Mussolini and fascism are both left wing

Mussolini was the father of fascism. Lets look at some facts about Mussolini:

Mussolini was an Atheist:

He believed that science had proven there was no god, and that the historical Jesus was ignorant and mad. He considered religion a disease of the psyche, and accused Christianity of promoting resignation and cowardice.

Mussolini was a student of Marx:

Mussolini was so familiar with Marxist literature that in his own writings he would not only quote from well-known Marxist works but also from the relatively obscure works.[26] During this period Mussolini considered himself an "authoritarian communist"[27] and a Marxist and he described Karl Marx as "the greatest of all theorists of socialism."

He was a member of the Italian Socialist Party and the editor of its newspaper, Avanti! Mussolini was expelled from the party only because of him supporting military intervention into the war (the party wanted neutrality), not because he rejected socialism.


Let's now look at what he accomplished during his reign.

He imposed unionization:

Under this labour policy, Fascist Italy enacted laws to make union membership compulsory for all workers.

Massive amount of government spending on infrastructure, schools, etc.:

Mussolini’s spending on the public sector, schools and infrastructure was considered extravagant. Mussolini "instituted a programme of public works hitherto unrivaled in modern Europe. Bridges, canals and roads were built, hospitals and schools, railway stations and orphanages; swamps were drained and land reclaimed, forests were planted and universities were endowed". As for the scope and spending on social welfare programs, Italian fascism "compared favorably with the more advanced European nations and in some respect was more progressive".

Mussolini imposed a large and expansive welfare state:

By 1925, the Fascist government had "embarked upon an elaborate program" that included food supplementary assistance, infant care, maternity assistance, general healthcare, wage supplements, paid vacations, unemployment benefits, illness insurance, occupational disease insurance, general family assistance, public housing and old age and disability insurance.

He made a direct comparison between his government policies, and FDR's government policies:

When New York city politician Grover Aloysius Whalen asked Mussolini about the meaning behind Italian fascism in 1939, the reply was: "It is like your New Deal!".

Mussolini referred to himself as the "Lenin of Italy":

During the 1919 elections, the Fascists had attempted to court the socialist-left while publicly dubbing himself the “Lenin of Italy”,[13] attempting to “out-socialist the socialists”

He was a collectivist, and hated individualism:

Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity.

Last but not least, fascist Italy had a very high degree of public ownership of the means of production:

By 1939, Fascist Italy attained the highest rate of state ownership of any economy in the world other than the Soviet Union.

As anyone can see, Mussolini was clearly left wing. Socialism is a spectrum, with dozens of different variations. Lenin had his own version (Leninism), Stalin had his own version (Stalinism), Mao had his own version (Maoism) and Mussolini had his own version, which he named fascism.

 

[NatMorton]

Trumpolini.

My post was about small government and that either way the size of government is not a factor in identifying fascism.

That is ridiculous. Government authority is how fascist polices are imposed. How else do you think they impose their will, clever rhetoric?

To the contrary, your posts that would have the size of government as your central factor fails. Your posts misidentify fascism completely. My thrust is that both left and right live by big government. Which leaves the question for whom, of whom, by whom.

The whom — and their objectives — don’t matter. The question is one of methods, more specifically the centralization of political authority as the method of choice.

 

[Quag]

Only those on the far right who would have joined Mussolini back in the day ever try to pretend fascist is left wing

 

[Tangmo]

The ideology is inconsistent with small government individual Liberty right wing politics. No amount saying “it’s right wing” will ever change the fact that Top down central control is incompatible with Right wing anything. It’s the left wing that wants central authority, central banks, and a large enough government to enforce it.

Right and left live by Big Government. So and by this fact it's not a question of which one is fascist or tends toward fascism.

And as I've noted in scrolling, small government radicals conservatives in the US oppose Trumpolini and his 21st century uniquely American fascism that despises the Constitution with its three branches of government, separation of powers, checks and balances of coequal powers, a representative democracy, free and fair elections and the peaceful transfer of power. By this measure, ie, support of the Constitution and its protections against the state, "the left" in America are the conservatives while MAGAs are the wild radicals who would demolish the whole of The American Experiment in Democracy.

