Omniscient & Omnipotent ???

[Daisy]

Intentionally or otherwise, you just admitted that God’s omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence power is at the mercy of man’s free will.

In other words, God has no such traits and is at the mercy of his own creation.

What a waste.

No, I did not...God has the ability to exercise that power any way He sees fit, not how you say...the real waste is you not taking the time to read the scriptures I quoted...

 

[dairyair]

Yes, you have...you've redefined God and how the Bible describes Him...

No, that's you to fit your personal narrative.
Omniscient is very well defined.

If you don't believe it's omniscient, fine.

 

[Daisy]

No, that's you to fit your personal narrative.
Omniscient is very well defined.

If you don't believe it's omniscient, fine.

So is God...

 

[OrphanSlug]

No, I did not...God has the ability to exercise that power any way He sees fit, not how you say...

Yet, does not. Showcasing what an absolute homicidal lunatic and sadist your God must be.

 

[dairyair]

So is God...

Again, fine if you don't believe it to be omniscient.

Everyone makes up their own definition of god. It's how they justify their belief.

 

[Valery]

Again, fine if you don't believe it to be omniscient.

Everyone makes up their own definition of god. It's how they justify their belief.

That's exactly how disbelievers often justify their disbelief. First they define God in false terms and then they reject that.

 

[HK.227]

When your god created the heavens and the Earth, did he know that Adolph Hitler would be born in 1889, and grow up to become the maniac he became?
Before Adam and Eve picked that apple, did your god know Americans would invent the atomic bomb and drop it on Japan, twice, in 1945?
Before a pandemic like Covid-19 breaks out, does your god already know exactly how many, and exactly who will die from it, and when?

If he wanted to. Logically, omnipotence would include the option to not be omnipotent or omniscient (or logical for that matter).

Questions to you.
- What is the worst thing you can imagine happening?
- If the possibility of that thing occurring was erased from existence, what would then become the new worst thing?
- When that happened, what are the odds you would immediately ask why God allowed the new worst thing to happen?
- And finally, what do you think the mortal experience would be like without the possibility of discomfort or mortality?

 

[Valery]

You don't get to redefine the word omniscient to fit your narrative.
It's all knowing. Not selective knowing.

Some Christians don't consider God to be all-knowing. The Bible does say God is all-knowing, but it also says at Genesis 6:6 "The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

 

[Dragonfly]

That's exactly how disbelievers often justify their disbelief.

You really need to stop making up these little lies and posting them as if they're facts.

 

[Dragonfly]

Some Christians don't consider God to be all-knowing. The Bible does say God is all-knowing, but it also says at Genesis 6:6 "The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

So, no omniscience?

 

[Dragonfly]

If he wanted to. Logically, omnipotence would include the option to not be omnipotent or omniscient (or logical for that matter).

Not seeing the logic there. Care to explain a bit more?

If you know everything, you can't really chose to just not know. Can you?

 

[Dragonfly]

Questions to you.
- What is the worst thing you can imagine happening?
- If the possibility of that thing occurring was erased from existence, what would then become the new worst thing?
- When that happened, what are the odds you would immediately ask why God allowed the new worst thing to happen?
- And finally, what do you think the mortal experience would be like without the possibility of discomfort or mortality?

- What is the worst thing you can imagine happening?
Death of my entire family except me.

- If the possibility of that thing occurring was erased from existence, what would then become the new worst thing?
Death of one of my kids.

- When that happened, what are the odds you would immediately ask why God allowed the new worst thing to happen?
I wouldn't ask that as I don't believe there's a god doing these things, or not doing these things.

- And finally, what do you think the mortal experience would be like without the possibility of discomfort or mortality?
Never ever said I'd like to live forever. How can you have a mortal experience if you're immortal?
Also, never said discomfort was always a bad thing. Feeling no pain would have a whole host of issues associated with it. Never asked for that either.

 

[Dragonfly]

If he wanted to.

If he wanted to?

Really?

So the entire known Universe, and all the life in it including what's here on Earth might just be "god" closing his eyes and throwing a single dart at some kind of huge dart board hoping for a bullseye, but missing that mark?

 

[Valery]

You really need to stop making up these little lies and posting them as if they're facts.

If that were what it was — no.

 

[Dragonfly]

That's exactly how disbelievers often justify their disbelief. First they define God in false terms and then they reject that.

Okay.

So, you must admit that you don't believe in hundreds of gods. Right?

Zues, Apollo, Shiva, ....

Did you define them all with false terms and then reject them?

There's a saying that goes something like this.

We both don't believe in many many many gods. I just happen to not believe in one more than you.

So you too are a disbeliever in many gods. Are you not?

 

[zyzygy]

That's exactly how disbelievers often justify their disbelief. First they define God in false terms and then they reject that.

Describe these false terms. Would they be the same false terms that I use to define, elves, goblins and leprechauns?

 

[HK.227]

Not seeing the logic there. Care to explain a bit more?
If you know everything, you can't really chose to just not know. Can you?

There is a big difference between omniscience and omnipotence.

