• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Mussolini and fascism are both left wing

Mussolini was the father of fascism. Lets look at some facts about Mussolini:

Mussolini was an Atheist:
He believed that science had proven there was no god, and that the historical Jesus was ignorant and mad. He considered religion a disease of the psyche, and accused Christianity of promoting resignation and cowardice.


Mussolini was a student of Marx:
Mussolini was so familiar with Marxist literature that in his own writings he would not only quote from well-known Marxist works but also from the relatively obscure works.[26] During this period Mussolini considered himself an "authoritarian communist"[27] and a Marxist and he described Karl Marx as "the greatest of all theorists of socialism."

He was a member of the Italian Socialist Party and the editor of its newspaper, Avanti! Mussolini was expelled from the party only because of him supporting military intervention into the war (the party wanted neutrality), not because he rejected socialism.


Let's now look at what he accomplished during his reign.

He imposed unionization:

Under this labour policy, Fascist Italy enacted laws to make union membership compulsory for all workers.


Massive amount of government spending on infrastructure, schools, etc.:

Mussolini’s spending on the public sector, schools and infrastructure was considered extravagant. Mussolini "instituted a programme of public works hitherto unrivaled in modern Europe. Bridges, canals and roads were built, hospitals and schools, railway stations and orphanages; swamps were drained and land reclaimed, forests were planted and universities were endowed". As for the scope and spending on social welfare programs, Italian fascism "compared favorably with the more advanced European nations and in some respect was more progressive".


Mussolini imposed a large and expansive welfare state:

By 1925, the Fascist government had "embarked upon an elaborate program" that included food supplementary assistance, infant care, maternity assistance, general healthcare, wage supplements, paid vacations, unemployment benefits, illness insurance, occupational disease insurance, general family assistance, public housing and old age and disability insurance.


He made a direct comparison between his government policies, and FDR's government policies:

When New York city politician Grover Aloysius Whalen asked Mussolini about the meaning behind Italian fascism in 1939, the reply was: "It is like your New Deal!".


Mussolini referred to himself as the "Lenin of Italy":

During the 1919 elections, the Fascists had attempted to court the socialist-left while publicly dubbing himself the “Lenin of Italy”,[13] attempting to “out-socialist the socialists”


He was a collectivist, and hated individualism:

Anti-individualistic, the Fascist conception of life stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with those of the State, which stands for the conscience and the universal, will of man as a historic entity.


Last but not least, fascist Italy had a very high degree of public ownership of the means of production:

By 1939, Fascist Italy attained the highest rate of state ownership of any economy in the world other than the Soviet Union.

As anyone can see, Mussolini was clearly left wing. Socialism is a spectrum, with dozens of different variations. Lenin had his own version (Leninism), Stalin had his own version (Stalinism), Mao had his own version (Maoism) and Mussolini had his own version, which he named fascism.
 
What are you talking about?

Spooner never wanted the state to prevent people from working for each other (like you and other socialist do) and he himself hired people.

You just don't know when to cut your losses. Fine then, I'll keep going:

Spooner was opposed to wage labour, wanting that social relationship destroyed by turning capital over to those who work in it, as associated producers and not as wage slaves. Hence Spooner was anti-capitalist, prefering to see a society of self-employed farmers, artisans and cooperating workers, not a society of wage slaves and capitalists.
 
Which claims did I make about Mussolini do you believe are incorrect?
The fundamental claim that Mussolini and fascism is “left”

Fascism is not “left”. Not even remotely. Fascism is a reactionary response TO leftist ideologies.

And Mussolini’s development of fascism was a reactionary response to his socialist upbringing and socialist/anarchist/labor movements that were growing in Italy at the time.

Mussolini was a violent, authoritarian, ego driven man who created his own “brand” and politics because he couldn’t abide by and wouldn’t play within the frameworks of socialism and craved power, adoration and acknowledgement - even from an early age.

There’s nothing “left” about him or fascism.
 
The fundamental claim that Mussolini and fascism is “left”

Fascism is not “left”. Not even remotely. Fascism is a reactionary response TO leftist ideologies.

And Mussolini’s development of fascism was a reactionary response to his socialist upbringing and socialist/anarchist/labor movements that were growing in Italy at the time.

Mussolini was a violent, authoritarian, ego driven man who created his own “brand” and politics because he couldn’t abide by and wouldn’t play within the frameworks of socialism and craved power, adoration and acknowledgement - even from an early age.

There’s nothing “left” about him or fascism.

I've never seen a right-libertarian argue in favor of the left-right political paradigm (at least his own bizarre version of it where the far right are the anarcho-capitalists and conservatives, progressives, fascists, and communists are all on the left). Most of them argue against it as it's overly-simplistic and confusing (I happen to agree).

Most of them prefer the political compass. Don't know why @aociswundumho won't just reject the left-right paradigm altogether and advocate for the political compass.
 
