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Ok, I was WRONG.

Howler63 said:
?
Now the question becomes...why isn't this information being put out to counteract the BLM folks? And why would the President say that there is a systemic racism?
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I remember how he leveled accusations against the TEA party for using "violent rhetoric" right after the Gabby Giffords got shot, yet some folks associated with BLM speak wit graphic detail about what should happen to cops and he doesn't just keep quiet, he adds his own voice about just how racist and wrong the cops are. As I said in another thread, if the TEA party bore some responsibility for the killings in Arizona, then he shares some responsibility for this.
 
Henrin said:
Why do they have to be? The vast majority of the time people interact no one is hurt, but we don't say silly things like crime is insignificant because of it.
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I said STATISTICALLY insignificant. Meaning, it's not indicative of all POLICE/PUBLIC interactions. Just as all blacks don't kill each other. BUT...the number of blacks shooting each other is WAY higher than the number of cops shooting blacks.

If you really want to make that comparrison, let's do some math, shall we?


Killed by police in 2014: 238 Black Americans killed by police in 2014 outnumbered those who died on 9/11

Killed by other blacks in 2014: 2205 https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...f_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls


Nearly TEN times the rate. Is this a comparison you REALLY want to make?
 
Henrin said:
Using that logic I can say Black on black crime is not a problem since the majority of the time blacks interact no crime happens. Lol
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Does being a shooter or a receiver of the shot count as interaction? [i.e. drive-bys]
 
Howler63 said:
I said STATISTICALLY insignificant. Meaning, it's not indicative of all POLICE/PUBLIC interactions. Just as all blacks don't kill each other. BUT...the number of blacks shooting each other is WAY higher than the number of cops shooting blacks.

If you really want to make that comparrison, let's do some math, shall we?


Killed by police in 2014: 238 Black Americans killed by police in 2014 outnumbered those who died on 9/11

Killed by other blacks in 2014: 2205 https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/u...f_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls


Nearly TEN times the rate. Is this a comparison you REALLY want to make?
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Did you look at the amount of times blacks interact like you did with police interacting with citizens?
 
calamity said:
Did you read my earlier assertion? I said his morbid obesity probably had more to do with his death than the choke hold. The coroner found no damage to his windpipe or neckbones. Gardner died because he could not regain his breath after the choke was released due to exertion resulting from the fight with cops, all of which came about because of his resistance to arrest.
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Would he have died if someone didn't have him in a choke hold?
 
Howler63 said:
I posted earlier today that 1200 deaths last year from police shootings was horrendous and that is represents a bigger problem of police militarization. I was wrong. The numbers do NOT bear that out.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp08.pdf

According to the Justice department, there were abound 40 million interactions between police and citizens for the last year the data has been crunched. Which, by the way, is a decrease from the year before. based on that number, the total number of citizens killed by the police is .0003. What in normally called statistically insignificant. Now I'd love to see some new numbers, but I can't imagine that they'd be vastly different except for actually being lower.

For the most part, far and away, the police are professional, courteous and fair. There is no evidence to support the notion that they are systemically racist or violent toward any racial group.

Now, are there tragedies? Yes. Alton Sterling, Philando Castille, Tamir rice, Oscar Grant. These were horrible tragedies that we could all regret and mourn. However, they are NOT representative of even tjhe tiniest portion of police interactions.
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What do you mean by the total number being .0003?
 
Howler63 said:
?
Now the question becomes...why isn't this information being put out to counteract the BLM folks? And why would the President say that there is a systemic racism?
Click to expand...

The most egregious and obvious examples of police committing outright murder are just the tip of the iceberg, as it were.

Beneath that are the questionable killings, the beatings, the excessive violence, the racial profiling, the stop and frisk, the pet shootings, the warrantless raids - more often than is comfortable on the wrong home, the militarization of the police force.

And the fact that every cop in a department KNOWS exactly who the bad actors are but still cover for them because "the thin blue line".