Omnipotence is the ability to do anything, including things not logically possible.
Like creating a stone so large you can't lift it, and then lift it despite it being unliftable, to butcher an oft-referred logical paradox. Or walking on water. Or creating wine from water. There is really no difference between them, they only work if you eliminate the logical inhibitions we take for granted.

Omniscience is knowing everything. Including what you yourself are going to do.
But if you already know what you are going to do, then by the rules of logic you have no possibility of doing otherwise, and so in effect have no free will. You can't even ponder your position, because you already know what you are going to think. I doubt if you could even be said to have real consciousness as we understand it. Unless of course you are also omnipotent, are the one who created the rules of logic, and decided they wouldn't apply to you unless you so chose. Then the occasional absence of logic is only logical.

I wouldn't ask that as I don't believe there's a god doing these things, or not doing these things.

I would say that anyone who asks that question in the first place is 100% likely to ask it again later.
There is always something that is the worst imaginable thing in the universe. If the worst thing goes away, the second worst becomes the worst one, and so on and so on until the worst thing in the universe is getting a drop of water on your sneakers, at which point there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth. But that would seem a bit ridiculous, no? So if someone benevolent had the power to decide what the worst thing in the universe was, it would probably be set at something pretty horrific; not so horrific that it would make us unable to exist, but horrific enough that the mortal experience and free will was worthwhile when balanced with the good stuff we also get to have.
Or to butcher yet another quote: In order to appreciate light, we must also be aware of darkness.

So the entire known Universe, and all the life in it including what's here on Earth might just be "god" closing his eyes and throwing a single dart at some kind of huge dart board hoping for a bullseye, but missing that mark?

Might be. Omnipotence offers some pretty wide possibilities.

 

[Valery]

Describe these false terms. Would they be the same false terms that I use to define, elves, goblins and leprechauns?

For example

• thinking that for there to be God, he would have to want to make your life easy
• that God that is all good, must give you everything you want
• that God would not let bad things happen
• that God cannot care about humans
• that we would need to be able to understand why God created us for there to be a reason

 

[Valery]

Okay.

So, you must admit that you don't believe in hundreds of gods. Right?

Zues, Apollo, Shiva, ....

Did you define them all with false terms and then reject them?

There's a saying that goes something like this.

We both don't believe in many many many gods. I just happen to not believe in one more than you.

So you too are a disbeliever in many gods. Are you not?

There is only one God.

 

[Dragonfly]

There is only one God.

Trying to deflect aren't ya? :mrgreen:

So you admit to rejecting all the notions, beliefs, or claims of other gods.
Including all the religious scriptures pertaining to those other gods.

In doing so, did you "define those gods using false terms" so that you could reject them?

 

[OlNate]

Is your god both omniscient, and omnipotent?

I mean, that's part of what being a god is all about isn't it?
On some level?

For example:

When your god created the heavens and the Earth, did he know that Adolph Hitler would be born in 1889, and grow up to become the maniac he became?
Before Adam and Eve picked that apple, did your god know Americans would invent the atomic bomb and drop it on Japan, twice, in 1945?
Before a pandemic like Covid-19 breaks out, does your god already know exactly how many, and exactly who will die from it, and when?

The heart of your question is something I struggle with all the time...especially lately. Especially right now. I think a lot of Christians do - submitting to authority, in whatever form it takes, isn't mutually exclusive with questioning authority. How do we celebrate and worship a God, who builds such suffering and tragedy into his cosmic plan? The more you understand about what the Bible says about God's power, the more you wonder why he tolerates such misery in his creation.

I wish I had an upbeat note to end on, some way to tie it back to something that makes sense or feels good. I don't. I am, as a Christian, perplexed. But, then, I'm also perplexed at what human nature is capable of. Life has been very perplexing lately, hasn't it?

 

[watsup]

For example

• thinking that for there to be God, he would have to want to make your life easy
• that God that is all good, must give you everything you want
• that God would not let bad things happen
• that God cannot care about humans
• that we would need to be able to understand why God created us for there to be a reason

There is a simple answer to why there seems to be so much illogical about "God", and that is because it is a manmade creation, that is why the believers have to spend so much time in apologism, trying to make square blocks fit into round holes. One lame excuse after another to try to "explain" why there is such illogic when referencing "God".

 

[Daisy]

That's exactly how disbelievers often justify their disbelief. First they define God in false terms and then they reject that.

True, if you're gonna define God, at least refer to the texts that describe Him 1st...SMH...

 

[Daisy]

Some Christians don't consider God to be all-knowing. The Bible does say God is all-knowing, but it also says at Genesis 6:6 "The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

Which definitely proves God has the ability to use that power in any way He chooses, in spite of what disbelievers make up in their heads...

 

[Daisy]

If he wanted to. Logically, omnipotence would include the option to not be omnipotent or omniscient (or logical for that matter).

Questions to you.
- What is the worst thing you can imagine happening?
- If the possibility of that thing occurring was erased from existence, what would then become the new worst thing?
- When that happened, what are the odds you would immediately ask why God allowed the new worst thing to happen?
- And finally, what do you think the mortal experience would be like without the possibility of discomfort or mortality?

Silly imperfect humans...with them it's all or nothing...:2razz: