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Minneapolis Changes "Columbus Day" To "Indigenous People's Day"

I have a friend who is native and lives in Minneapolis. She is happy about this. I can't say that I am.

Dude had some big ass flaws, no doubt about it. But, I think a holiday to honor European discovery of America is important to our national heritage. We wouldn't be here if not for that.
 
Cryptic said:
In 1505, the African slave trade between African kingdoms and Arabs / Berbers was already in existance. The Europeans introduced a new expansion (supply of slaves to the Americas). The Europeans, however, did not start the African slave trade as African kingdoms were already very willing to export slaves to a variety of markets.
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Never said he started it all around. Stating that he started it in the new world.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Just keep narrowing your meaning. I suppose anyone's family can be traced back to slave owners you want jailed.
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I want him jailed? He's not alive bud. He started the slave trade in the new world and committed genocide. What a great man. Glad you look up to a slave owning man who partook in genocide.
 
CRUE CAB said:
Only telling the truth about how it started. Hate white people all you want.
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:lamo This is what you got out of this. That this is like a racist thing? :lamo Are you this stupid?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
I want him jailed? He's not alive bud. He started the slave trade in the new world and committed genocide. What a great man. Glad you look up to a slave owning man who partook in genocide.
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When was the last time you sailed the oceans? Made discoveries, risked your life? What he "partook in" was legal at the time.
 
CRUE CAB said:
When was the last time you sailed the oceans? Made discoveries, risked your life? What he "partook in" was legal at the time.
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:lamo What a great guy. Sailed the ocean trying to find China but ended up finding another continent then decided to kill a bunch of people. What a great guy.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
:lamo Nothing like ignoring genocide.
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Yeah sure. Ok. You keep telling yourself that.

There is no genocide of the native american people through disease. You know why? because until we developed microbiology, nobody really knew what diseases were. I mean people knew what diseases were as in, "hey, he's sick of this sickness" but we didn't really know what they were until we put them under a microscope and in a test tube. And now, there are vaccines made to cure most diseases. hell, even malaria is treatable thanks to western medicine and people are working on eradicating it.

You know who else suffered what you call "genocide" through disease? Europeans. Twice just in the early middle ages. 2 black plagues thanks to the mongol invaders who brought that disease with them. You know why these diseases happen? Because people in dfiferent places have different carriers. That's why you get vaccines if you go someplace else that is pretty different than where you live. I had to get vaccines when I went to Turkey just in case. You don't hear European accusing the mongols of double genocide now do you. You know why we don't do that? Because it wouldn't make sense. They didn't know they were carriers of diseases anymore than anyone knows if you don't get tested.

Europeans who went to the new world got diseases too you know. But because there were fewer Europeans going it was contained. In some cases, it was dreadful, like when the Scots went to Panama trying to build the Panama cannal. They all died from tropical diseases. Some of the spaniards who went to south america also died from tropical diseases... but those who lived, developed immunity. That's kinda what you do if you want to live. You either beat the disease or die trying. The native americans don't get to cry foul play because the raindance didn't save them. The incas and aztecs don't get to cry foul play because sacrificing thousands of virgin women to some stupid god didn't save their asses. Maybe if they had put a bit more work into pilling up the corpses and burning them instead of murdering their own people they might have pulled through. Stone age mentality isn't to be appreciated. And this is a hard truth to swallow. And a complicated one at that. That's why so many idiots on the internet like the ones you posted in the articles choose to easy version "white man bad". Again, you don't hear the bad white man cry about how half the people in Europe were twice exterminated by the 2 black plagues brought by the mongol hordes.
 
Rainman05 said:
Yeah sure. Ok. You keep telling yourself that.

There is no genocide of the native american people through disease. You know why? because until we developed microbiology, nobody really knew what diseases were. I mean people knew what diseases were as in, "hey, he's sick of this sickness" but we didn't really know what they were until we put them under a microscope and in a test tube. And now, there are vaccines made to cure most diseases. hell, even malaria is treatable thanks to western medicine and people are working on eradicating it.

You know who else suffered what you call "genocide" through disease? Europeans. Twice just in the early middle ages. 2 black plagues thanks to the mongol invaders who brought that disease with them. You know why these diseases happen? Because people in dfiferent places have different carriers. That's why you get vaccines if you go someplace else that is pretty different than where you live. I had to get vaccines when I went to Turkey just in case. You don't hear European accusing the mongols of double genocide now do you. You know why we don't do that? Because it wouldn't make sense. They didn't know they were carriers of diseases anymore than anyone knows if you don't get tested.