And the union lawyers who hold more sway with the municipal government than the citizens do.

And the separate set of rules that apply to police officers, the "good ol' boy" networks of the investigators and prosecutors responsible for dispensing justice to cops being the same law enforcement officials that those same cops play golf with on the weekend and have over the house for holiday BBQs.

The problems run much, much, much, much deeper than a few offhand examples of protesters supporting obvious criminals (Martin, Garner, Brown) who were killed by citizens or police under legally justifiable circumstances.

The problem with police corruption, evidence tampering, collusion, excessive force, is endemic.

The fact that people respond to it, or lash out at it, stupidly doesn't change that.

This whole BLM Ferguson, Milwaukee, Dallas mess is objectionable and is to be condemned across the board.

Civil disobedience which turns destructive or violent is a crime and not to be supported.

But a stupid response to the problem doesn't negate the problem.

Someone needs to clean up this nation's law enforcement industry, because it's rotten to the core.

If you're a "good" cop, and you've never filed a report with your agency's CID to turn in the cops you KNOW are dirty, then you're not a "good" cop - you're just as dirty as the "bad" cops.

And that means most of you.
 
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Howler63 said:
?
Now the question becomes...why isn't this information being put out to counteract the BLM folks? And why would the President say that there is a systemic racism?
Click to expand...

Oh, surely you know the answer to that one.
 
Henrin said:
Would he have died if someone didn't have him in a choke hold?
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Would he have died if he had gone to the cop shop when asked to put his hands behind his back?
 
soot said:
The most egregious and obvious examples of police committing outright murder are just the tip of the iceberg, as it were.

Beneath that are the questionable killings, the beatings, the excessive violence, the racial profiling, the stop and frisk, the pet shootings, the warrantless raids - more often than is comfortable on the wrong home, the militarization of the police force.

And the fact that every cop in a department KNOWS exactly who the bad actors are but still cover for them because "the thin blue line".

And the union lawyers who hold more sway with the municipal government than the citizens do.

And the separate set of rules that apply to police officers, the "good ol' boy" networks of the investigators and prosecutors responsible for dispensing justice to cops being the same law enforcement officials that those same cops play golf with on the weekend and have over the house for holiday BBQs.

The problems run much, much, much, much deeper than a few offhand examples of protesters supporting obvious criminals (Martin, Garner, Brown) who were killed by citizens or police under legally justifiable circumstances.

The problem with police corruption, evidence tampering, collusion, excessive force, is endemic.

The fact that people respond to it, or lash out at it, stupidly doesn't change that.

This whole BLM Ferguson, Milwaukee, Dallas mess is objectionable and is to be condemned across the board.

Civil disobedience which turns destructive or violent is a crime and not to be supported.

But a stupid response to the problem doesn't negate the problem.

Someone needs to clean up this nation's law enforcement industry, because it's rotten to the core.

If you're a "good" cop, and you've never filed a report with your agency's CID to turn in the cops you KNOW are dirty, then you're not a "good" cop - you're just as dirty as the "bad" cops.

And that means most of you.
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That's quite a list of false negative stereotypes of cops you have there.

Given that the list of unarmed black men killed by cops over the last several years isn't even 100 people long you have a pretty tiny iceberg there. I'm pretty sure more black men are killed by lightening. And given how the issue is being ginned up you'd think the cops were stacking the bodies of unarmed black men up like cord wood, but it's not true.

Rhetoric like yours doesn't help. The truth is good enough to use in these conversations, and you should be using it, not lies.

The vast majority of cops want to do their job right and are concerned about how they are perceived by the public. Your ilk makes them think it's no use trying to do the right thing.
 
joG said:
What do you mean by the total number being .0003?
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That's the percentage of contacts with police that result in someone getting shot and killed by police -- 1200 incidents out of a total of 40 million contacts with police.

According to the Washington Post, a total of 990 people were shot dead by police in the US in 2015. Of those 93 were unarmed. Of those 38 were black.

