acts considered anti-Capitalist including the New Deal.

Regardless we are stuck with it even though separation of Church and State is a key tenet (or was) of our Republic.

Another bit of irony, up until the time of Nazi Germany the "salute" while reciting the pledge of allegiance was the exact same. Right arm straight out with a flat hand palm down just like the Nazis did, so of course hand over the heart was our solution to that little problem.[/}



I was totally unaware of the last part, but after looking, I see you are correct. Not very wellpublicized in my time here....

 
The words "the flag" and "of" should be dropped. Pledge allegiance to the nation, not the flag.

"Under God" was added by Nixon claiming this was to contrast the godless U.S.S.R. in his opinion.

Many US historians would say Nixon and the cold war yes indeed influenced that becaiuse of on-going competition with the USSR so yes did push for it for that reason. The solid networking of Christians when it comes to lobbying I think on this one was also a help but it wasn't just the strong Christian alliance but people of other religions too and it was at a time ofanti communist sentiment running high and people looking to God to protect them from nuclear war. Religion tends to play a part in politics during crisis but not when times are going good and no one feels threatened. You notice when there is a catsatrophe or crisis, religion suddenly is called upon ny politicians to unify people.

Your Messiah Donald Trump send some confusing messages but what became clear to the conventional Christian network responsible for many Republicans getting elected is they grew tired of his behaviour and rhetoric.

How anyone could call themselves a good Christian and see no contradiction with Trump in how he behaved in his life and the choices he made are beyond me. Trump is as close as one gets to a Godless totalitarian preaching himself as God.

God with a fake tan and small hands. Buh bye Donny. See you in hell.

Back to the point 7th Day Adventists, Jehova's Witnesses preferred going to concentration camps to die rather than swear an allegiance to Hitler. For we Jews especially related to holocaust victims the irony is not missed on why they died along side us. Never.
 
Many US historians would say Nixon and the cold war yes indeed influenced that becaiuse of on-going competition with the USSR so yes did push for it for that reason. The solid networking of Christians when it comes to lobbying I think on this one was also a help but it wasn't just the strong Christian alliance but people of other religions too and it was at a time ofanti communist sentiment running high and people looking to God to protect them from nuclear war. Religion tends to play a part in politics during crisis but not when times are going good and no one feels threatened. You notice when there is a catsatrophe or crisis, religion suddenly is called upon ny politicians to unify people.

Your Messiah Donald Trump send some confusing messages but what became clear to the conventional Christian network responsible for many Republicans getting elected is they grew tired of his behaviour and rhetoric.

How anyone could call themselves a good Christian and see no contradiction with Trump in how he behaved in his life and the choices he made are beyond me. Trump is as close as one gets to a Godless totalitarian preaching himself as God.

God with a fake tan and small hands. Buh bye Donny. See you in hell.

Back to the point 7th Day Adventists, Jehova's Witnesses preferred going to concentration camps to die rather than swear an allegiance to Hitler. For we Jews especially related to holocaust victims the irony is not missed on why they died along side us. Never.

Since you claim expertise on Christianity and Christians, what seminary did you attend and what denomination are you? How many times a week do you go to church?

Do you have a poster of Beijing Moscow Biden and Xi Jinping together on your bedroom wall? Hide a swastika tattoo under your shirt? How many times a day do you pray to Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates?

Why do you most of you Democrats so hate Jews that you want Israel destroyed and want to import Jew-hating Muslims into the USA by the millions? Is that part of you interpretation of YOUR intense Christian belief system you claim expertise in?
 
Thank you. Very informative. I just love the ideal of a secular republic where everybody is free to have any religion they want (or none at all)...so it always struck me as weird to have "under god" in there...but Yeah....Thanks for the education!
I remember when under god was added. I was 11 or 12 and I was already starting to have my doubts about god. It becomes more inappropriate as time passes.
 
My question, to a secular republi is why?

I love the pledge...(I pledge allegiance to the flag and the republic for which it stands, one Nation under....

But notice how it sais "under god"

How about your countries promise to have a seperation of Church and State as Jefferson wrote to bapitsts conetticut
Secular does not mean that their is a denial of a god. Secular means that no one particular religion has any more importance or influence over the government
 
Since you claim expertise on Christianity and Christians, what seminary did you attend and what denomination are you? How many times a week do you go to church?

Do you have a poster of Beijing Moscow Biden and Xi Jinping together on your bedroom wall? Hide a swastika tattoo under your shirt? How many times a day do you pray to Jeff Bezos and Bill Gates?

Why do you most of you Democrats so hate Jews that you want Israel destroyed and want to import Jew-hating Muslims into the USA by the millions? Is that part of you interpretation of YOUR intense Christian belief system you claim expertise in?
What a stupid post. Why do you so want to be "edgy" that you'll accuse a Jew of anti-Semitism and wanting Israel destroyed?
What's wrong with you?
 
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