Europeans who went to the new world got diseases too you know. But because there were fewer Europeans going it was contained. In some cases, it was dreadful, like when the Scots went to Panama trying to build the Panama cannal. They all died from tropical diseases. Some of the spaniards who went to south america also died from tropical diseases... but those who lived, developed immunity. That's kinda what you do if you want to live. You either beat the disease or die trying. The native americans don't get to cry foul play because the raindance didn't save them. The incas and aztecs don't get to cry foul play because sacrificing thousands of virgin women to some stupid god didn't save their asses. Maybe if they had put a bit more work into pilling up the corpses and burning them instead of murdering their own people they might have pulled through. Stone age mentality isn't to be appreciated. And this is a hard truth to swallow. And a complicated one at that. That's why so many idiots on the internet like the ones you posted in the articles choose to easy version "white man bad". Again, you don't hear the bad white man cry about how half the people in Europe were twice exterminated by the 2 black plagues brought by the mongol hordes.
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Much much more than disease.. "Another very important detail left out of textbooks is anything about Bartholomew De Las Casas. Las Casas transcribed Columbus’s journal and wrote his own History of the Indies (Zinn 5). In this multi-volume work, Las Casas describes the indigenous people with high admiration (Sanderlin 35). Las Casas also tells a first hand account of the treatment of the Indians by Columbus and the Spaniards:

Endless Testimonies… prove the mild and pacific temperament of the natives… But our work was so exasperate, ravage, kill, mangle and destroy; small wonder, then, if they tried to kill one of us now and then… The admiral, it is true was blind as those who came after him, and he was so anxious to please the King that he committed irreparable crimes against the Indians… (qtd. in Zinn 6)." Columbus’s Genocide
 
TheDemSocialist said:
CRUE CAB said:
Someone had to capture and sell the slaves from Africa. Oh, yea. Africans.
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Yea. So what? Is this supposed to excuse anything at all?
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Since Africa is being addressed ...
Nothing is or should be excused as there should be no need for excuses for engaging in the norm of the time.
That was the way it was at the time.
It was the norm, and no one should be blamed for taking part in what was the norm.
But if one wants to point a finger there is enough blame to go around.
For instance, this is what one African King had to say.

King Gezo said in the 1840's he would do anything the British wanted him to do apart from giving up slave trade:
"The slave trade is the ruling principle of my people. It is the source and the glory of their wealth…the mother lulls the child to sleep with notes of triumph over an enemy reduced to slavery…"​
The Story of Africa| BBC World Service​

If there is any blaming to go around then you have to blame the African's also as they had slavery long before this country was a thought.


Or in the stead, no one should be made more culpable than another for doing what was the norm.
We as the human species can move away from blaming and move forward, as we moved forward when the majority of humanity put slavery behind us.
 
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TheDemSocialist said:
Much much more than disease.. "Another very important detail left out of textbooks is anything about Bartholomew De Las Casas. Las Casas transcribed Columbus’s journal and wrote his own History of the Indies (Zinn 5). In this multi-volume work, Las Casas describes the indigenous people with high admiration (Sanderlin 35). Las Casas also tells a first hand account of the treatment of the Indians by Columbus and the Spaniards:

Endless Testimonies… prove the mild and pacific temperament of the natives… But our work was so exasperate, ravage, kill, mangle and destroy; small wonder, then, if they tried to kill one of us now and then… The admiral, it is true was blind as those who came after him, and he was so anxious to please the King that he committed irreparable crimes against the Indians… (qtd. in Zinn 6)." Columbus’s Genocide
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So... what's your point? I don't understand where you're getting at.

That people come in all shape and sizes and sometimes they like one another and other times they treat each other like ****? Big freaking deal. It's no different than how any other individuals in any other society all over the god damn planet since the dawn of time did to one another. It doesn't warrant special attention. It's the same thing that happened all over the course of history between different people and between the same people.