Given that cops are mean, racist, killing machines bent on the murder of unarmed black men, the numbers seem damned low.

Moreover, the number doesn't tell the whole story. It doesn't tell you that one unarmed black man was killed when he lost in a struggle over the cop's pistol. Or that one man was shot beating a cop with his own equipment. Or that one man was shot charging the cop in an apparent attempt to overwhelm and kill him.

There is no support in the data for the idea that police killings of black men are driven by race or by any so called systemic racism.
 
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LowDown said:
That's the percentage of contacts with police that result in someone getting shot and killed by police -- 1200 incidents out of a total of 40 million contacts with police.

According to the Washington Post, a total of 990 people were killed by police in the US in 2015. Of those 93 were unarmed. Of those 38 were black.

Given that cops are mean, racist, killing machines bent on the murder of unarmed black men, the numbers seem damned low.
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Oh. Okay. Those are the numbers I had in my memory. It was just that the 1.200 had seemed to have been retracted. But I think that 1.200 deaths by police action a horrific number independent of how many times they are in contact with citizens. In Germany 7 persons died of police use of force in 2014.
 
joG said:
Oh. Okay. Those are the numbers I had in my memory. It was just that the 1.200 had seemed to have been retracted. But I think that 1.200 deaths by police action a horrific number independent of how many times they are in contact with citizens. In Germany 7 persons died of police use of force in 2014.
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Why do you think that is?
 
soot said:
The most egregious and obvious examples of police committing outright murder are just the tip of the iceberg, as it were.

Beneath that are the questionable killings, the beatings, the excessive violence, the racial profiling, the stop and frisk, the pet shootings, the warrantless raids - more often than is comfortable on the wrong home, the militarization of the police force.

And the fact that every cop in a department KNOWS exactly who the bad actors are but still cover for them because "the thin blue line".

And the union lawyers who hold more sway with the municipal government than the citizens do.

And the separate set of rules that apply to police officers, the "good ol' boy" networks of the investigators and prosecutors responsible for dispensing justice to cops being the same law enforcement officials that those same cops play golf with on the weekend and have over the house for holiday BBQs.

The problems run much, much, much, much deeper than a few offhand examples of protesters supporting obvious criminals (Martin, Garner, Brown) who were killed by citizens or police under legally justifiable circumstances.

The problem with police corruption, evidence tampering, collusion, excessive force, is endemic.

The fact that people respond to it, or lash out at it, stupidly doesn't change that.

This whole BLM Ferguson, Milwaukee, Dallas mess is objectionable and is to be condemned across the board.

Civil disobedience which turns destructive or violent is a crime and not to be supported.

But a stupid response to the problem doesn't negate the problem.

Someone needs to clean up this nation's law enforcement industry, because it's rotten to the core.

If you're a "good" cop, and you've never filed a report with your agency's CID to turn in the cops you KNOW are dirty, then you're not a "good" cop - you're just as dirty as the "bad" cops.

And that means most of you.
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soot....i do understand what you are saying

IF only it were that easy

i have a number of cop friends....i called two of them this morning just to see how they were doing

we have had many conversations regarding good cops/ bad cops over the years

the one thing you arent taking into consideration is that they HAVE to depend on each other....it is almost like the military where the only person you can and do count on is the other guy in your foxhole

and partners who turn in other partners soon get a bad name in the department....and find themselves left out in the cold

should it be that way? no....

but reality is reality....and when you are face to face with a perp with a gun, reliance on your partner is kinda important

i hear what you are saying....but just think on what you would do in a similar situation

most cops are good cops....small errors will be overlooked a lot by partners....egregious ones not so much
 
Howler63 said:
?
Now the question becomes...why isn't this information being put out to counteract the BLM folks? And why would the President say that there is a systemic racism?
Click to expand...

Because the stats you posted are old and incomplete....nor do they tell the whole story.
 
Howler63 said:
I posted earlier today that 1200 deaths last year from police shootings was horrendous and that is represents a bigger problem of police militarization. I was wrong. The numbers do NOT bear that out.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp08.pdf

According to the Justice department, there were abound 40 million interactions between police and citizens for the last year the data has been crunched. Which, by the way, is a decrease from the year before. based on that number, the total number of citizens killed by the police is .0003. What in normally called statistically insignificant. Now I'd love to see some new numbers, but I can't imagine that they'd be vastly different except for actually being lower.

For the most part, far and away, the police are professional, courteous and fair. There is no evidence to support the notion that they are systemically racist or violent toward any racial group.

Now, are there tragedies? Yes. Alton Sterling, Philando Castille, Tamir rice, Oscar Grant. These were horrible tragedies that we could all regret and mourn. However, they are NOT representative of even tjhe tiniest portion of police interactions.
Click to expand...

40 million interactions between police and civilians is rather misleading IMO. That counts all interactions I presume, not just arrests or traffic tickets.

If so, the .0003 number is also misleading.

Perhaps a more meaningful statistic would be the number of civilians actually shot by police, and the number of those who died from their wounds. Judging from these recent events, perhaps the number of rounds fired into the body of the average civilian would be relevant too.
 
Thoreau72 said:
40 million interactions between police and civilians is rather misleading IMO. That counts all interactions I presume, not just arrests or traffic tickets.

If so, the .0003 number is also misleading.

Perhaps a more meaningful statistic would be the number of civilians actually shot by police, and the number of those who died from their wounds. Judging from these recent events, perhaps the number of rounds fired into the body of the average civilian would be relevant too.
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No. I think the numbers speak for themselves. What they say is that most cops, and by most I mean a VAST majority, interact with the people of this nation in a professional manner. It also says that shootings and 'death by cop' are very, VERY rare in terms of how many times they could happen. They say that the meme created by BLM and the media is a lie.
 
Aunt Spiker said:
You know - some of these travesties have to do more with a failed judicial system.

Take Eric Garner (man strangled by police). The officer used unjustified and unapproved forced against a man, ignored his effort to communicate about being unable to breathe, the man was strangled to death on a sidewalk.

And yet no trial?

Why so? Just what more does an officer have to do, wrong, in order to be put on trial or found guilty? Soldiers have been found guilty for killing unjustly IN the THEATER of war. Is our judicial system SO broken? Apparently it is.

When people are killed during such incidences - it may ultimately be a statistical low. But when each individual is looked at separately and put to trial and, time and again, gets a walk... you really have to wonder what's really going on.

So to me - it's not a matter of statistical averages and spikes. It's a matter of individual cases and the end results: was justice truly dealt? Time and again the answer is no. That's a SERIOUS problem.
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It's a problem, but is it a serious one? I guess opinions differ.

IMO, the critically serious problem underscores the reason there is so much crime in Black neighborhoods in the first place. Rather than look seriously at that, with honest eyes, it seems easier to stir up the neighborhoods with platitudes from inept and pathologically crooked politicians and activists. Better to feed the economically hungry with BS to keep their eyes off the facts, than actually address the true causes, and approach real honest and respectful solutions.

Until that conversation happens, Black Communities will continue to be used as nothing but pawns in the quest for power by those who chose to continue to exploit them.
 
ocean515 said:
It's a problem, but is it a serious one? I guess opinions differ.

IMO, the critically serious problem underscores the reason there is so much crime in Black neighborhoods in the first place. Rather than look seriously at that, with honest eyes, it seems easier to stir up the neighborhoods with platitudes from inept and pathologically crooked politicians and activists. Better to feed the economically hungry with BS to keep their eyes off the facts, than actually address the true causes, and approach real honest and respectful solutions.

Until that conversation happens, Black Communities will continue to be used as nothing but pawns in the quest for power by those who chose to continue to exploit them.
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When potential at-fault homicides go unjudged via trial - yes, yes that IS a MAJOR problem.

If you caused someone's death due to your actions wouldn't you EXPECT a trial?
 
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