Indeed, nearly everyone agrees the most predictable route to fascism derives from the destruction of democracy. And it's MAGA that wants to destroy democracy, while "the left" struggles to retain democracy. Which if nothing else and singularly leaves MAGA as incipient fascists.

 

[Tangmo]

That is ridiculous. Government authority is how fascist polices are imposed. How else do you think they impose their will, clever rhetoric?

The whom — and their objectives — don’t matter. The question is one of methods, more specifically the centralization of political authority as the method of choice.

I posted that in the US -- and in Europe too -- both left and right live by Big Government. Which means the size of government is not a factor in identifying fascism.

What in the US identifies fascism and fascists is opposition to the Constitution, ie, its three branches of government, separation of powers, checks and balances of coequal powers, a representative democracy, free and fair elections and the peaceful transfer of power. By this measure, ie, support of the Constitution and its protections of the individual against the state, "the left" in America are the conservatives while MAGAs are the wild radicals who would demolish the whole of The American Experiment in Democracy.

Indeed, the surest path to fascism in the modern world is through the willful and malicious destruction of democracy. Indeed, anyone who says he wants to "terminate" the Constitution defines himself as an incipient fascist. Likewise for those who agree or acquiesce, eg, MAGAs.

 

[NatMorton]

I posted that in the US -- and in Europe too -- both left and right live by Big Government. Which means the size of government is not a factor in identifying fascism.

I agree, there are those on the right who love big government, but if you read what I wrote you’ll see I’m not talking about them.

What in the US identifies fascism and fascists is opposition to the Constitution, ie, its three branches of government, separation of powers, checks and balances of coequal powers, a representative democracy, free and fair elections and the peaceful transfer of power. By this measure, ie, support of the Constitution and its protections of the individual against the state, "the left" in America are the conservatives while MAGAs are the wild radicals who would demolish the whole of The American Experiment in Democracy.

IMO, the American right has far more respect for that system of checks and balances than does the American left; one only need look at their respective approaches to SCOTUS to see that.

Indeed, the surest path to fascism in the modern world is through the willful and malicious destruction of democracy. Indeed, anyone who says he wants to "terminate" the Constitution defines himself as an incipient fascist. Likewise for those who agree or acquiesce, eg, MAGAs.

See my previous point.

 

[Tangmo]

I agree, there are those on the right who love big government, but if you read what I wrote you’ll see I’m not talking about them.

I posted already that in the US the small government conservative Constitutionalists are prominent among the Never Trumpers and who reject MAGA. It is in fact Trump and MAGA who want to "terminate" the Constitution. Indeed, Trump has said already he will be a "dictator from day one."

Biden and the Democratic Party are the antithesis of this. Independent voters to include third party voters especially are unreliable at best.

And I've stated irrefutably that the clearest path to fascism throughout the 20th century is by the destruction of democracy. Your posts ignore this too so I will keep reiterating this fact.

 

[Tangmo]

IMO, the American right has far more respect for that system of checks and balances than does the American left; one only need look at their respective approaches to SCOTUS to see that.

See my previous point.

Alas I see you are posting from Earth 2 again.

Your posts have no point. Philosophically your posts are weak.

Speaking of which, at one point Trump wailed "why can't my generals be more like Hitler's generals" which anyway is not entirely the case for Hitler's generals and admirals. But we know Trump is brainless to begin with. Being envious of Hitler as Trump is. Using Hitler as a reference point as he does.

Which is why your effort to speak only in abstractions fails.

 

[NatMorton]

Alas I see you are posting from Earth 2 again.

Your posts have no point. Philosophically your posts are weak.

Speaking of which, at one point Trump wailed "why can't my generals be more like Hitler's generals" which anyway is not entirely the case for Hitler's generals and admirals. But we know Trump is brainless to begin with. Being envious of Hitler as Trump is. Using Hitler as a reference point as he does.

Which is why your effort to speak only in abstractions fails.

Sorry, a defense of checks and balances cannot be reconciled with this left’s near uniform support of judicial activism.