You wanna know something that Columbus did besides being a dick to some of the natives? He build a trading post. Expanded the map of the world and the knowledge. Enabled the trading of goods and resources. Potatoes and tomatoes came to Europe and from there, the other continents. Wheat and horses were taken to the americas because they didn't have any there. Later on, others would bring Coffee from Africa to plant in latin america, something they still make money off today and it's a big ass industry. So you don't honor the man for being a dick. That's just being human. You find people who are dicks everywhere and have always been. People with some power, unscrupulous ambition and a disregard for others to use to protect what he has on the line. But how many of those people accomplished things like this? Exchange of goods never seen before. Promoting wealth all. Increasing knowledge. That's why he is great and that's why he should be honored. It's not about "the feels". That some people "feel" like it was bad. It's about things that are greater than petty squabbles and greater than oneself.

And that's why is to be honored. but some people man... they're pathetic. They can't recognize greatness and because they themselves are so low in life, the only way to bring others down is to dig up the pettyness and say " HEY LOOK, THIS MAN WASN'T THE ICON OF PERFECTION". Ofc not, he's human and as humans, when one achieves things that are greater than oneself... well, that deserves to be honored.
 
Rainman05 said:
So... what's your point? I don't understand where you're getting at.
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He committed massive genocide! Massive genocide. Killing innocent people. I dont care if he built a trading post, founded the new world, whatever. He still massacred innocent indgenious peoples for no good reason, and because of that I still dont think we should have a holiday after him, I mean afterall its in celebration of "him discovering the new world", even tho he didnt really discover it because people were already here!
 
TheDemSocialist said:
He committed massive genocide! Massive genocide. Killing innocent people. I dont care if he built a trading post, founded the new world, whatever. He still massacred innocent indgenious peoples for no good reason, and because of that I still dont think we should have a holiday after him, I mean afterall its in celebration of "him discovering the new world", even tho he didnt really discover it because people were already here!
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He killed within his authority to kill. It was for reason and it was the norm.
 
Excon said:
He killed within his authority to kill. It was for reason and it was the norm.
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And so did just about every brutal dictator. Hey maybe we should look up to all of them too! :roll:
 
TheDemSocialist said:
He committed massive genocide! Massive genocide. Killing innocent people. I dont care if he built a trading post, founded the new world, whatever. He still massacred innocent indgenious peoples for no good reason, and because of that I still dont think we should have a holiday after him, I mean afterall its in celebration of "him discovering the new world", even tho he didnt really discover it because people were already here!
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Again with the "feels".

He didn't do any massive genocide. He did "forced labor" because slavery was frowned upon by Queen Isbella and killed the rebellious ones who tried to fight and did a few more abuses of power. That's not genocide by any stretch of the imagination.

He did discover it. You know why? Because he stuff down. He wrote it " I discovered a new world"... well, he wrote something like "I discovered a route to India!".. .but he wrote it down. You know who couldn't write stuff down even if they wanted? The natives. You know why? Coz they were in the stone age and stone age people don't have a written language. You know what else they don't have? Seafaring ships to spread the news. You know what else? Good maps. Well, good for a pre-GPS civilization. If the Europeans hadn't validated the existence of the natives, nobody would know about them. They exist because Europeans like Columbus and people with him acknowledged their existence in a way they could have never done it. It sounds harsh but that's the truth. tell me, who were the leaders from the past 500 years before columbus got to their shores of the people on the islands. Who were the most important people in Cuba and what came to be known as Hispanola in 820? I can tell you who ruled what in Iberia at that time.

You know why we know about some of the different ethnicities who lived in the latin american islands and of some we don't know ****? Because some of them were being either systematically killed by one or enslaved. Like how the Taino people were like the big dogs in those islands. We know more about them than all other ethnicities because they, the Taino, knew how to build boats good enough to bunny hop from island to island so they conquered all their neighbors, killed them or enslaved them and then, when a bigger dog came to the islands, did the same to them. So it wasn't like those islands were paradise, no conflicts, no problemos... one ethnic group, the Taino if I remember right, were the biggest and the other ethnic groups were trampled by them. Now this is something I read 3 years ago so it might be the Tainos who were being trampled by another ethnic group but same idea. Don't pretend like everything was fine before "whitey" came. It wasn't. It was ****. Difference is, all the murders and the subjugation that they did to one another between themselves, they did **** all in the greater schemes of things. Columbus opened up a new trade route and exchanged a few very important things. Horses and wheat to the americas. Potatoes and tomatoes to Europe. And what I said after, later on, sugar, coffee also moved around. Big deal.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
And so did just about every brutal dictator. Hey maybe we should look up to all of them too! :roll:
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False comparison.

