Mussolini and fascism are both left wing

Mussolini was the father of fascism. Lets look at some facts about Mussolini:

Mussolini was an Atheist:

He believed that science had proven there was no god, and that the historical Jesus was ignorant and mad. He considered religion a disease of the psyche, and accused Christianity of promoting resignation and cowardice.

Mussolini was a student of Marx:

Mussolini was so familiar with Marxist literature that in his own writings he would not only quote from well-known Marxist works but also from the relatively obscure works.[26] During this period Mussolini considered himself an "authoritarian communist"[27] and a Marxist and he described Karl Marx as "the greatest of all theorists of socialism."

He was a member of the Italian Socialist Party and the editor of its newspaper, Avanti! Mussolini was expelled from the party only because of him supporting military intervention into the war (the party wanted neutrality), not because he rejected socialism.


Let's now look at what he accomplished during his reign.

He imposed unionization:

Under this labour policy, Fascist Italy enacted laws to make union membership compulsory for all workers.

Massive amount of government spending on infrastructure, schools, etc.:

Mussolini’s spending on the public sector, schools and infrastructure was considered extravagant. Mussolini "instituted a programme of public works hitherto unrivaled in modern Europe. Bridges, canals and roads were built, hospitals and schools, railway stations and orphanages; swamps were drained and land reclaimed, forests were planted and universities were endowed". As for the scope and spending on social welfare programs, Italian fascism "compared favorably with the more advanced European nations and in some respect was more progressive".

Mussolini imposed a large and expansive welfare state:

By 1925, the Fascist government had "embarked upon an elaborate program" that included food supplementary assistance, infant care, maternity assistance, general healthcare, wage supplements, paid vacations, unemployment benefits, illness insurance, occupational disease insurance, general family assistance, public housing and old age and disability insurance.

He made a direct comparison between his government policies, and FDR's government policies:

When New York city politician Grover Aloysius Whalen asked Mussolini about the meaning behind Italian fascism in 1939, the reply was: "It is like your New Deal!".

Mussolini referred to himself as the "Lenin of Italy":

During the 1919 elections, the Fascists had attempted to court the socialist-left while publicly dubbing himself the “Lenin of Italy”,[13] attempting to “out-socialist the socialists”

He was a collectivist, and hated individualism:

Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity.

Last but not least, fascist Italy had a very high degree of public ownership of the means of production:

By 1939, Fascist Italy attained the highest rate of state ownership of any economy in the world other than the Soviet Union.

As anyone can see, Mussolini was clearly left wing. Socialism is a spectrum, with dozens of different variations. Lenin had his own version (Leninism), Stalin had his own version (Stalinism), Mao had his own version (Maoism) and Mussolini had his own version, which he named fascism.

 

[neo publius]

The only ones trying to muddy anything here is the far right wingers trying to pretend that fascism isn't a far right wing ideology

Once again. All you do is state that it is far right wing, despite the fact that the two are incompatible . You can not be far right wing and fascist . You can not be a dictator without a strong enforcement apparatus. Small government doesn’t impose rule to justify their existence. Big government does, fascism requires big government.

 

[Quag]

Once again. All you do is state that it is far right wing, despite the fact that the two are incompatible . You can not be far right wing and fascist . You can not be a dictator without a strong enforcement apparatus. Small government doesn’t impose rule to justify their existence. Big government does, fascism requires big government.

Once again you show you have no clue of when the terms right and left mean

 

[Tangmo]

When you muddy up the waters with your “interpretations” of propagandized events, it’s no wonder basic reason flies by the way side. Are there Republicans in name only? Yes that’s why call them Rinos and we identify the fact they are basically Democrats posing as Republicans. The small government platform staple of the so called “Right” hasn’t changed at all. Be it Libertarian or Republican. Small governments by nature would make poor Fascists - so much for the logic you are pretending to use. If challenging election results is a crime both sides have their fair share of criminals. BTW the USSC is reviewing the Jan 6 use of “obstruction of official business statute” used to charge 90% of the political prisoners currently held by the Fascist Biden regime.

I have made the point several times that both Right and Left practice Big Government. Yet only the right cuts taxes for the corporations. Big Government means the Right is not exempt from transitioning into fascism. It's what MAGA has been doing since 2015 at the least.

Indeed, the surest path to fascism in the modern world is through the willful and malicious destruction of democracy. Specifically, anyone who says he wants to "terminate" the Constitution defines himself as an incipient fascist. Only one side has moreover begun talking about "vermin" -- and that is the Right who are against the Constitutional separation of powers, the balance of powers, checks and balances and the peaceful transition of power. Likewise for those who agree or acquiesce to same, eg, MAGAs.

Which leaves your post as an eccentric muddle focused on so called RINOs. This is arcane and the intra Republican party gripe of the most extreme rightists against certain Republicans who are neither ideological nor rigid nor pure, and Republicans who have no axe to grind against anyone.