 

[Tangmo]

Sorry, a defense of checks and balances cannot be reconciled with this left’s near uniform support of judicial activism.

The court is judicially active for MAGA.

So the MAGA court is getting its arse burned in red state after blue state since it killed Roe. The MAGA court said to turn abortion over to the states. This has turned into a lot of butt hurt for the MAGA court and for MAGAs across the land. So suddenly now states rights aren't such a good thing any more. Now MAGAs want a federal absolute prohibition of abortion.

Your MAGA court that hates federal social programs suddenly loves the central government when it's abolishing individual rights such as abortion. To include voting access for Democrats. Lock up the MSM and throw away the key. The Insurrection Act for protesters and demonstrators. Camps for the politically unbrainwashed. And so on for central authority.

All MAGAs do with checks and balances is trip and fall over 'em, then turn around and slash 'em. Checks and balances only get in the way of the wannabe dictatorship of Trump and MAGA.

 

[CaughtInThe]

After this thread I'm not sure anybody should trust what the OP has to say again.

 

[Tangmo]

You gotta hand it to the right wing, they don’t give up on this lie no matter how many times they get discredited.

This thread and topic handed the MAGAs their arse if that's what you might mean.

It's the MAGA POSTING CODE: Say anything, deny everything and above all else never say die.

Since Trump it's been The Triumph of The Will 2.0

Never Say Die.

 

[Geoist]

Horseshoe theory is bullshit and you know it.

So you deny that some of your buddies on the far right flirt with fascism? We have posters with avatars of Pinochet and Franco and they bitch about communism/socialism more than anyone.

It is not dishonest. Fascism is clearly left-wing

And yet the further rightwing a person is in their politics the more likely they are to be a fascist.

Nobody says there isn't SOME overlap between fascism and authoritarian communism (hence HORSESHOE THEORY!) but there are obvious and clear difference between the two. Mussolini advocated for a corporatist state. Authoritarian communists want the entire economy run exclusively by the state.

No doubt you agree Ayn Rand was far-right, so what does she have in common with Mussolini? Nothing.

Ayn Rand was an objectivist/minarchist. This is a totally different branch of the right. I don't agree with people who say she was a fascist, though I am sympathetic to the argument that a lot of her positions could lead, if not a fascist state, at least a corporatist state.

I've seen far more conservatives/rightwingers on DP and other forums touting Franco and Pinochet than I do rightwingers touting Ayn Rand. Why is that?

 

[Geoist]

Would @aociswundumho call these clowns communists to their face? I doubt it

 

[Geoist]

@aociswundumho ,

why do the far right freak out over BLM and antifa, but seem to jump to the defense of neo-nazis (or at least stay silent)?

Ron DeSantis Silent After Nazis Proudly March The Streets Of Central Florida

A group of racist Nazis marched through the streets of Central Florida over the weekend, and Governor Ron DeSantis hasn’t said a word.

newsone.com

 

[aociswundumho]

@aociswundumho ,

why do the far right freak out over BLM and antifa, but seem to jump to the defense of neo-nazis (or at least stay silent)?

Ron DeSantis Silent After Nazis Proudly March The Streets Of Central Florida

A group of racist Nazis marched through the streets of Central Florida over the weekend, and Governor Ron DeSantis hasn’t said a word.

newsone.com

DeSantis is not "far right", he's a Republican. He supports an enormous amount of government intrusion into our lives and into the economy (which is the same thing).

 

[aociswundumho]

Would @aociswundumho call these clowns communists to their face? I doubt it

Who are they?

 

[Geoist]

DeSantis is not "far right", he's a Republican. He supports an enormous amount of government intrusion into our lives and into the economy (which is the same thing).

You mean like the pro-life crowd? You gonna claim now all those anti-abortion conservatives are commies for that position?

 

[aociswundumho]

And yet the further rightwing a person is in their politics the more likely they are to be a fascist.

Do you know who Richard Spencer is? He's a fairly well-known white supremacist.

Would you consider him to be right wing?

 

[Geoist]

Who are they?

neo-nazis.

 

[Geoist]

Do you know who Richard Spencer is? He's a fairly well-known white supremacist.

Would you consider him to be right wing?

Richard Spencer is rightwing. Supporting abortion of minority fetuses and public healthcare does not make someone a socialist by default. That's like saying being antiwar automatically makes you leftwing.

 

[aociswundumho]

Richard Spencer is rightwing.

I say he isn't, and I'm going to provide evidence why he isn't.

1. He's against immigration in general (with a few exceptions for white people). He's against the H1B visa program, because it allows immigrants to compete with Americans. Those of us on the right, especially the far right, hate the idea of people needing "papers" to cross political borders. This is what I believe, what the Libertarian party believes, what Milton Friedman believed etc. On the other hand, the strictest border controls in the world have been in far left countries. The Berlin Wall, for example, was built by East Germany, not West Germany. The USSR went even further and had an internal passport system. Bernie Sanders, like Richard Spencer, also believes immigrants make Americans worse off.

2. He doesn't believe in the existence of natural rights. Instead he believes any rights you have come from the state.

3. He supports socialism "when done right".

4. He supports a national healthcare system.

5. He's a racist, and like it or not, racism is a particularly vile form of collectivism. Individualism is on the right, collectivism is on the left.

All of the above claims supported here.

 

[Quag]

Would @aociswundumho call these clowns communists to their face? I doubt it

Sure there are always jibes at family picnics

 

[Slartibartfast]

This thread and topic handed the MAGAs their arse if that's what you might mean.

It's the MAGA POSTING CODE: Say anything, deny everything and above all else never say die.

Since Trump it's been The Triumph of The Will 2.0

Never Say Die.

And with this response, we are full circle back to post #2 on this thread.

My prediction is that the RWers who simply cannot emotionally cope with the fact that fascism is right wing will simply try yet again to reduce their sense of cognitive dissonance, everyone else will point out their bullshit yet again, and the cycle will continue. This is how it will always play out because factual history does not change.

Perhaps we can add this inevitability to the list that includes death and taxes.

 

[neo publius]

Right and left live by Big Government. So and by this fact it's not a question of which one is fascist or tends toward fascism.

And as I've noted in scrolling, small government radicals conservatives in the US oppose Trumpolini and his 21st century uniquely American fascism that despises the Constitution with its three branches of government, separation of powers, checks and balances of coequal powers, a representative democracy, free and fair elections and the peaceful transfer of power. By this measure, ie, support of the Constitution and its protections against the state, "the left" in America are the conservatives while MAGAs are the wild radicals who would demolish the whole of The American Experiment in Democracy.

Indeed, nearly everyone agrees the most predictable route to fascism derives from the destruction of democracy. And it's MAGA that wants to destroy democracy, while "the left" struggles to retain democracy. Which if nothing else and singularly leaves MAGA as incipient fascists.

When you muddy up the waters with your “interpretations” of propagandized events, it’s no wonder basic reason flies by the way side. Are there Republicans in name only? Yes that’s why call them Rinos and we identify the fact they are basically Democrats posing as Republicans. The small government platform staple of the so called “Right” hasn’t changed at all. Be it Libertarian or Republican. Small governments by nature would make poor Fascists - so much for the logic you are pretending to use. If challenging election results is a crime both sides have their fair share of criminals. BTW the USSC is reviewing the Jan 6 use of “obstruction of official business statute” used to charge 90% of the political prisoners currently held by the Fascist Biden regime.

 

[Quag]

When you muddy up the waters with your “interpretations” of propagandized events, it’s no wonder basic reason flies by the way side. Are there Republicans in name only? Yes that’s why call them Rinos and we identify the fact they are basically Democrats posing as Republicans. The small government platform staple of the so called “Right” hasn’t changed at all. Be it Libertarian or Republican. Small governments by nature would make poor Fascists - so much for the logic you are pretending to use. If challenging election results is a crime both sides have their fair share of criminals. BTW the USSC is reviewing the Jan 6 use of “obstruction of official business statute” used to charge 90% of the political prisoners currently held by the Fascist Biden regime.

The only ones trying to muddy anything here is the far right wingers trying to pretend that fascism isn't a far right wing ideology