The point of history is to learn from it. Not to point fingers and lay blame or vilify for that which was the norm.
 
Excon said:
False comparison.

The point of history is to learn from it. Not to point fingers and lay blame or vilify for that which was the norm.
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False comparison? How so? In most cases it was "legal"for brutal dictator to commit genocide. Maybe we should have all those holidays for some brutal dictators that did some good things and ignore the rest but hey we can learn from that history!
 
Rainman05 said:
Again with the "feels".
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Journals of people on the voyage admit they did! They were free to kill!
Remember this: " But our work was so exasperate, ravage, kill, mangle and destroy; small wonder, then, if they tried to kill one of us now and then… The admiral, it is true was blind as those who came after him, and he was so anxious to please the King that he committed irreparable crimes against the Indians… (qtd. in Zinn 6)."

Sure they used forced labor. Can using forced labor at massive amounts that lead to the deaths not account for genocide? The nazis used forced labor and people died while being used as forced labor for the war effort. Do those acts not account for genocide?

"When he arrived on Hispaniola in 1508, Las Casas says, "there were 60,000 people living on this island, including the Indians; so that from 1494 to 1508, over three million people had perished from war, slavery, and the mines. Who in future generations will believe this? I myself writing it as a knowledgeable eyewitness can hardly believe it...." Columbus, The Indians, and Human Progress

He did discover it.
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How does one discover something when humanity was already there?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
False comparison? How so? In most cases it was "legal"for brutal dictator to commit genocide. Maybe we should have all those holidays for some brutal dictators that did some good things and ignore the rest but hey we can learn from that history!
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Really?
You do not understand the difference between a dictator doing whatever he desires and a governor working withing the rules of law?

Well then learn the difference.


And your further argument is dishonest.
He is recognized for the benefits and good his discovery has brought.
 
Excon said:
Really?
You do not understand the difference between a dictator doing whatever he desires and a governor working withing the rules of law?
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Hmmm saying that dictators usually "make their own laws" so therefore they can operate in their rule of law....


Well then learn the difference.
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Still nothing like trying to justify genocide is there?

And your further argument is dishonest.
He is recognized for the benefits and good his discovery has brought.
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But not his brutal genocide and slavery aint he? We like to forget those bad parts because then it really doesnt paint him as such a great guy.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
This man committed GENOCIDE.
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According to left wing sources.

Christopher Columbus: Hero for the Ages or Genocidal Maniac? | THE NEW MODERATE
He didnt have more than one **** buddy, or took a cookie from the cookie jar, he committed full blown genocide! There is nothing who have to be reasonable about it.
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No one celebrates Columbus day for the alleged bad **** he did.No one celebrates MLK jr day for the alleged bad **** he did.No one puts George Washington or any of our other founders on our currency because they had and or raped slaves or helped contribute to the decline of the American Indians and the taking away of their land.It is ****ing idiotic to change a name of something because your ***** got hurt over something bad they did or allegedly did.
 
jamesrage said:
According to left wing sources.

Christopher Columbus: Hero for the Ages or Genocidal Maniac? | THE NEW MODERATE
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According to more than just "left wing sources".. But hey, I know what you are going to do, if any source that documents the genocide comes to source you'll just play it as a "left wing source".
And you "New Moderate source" just repeated what people already stated. Oh he wasnt that bad, i mean the natives werent nice either.. Give me a break.

No one celebrates Columbus day for the alleged bad **** he did.
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Exactly! He did bad ****! How can you have a holiday for a man that committed genocide, and just ignore that part? Is that not hypocritical?

No one celebrates MLK jr day for the alleged bad **** he did.
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What he do? Sleep around? How "terrible"

No one puts George Washington or any of our other founders on our currency because they had and or raped slaves or helped contribute to the decline of the American Indians and the taking away of their land.It is ****ing idiotic to change a name of something because your ***** got hurt over something bad they did or allegedly did.
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Jack Hays said:
Breathtaking silliness. Warts and all, CC was a visionary who changed the world.:peace
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Yea. He stumbled upon a continent where people were already living while partaking in genocide against them.
 
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