Indeed, nearly everyone agrees the most predictable route to fascism derives from the destruction of democracy. And it's MAGA that wants to destroy democracy while "the left" struggles to retain democracy. Which if nothing else and singularly leaves MAGA as actively incipient fascists.

 

[Tangmo]

Once again. All you do is state that it is far right wing, despite the fact that the two are incompatible . You can not be far right wing and fascist . You can not be a dictator without a strong enforcement apparatus. Small government doesn’t impose rule to justify their existence. Big government does, fascism requires big government.

Hungary is a small country with a small government and a small economy and it's gone full on fascist.

MAGAs flock to Hungary to bow at the feet of Orban. MAGAs hosted Orban right here in Texas at their CPAC conference who spoke of the glories of his fascism in Hungary. Indeed, MAGAs are using Hungary as their model for the USA.

Poland just threw out their fascists in government who were also imposing a strong and powerful central government that is only slightly larger than Hungary's but still small.

Government revenues in Poland in 2020 were $236,464 bn. In Hungary government revenues for 2020 were $65,689 bn. US government revenues for 2020 were $5.9 Trillion. Nobody in the USA can make the US government small again. Not without a magic wand anyway. Or magic posts.

 

[neo publius]

I have made the point several times that both Right and Left practice Big Government. Yet only the right cuts taxes for the corporations. Big Government means the Right is not exempt from transitioning into fascism. It's what MAGA has been doing since 2015 at the least.

Indeed, the surest path to fascism in the modern world is through the willful and malicious destruction of democracy. Specifically, anyone who says he wants to "terminate" the Constitution defines himself as an incipient fascist. Only one side has moreover begun talking about "vermin" -- and that is the Right who are against the Constitutional separation of powers, the balance of powers, checks and balances and the peaceful transition of power. Likewise for those who agree or acquiesce to same, eg, MAGAs.

Which leaves your post as an eccentric muddle focused on so called RINOs. This is arcane and the intra Republican party gripe of the most extreme rightists against certain Republicans who are neither ideological nor rigid nor pure, and Republicans who have no axe to grind against anyone.

Indeed, nearly everyone agrees the most predictable route to fascism derives from the destruction of democracy. And it's MAGA that wants to destroy democracy while "the left" struggles to retain democracy. Which if nothing else and singularly leaves MAGA as actively incipient fascists.

Very articulate but so far from reality. Cutting taxes for corporations is a concept you seem to think favors the rich and yet if I ask you which corporations and we looked at the shareholders, government pensions , the teachers unions and individual 401ks make up the majority of those. That’s who you wrongly label the “Uber wealthy” meanwhile Democrats take Billions to place incompetent sheep into local attorney general office etc. and completely ignore the constitution you claim Republicans are destroying. lol wow you lay it on thick. I’ll bet if we go somewhere else you want to force compliance with your other ideals such as electric vehicles or population reduction policies or disinformation about science aka biology and carbon and your hate for all things religion spews out? Am I right? Cause I know you’ll admit it with your own spin but here’s the thing saving democracy in a republic means you need to respect the minority opinion. Which you don’t, that’s mob rules not democracy. At least not Constitutional Republic Democracy. So rethink your post. Because like I said it’s so far from reality that I have to wonder are you lying on purpose or driving while blind?

 

[neo publius]

Hungary is a small country with a small government and a small economy and it's gone full on fascist.

MAGAs flock to Hungary to bow at the feet of Orban. MAGAs hosted Orban right here in Texas at their CPAC conference who spoke of the glories of his fascism in Hungary. Indeed, MAGAs are using Hungary as their model for the USA.

Poland just threw out their fascists in government who were also imposing a strong and powerful central government that is only slightly larger than Hungary's but still small.

Government revenues in Poland in 2020 were $236,464 bn. In Hungary government revenues for 2020 were $65,689 bn. US government revenues for 2020 were $5.9 Trillion. Nobody in the USA can make the US government small again. Not without a magic wand anyway. Or magic posts.

You Misunderstand the meaning of small government. It’s not small in relative sense compared to larger nations it’s small in the sense of the amount of taxes it takes to run it per capita. Per individual. It’s small in the amount of control it exerts over the constituency .

 

[Tangmo]

You Misunderstand the meaning of small government. It’s not small in relative sense compared to larger nations it’s small in the sense of the amount of taxes it takes to run it per capita. Per individual. It’s small in the amount of control it exerts over the constituency .

I posted about government revenue.

That's taxes if you don't know. Your posts seem not to connect the two.

Hungary has small government and it is fascist. Poland has small government and it just dumped its fascist regime of 8 years already. There are others.

I reiterate because it doesn't register with the hard core MAGAs, the Right and the Left live by Big Government. Trump the fascist is Mr. Deficit & Debt.

So when you say "small government" you mean expenditures and in the USA its entitlement programs MAGAs want to blow up.

US Government revenue for 2020 was $5.9 Trillion. This is Big Government no matter who is in office. You would need to state what your government revenue would be after you're finished blowing up expenditures for entitlement programs. Done by the Fascist Trump & MAGAs. Indeed, that's fascist rule whether it's big or small.

 

[Tangmo]

Very articulate but so far from reality. Cutting taxes for corporations is a concept you seem to think favors the rich and yet if I ask you which corporations and we looked at the shareholders, government pensions , the teachers unions and individual 401ks make up the majority of those. That’s who you wrongly label the “Uber wealthy” meanwhile Democrats take Billions to place incompetent sheep into local attorney general office etc. and completely ignore the constitution you claim Republicans are destroying. lol wow you lay it on thick. I’ll bet if we go somewhere else you want to force compliance with your other ideals such as electric vehicles or population reduction policies or disinformation about science aka biology and carbon and your hate for all things religion spews out? Am I right? Cause I know you’ll admit it with your own spin but here’s the thing saving democracy in a republic means you need to respect the minority opinion. Which you don’t, that’s mob rules not democracy. At least not Constitutional Republic Democracy. So rethink your post. Because like I said it’s so far from reality that I have to wonder are you lying on purpose or driving while blind?

Trump is talking about his "vermin" and wants to "root out" his vermin from the society.

So no matter how you slice it your post is still baloney.

That is, it's MAGA boilerplate. In this instance it's the core MAGA MO, ie, exploit democracy to destroy democracy. Fake electors and so on.

 

[Geoist]

I say he isn't, and I'm going to provide evidence why he isn't.

1. He's against immigration in general (with a few exceptions for white people). He's against the H1B visa program, because it allows immigrants to compete with Americans. Those of us on the right, especially the far right, hate the idea of people needing "papers" to cross political borders. This is what I believe, what the Libertarian party believes, what Milton Friedman believed etc. On the other hand, the strictest border controls in the world have been in far left countries. The Berlin Wall, for example, was built by East Germany, not West Germany. The USSR went even further and had an internal passport system. Bernie Sanders, like Richard Spencer, also believes immigrants make Americans worse off.

2. He doesn't believe in the existence of natural rights. Instead he believes any rights you have come from the state.

3. He supports socialism "when done right".

4. He supports a national healthcare system.

5. He's a racist, and like it or not, racism is a particularly vile form of collectivism. Individualism is on the right, collectivism is on the left.

All of the above claims supported here.

The fact you would associate anti-immigration policies with leftism shows how completely disassociated you are from basic ideological understandings. Considering how you refuse to acknowledge the reality that Lysander Spooner was a socialist who hated Capitalism, this isn't surprising.

Someone like Spencer may hold some political beliefs in line with leftists, but his overall view is rightwing. There are conservatives on this board who are pro-choice. This is nothing new.

 

[aociswundumho]

The fact you would associate anti-immigration policies with leftism shows how completely disassociated you are from basic ideological understandings. Considering how you refuse to acknowledge the reality that Lysander Spooner was a socialist who hated Capitalism, this isn't surprising.

Spooner was a capitalist:

Being an advocate of self-employment and opponent of government regulation of business, in 1844 Spooner started the American Letter Mail Company, which competed with the United States Post Office, whose rates were very high.[25] It had offices in various cities, including Baltimore, Philadelphia and New York City.[26]

Someone like Spencer may hold some political beliefs in line with leftists, but his overall view is rightwing.

Based on what? He's a collectivist, just like you are. He supports socialism and statism, just like you do.

 

[Geoist]

Spooner was a capitalist:

Spooner opposed wage labor and promoted co-ops. That is anti-capitalism.

Based on what? He's a collectivist, just like you are. He supports socialism and statism, just like you do.

Define collectivism, statism, and socialism.

 

[Geoist]

@aociswundumho
"All the great establishments, of every kind, now in the hands of a few proprietors, but employing a great number of wage labourers, would be broken up; for few or no persons, who could hire capital and do business for themselves would consent to labour for wages for another." [quoted by Eunice Minette Schuster, Native American Anarchism, p. 148]

https://www.activism.net/government/AnarchistFAQ/secG7.html

[/URL]

 

[aociswundumho]

@aociswundumho
"All the great establishments, of every kind, now in the hands of a few proprietors, but employing a great number of wage labourers, would be broken up; for few or no persons, who could hire capital and do business for themselves would consent to labour for wages for another." [quoted by Eunice Minette Schuster, Native American Anarchism, p. 148]

https://www.activism.net/government/AnarchistFAQ/secG7.html

[/URL]

Wth is that suppose to mean?