I've never seen a right-libertarian argue in favor of the left-right political paradigm (at least his own bizarre version of it where the far right are the anarcho-capitalists and conservatives, progressives, fascists, and communists are all on the left). Most of them argue against it as it's pretty simplistic and confusing (I happen to agree).

Most of them prefer the political compass. Don't know why @aociswundumho won't just reject the left-right paradigm altogether and just advocate for the political compass.
I agree. His interpretations of where political ideologies fall on a left-right axis are, indeed, bizarre. As is his desire to cling to the left-right single-axis paradigm vs. shifting to a compass POV. I've struggled to understand that aspect of his postings myself.

But, here in the real world where people discussing the concept of political ideologies are conversing, fascism goes on the RIGHT of the axis, not the left. There's no logical way to put it on the left as it is a reaction TO the left. To say it belongs there is bizarre when it grew as an antithesis to those ideologies.
 
The fundamental claim that Mussolini and fascism is “left”

That claim is well supported by all of the other claims.

Mussolini was a violent, authoritarian, ego driven man who created his own “brand”

Yes, just like Stalin who created his own brand (Stalinism) and Lenin who created his own brand (Leninism)
 
Because the political compass is incoherent.

It makes far more sense than some single line to measure every political ideology. You're literally the only right-libertarian I know who embraces the left-right paradigm.
 
That claim is well supported by all of the other claims.



Yes, just like Stalin who created his own brand (Stalinism) and Lenin who created his own brand (Leninism)
Now you're going into communism - which isn't fascism.

If you're going to try to discuss which political ideologies fall where on a spectrum and why...you should at least try to stick with one ideology at a time. Fascism =/= communism =/= stalinism =/= leninism.
 
It makes far more sense than some single line to measure every political ideology. You're literally the only right-libertarian I know who embraces the left-right paradigm.
Most people that stick to a simple left-right axis don't tend to have a very in depth understanding or appreciation for the nuances of various political ideologies. At least that's my experience.
 
It makes far more sense than some single line to measure every political ideology. You're literally the only right-libertarian I know who embraces the left-right paradigm.
If you were to put his ideology on a number line, 10 would be right wing and < 10 is far left.

It’s the ultimate in irrational gate keeping where his stance is an infinitely small point and everything else is just awful.

If you keep that in mind, squint a bit, macro dose, and taken some acetaminophen to keep the headache at bay, then his posts begin to make sense.
 
It makes far more sense than some single line to measure every political ideology. You're literally the only right-libertarian I know who embraces the left-right paradigm.


compass.webp

As you can see, those two corners are incoherent.
 
But your depth of understanding goes no further than that.

If the claims in the OP are true, then fascism is a form of socialism.

We are on page 11, with 266 comments, and so far no one has contested any of those claims yet.
 
If the claims in the OP are true, then fascism is a form of socialism.

We are on page 11, with 266 comments, and so far no one has contested any of those claims yet.
Your entire OP is nonsense copied and pasted from Wiki and demonstrating no greater depth of knowledge.

Fascism is not a form of socialism. It isn't even in the same REALM as socialism.
 
1702512747833.png

This one might be easier on the eyes.

As you can see...fascism is "right".
Socialism - all forms - are "left"

Fascism is also ALWAYS authoritarian. Socialism is NOT always authoritarian.

There are reasons why individuals that understand the nuances of different political ideologies don't like a simple left-right axis and prefer this compass instead.

But either way you'd prefer to discuss the topic, fascism is ALWAYS on the right. Socialism is always on the left.

You are not somehow more clever or intelligent than every scholar who has studied political ideologies and the two graphs I've posted are generally agreed-upon axes where political ideologies sit on the spectrum.
 
Last edited:
View attachment 67482588

As you can see, those two corners are incoherent.

It's incoherent because whoever created that text doesn't know what they're talking about. A libertarian-socialist society would provide tremendous economic freedom as it redistributes and decentralizes the power to the workers. Capitalism centralizes power to the executives/CEO. The corporate hierarchical structure is akin to a monarchy.
 
View attachment 67482595

This one might be easier on the eyes.

As you can see...fascism is "right".
Socialism - all forms - are "left"

Fascism is also ALWAYS authoritarian. Socialism is NOT always authoritarian.

There are reasons why individuals that understand the nuances of different political ideologies don't like a simple left-right axis and prefer this compass instead.

But either way you'd prefer to discuss the topic, fascism is ALWAYS on the right. Socialism is always on the left.

You are not somehow more clever or intelligent than every scholar who has studied political ideologies and the two graphs I've posted are generally agreed-upon axes where political ideologies sit on the spectrum.
I quibble with where progressivism as it occupies the neoconservative space but I think this chart is using European terminology.
 
A libertarian-socialist society would provide tremendous economic freedom as it redistributes and decentralizes the power to the workers.

But the compass puts you on the left side of the economic freedom axis, which means little to no economic freedom.
 
But the compass puts you on the left side of the economic freedom axis, which means little to no economic freedom.

the bottom left is described as 'voluntary regional collectivism', not 'zero economic freedom.'

bothaxes.gif
 
Back
Top Bottom