And provide the actual source, not what somebody else claims he said.

 

[Geoist]

Wth is that suppose to mean?

It means the capitalists exploited the workers forcing them to work under the wage system. Spooner believed in breaking up that system and promoted worker-owned businesses.

And provide the actual source, not what somebody else claims he said.

It is from Spooner's Letter to President Cleveland, as the source i provided notes

A Letter to Grover Cleveland (1886) | Online Library of Liberty

Spooner criticises Cleveland’s government, and by implication all U.S. governments as well, for violating the citizen’s natural rights and Spooner’s consent theory of government legitimacy.

oll.libertyfund.org

 

[aociswundumho]

It means the capitalists exploited the workers forcing them to work under the wage system. Spooner believed in breaking up that system and promoted worker-owned businesses.

Wrong. Spooner wrote a lot about banking and currency. If he was against wage labor he wouldn't have hired workers for his own company.

 

[BirdinHand]

Mussolini was anti-socialist, anti-union, and reactionary. He was a brutal response to growing anarchism and then socialism in Italy. That's WHERE his fascism came from - as a reaction to growing anarchism and socialism in Italy.

Mussolini HATED Carlo Tresca - a socialist, anarchist and labor agitator. He hated EVERYTHING about the growing anarchist and socialist movement inside Italy. A man, raised by socialists was KICKED OUT of the socialists. And created fascism.

Nothing about Mussolini is "left". He was a reactionary authoritarian - with hate in his heart for socialists and anarchists. (Although he preferred the anarchists to the socialists and saw them as "morally superior" - and admired Sacco...he wanted both movements squashed politically)

When you create an authoritarian government and political belief system - as a reaction to left-wing political ideologies - you are NOT left-wing. To assert Mussolini was "left" is absurd and shows a complete lack of understanding of who Mussolini was, what was going on at the time of his rise to power in Italy, and who he turned on and against.

 

[Geoist]

Wrong. Spooner wrote a lot about banking and currency. If he was against wage labor he wouldn't have hired workers for his own company.

Spooner vigorously opposed wage labor on the basis of the labor theory of value (LTV), according to which the value of a good is determined by the amount of labor poured into it.

Lysander Spooner: The Libertarian Anarchist - Austrian Economics Center

Despite its strong association with Spanish anarchism during the 1930s, collectivism was not a hallmark of anarchism everywhere. In the US, for example,

austriancenter.com

You were saying...?

 

[BirdinHand]

He was a member of the Italian Socialist Party

He was thrown OUT of the Italian Socialist Party. Convenient how you omit that from your recounting of history and narration on how Mussolini and fascism is "left"

 

[Geoist]

He was thrown OUT of the Italian Socialist Party. Convenient how you omit that from your recounting of history and narration on how Mussolini and fascism is "left"

Yup. He also later abandoned Marxism and egalitarianism. A point @aociswundumho would rather us not know.

 

[aociswundumho]

Spooner vigorously opposed wage labor on the basis of the labor theory of value (LTV), according to which the value of a good is determined by the amount of labor poured into it.

Lysander Spooner: The Libertarian Anarchist - Austrian Economics Center

Despite its strong association with Spanish anarchism during the 1930s, collectivism was not a hallmark of anarchism everywhere. In the US, for example,

austriancenter.com

You were saying...?

What are you talking about?

Spooner never wanted the state to prevent people from working for each other (like you and other socialist do) and he himself hired people.

 

[BirdinHand]

Yup. He also later abandoned Marxism and egalitarianism. A point @aociswundumho would rather us not know.

You know and jailed/executed/hunted down labor advocates and labor union members that were fighting not only in Italy, but here in the US on the side of workers.

If it wasn’t for Coolidge (I believe) he would have had Carlo Tresca extradited to Italy to be killed. (And perhaps fascists did eventually assassinate him)

Another convenient fact of history omitted

 

[LouC]

Well, I read the OP's OP and compared notes.

While there were some near hits between a couple items on the list and my own philosophical bents I can honestly say that, YES, I am still a LEFTIST but, NO, I am not Mussolini.

 

[aociswundumho]

He was thrown OUT of the Italian Socialist Party. Convenient how you omit that from your recounting of history and narration on how Mussolini and fascism is "left"

I addressed it in the very next sentence:

Mussolini was expelled from the party only because of him supporting military intervention into the war (the party wanted neutrality), not because he rejected socialism.

 

[BirdinHand]

I addressed it in the OP:

Considering your entirety of knowledge on Mussolini seems to come from wiki…I’m not surprised that is the position you present.

You realize Wiki isn’t an actual credible source, right? But more of a reference to other sources that you need to verify?

 

[aociswundumho]

You realize Wiki isn’t an actual credible source, right?

Which claims did I make about Mussolini do you believe are incorrect?