Militarizing the Border

[Rogue]

Jorge put 6,000 unarmed NG boots on desks on the border. He was afraid to arm the NG because a, thought to be illegal, hispanic sheep herder had gotten shot by a NG and later turned out to be legal. This of course angered a bunch of hispanics. In a pandering for hispanic votes move, so as to not anger any hispanics, jorge wouldn't arm the BP. Jorge said that he couldn't arm the NG because of the Posse Comitus law. Since jorge was actually hispandering for hispanic votes whether or not Posse Comitus allows military on the border stopping illegal hordes from breaking in or not is not real clear. The radical marxist amnesty maobama regime of course is hispandering for latino votes and will use the Posse Comitus law to keep from having to put armed military on the border in enough quantities to actually stop the unwanted uninvited illegal future democratic voter border jumpers from breaking in. After Nov maybe a decidedly more conservative Congress will have the balls to clarify the limits of Posse Comitus.

 

[mac]

This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?

Posse Commitatus doesn't keep our troops from defending our borders. And, most illegal immigrants snuck in.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?

Using the military to defend against invasion isn't a police action, it's a military action. Only if the invaders are arrested and turned over to the civil courts could it become a legal matter.

The Constitution grants the federal government the express responsibility for national defense. That means if the nation is invaded, the ARMY has the authority to act to repel the invaders.

The nation is being invaded from the south.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

I did look it up. It was enacted in this country after the civil war,specifically right after reconstruction. So it was created to appease whiny crybaby southerners who lost the civil war.

The concept of Posse Comitatus is a little more complex than that. Federalist 29 says:

"But though the scheme of disciplining the whole nation must be abandoned as mischievous or impracticable; yet it is a matter of the utmost importance that a well-digested plan should, as soon as possible, be adopted for the proper establishment of the militia. The attention of the government ought particularly to be directed to the formation of a select corps of moderate extent, upon such principles as will really fit them for service in case of need. By thus circumscribing the plan, it will be possible to have an excellent body of well-trained militia, ready to take the field whenever the defense of the State shall require it. This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist."

Equally important, Article XVI of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo gives the government of the United States the power to fortify it's side of the border as it deems necessary.

Each of the contracting parties reserves to itself the entire right to fortify whatever point within its territory it may judge proper so to fortify for its security.

Under Article VI of the Constitution of the United States:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Which means the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo granting the government the authority to use the Army to patrol the nation's border is not nullified by subsequent laws.

The assumption that the United States is forbidden by law from deploying the Army to defend the United States inside it's own borders is flat out weird. Was the US Army violating the Constitution by figting the British on US soil in the War of 1812? Hmmm? Well?

If Mexico sent tanks into Arizona the only recourse the US would have would be to send Sheriff Arpaio out to feed them jail food?

Where was the Left when Janet Gas'em and Burn'em Reno used Army tanks to murder 83 people at Waco Texas?

 

[American]

This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?

How many threads are you going to post this argument in? The governor of a state may call the National Guard forth to operate under his authority.

 

[Hoplite]

How many threads are you going to post this argument in? The governor of a state may call the National Guard forth to operate under his authority.

During a state of emergency, yes.

 

[Rogue]

During a state of emergency, yes.

Does the sovereign governor of any state have the authority to determine when and if an emergency exists in that State? Of course the govenor does. Oh wait. Under the new rules does the governor of any State now have to run everything past the current marxist socialist obama regime to make sure that it doesn't interfers with the marxist socialist agenda of the obama administration?

 

[LizardofOz]

I feel that militarizing it would be a big waste of taxpayers money and of our military. What would make more sense is instead to use CYPHER drones and other types of drones along with local law enforcement and the help of the National Guard in each border state that it is needed. Concentrate on where drug runners and people smugglers are going through, and alternate as to catch them changing routes.

 

[jamesrage]

I feel that militarizing it would be a big waste of taxpayers money and of our military..

Defending our borders is a military job so it would not be a waste of our military, nor would it be a waste of money.

What would make more sense is instead to use CYPHER drones and other types of drones along with local law enforcement and the help of the National Guard in each border state that it is needed.

Will these cypher drones be armed and the person controlling them have orders to shoot? If not then they would be a waste. Border guards do not need more spotters then need more boots on the ground,

 

[AmericanSon316]

I agree with Jameserage, give them order to shoot. Its obvious that the only thing that will get those illegals to stop flooding my country will be a few bullets to the head. If they shoot a few to show that they arent welcome than I think I would be willing to move closer to mexico. Have you been to the home depot lately? Lazy drug addicts taking our jobs right in front of the store. I want to go put a few under citizens arrest and have them deported. STOP TAKING OUR JOBS! It's bad enough president osama is throwing all our jobs away to other countrys now we have these criminal illegals taking what's left of them from us? Give the border patrol few more guns and maybe well see our economy go back up.

 

[BmanMcfly]

This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.

Posse comitatus has been whittled down to being virtually non-existant... but that aside, border control is one of the few issues that would actually be a legitimate use under the specific circumstances... among the border hoppers, there are those who are hoping for a better life and are not any real 'threat'... they still act as a way to lower the standard of living for americans,

The ones that require a millitarized border are those associated with the cartels, these people for all intents and purposes are an INVASION FORCE. They are organized, they are armed, they are willing to kill, many of them view their actions as part of the 'reconquista' because the southwestern states were STOLEN from Mexico... which is true in the sense that Mexico has lost wars and so lost their claim over the territory... So, a militarized presence would be justified in that there's a para-military force that is gradually invading the US.

Also, since the entire intent of the military is to PROTECT the nation and what it stands for, under the circumstances, this would not violate posse comatatis, since they would not be engaged in police work, but in securing the border... which IS a military task.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

I'm not sure of the actual numbers, but this, if memory serves is close enough. The difference between those that overstay the welcome is that the government is supposed to be keeping tabs on those immigrants and if they overstayed the welcome, once caught would be summarily deported. These workers are looking for a better life, and I don't have many qualms about having them come to work... Though, under our economic situation, I feel that work visas should be shut off completely until we can give these jobs to americans (as in no new ones, not cutting off those that already have the visa).

But this does detract from the point, it's not so much those that 'overstay' the welcome that are the REAL concern, it's the legitimate threat that view the southwest states as Mexico and are trying to reclaim that territory.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?

Honestly, look at Mexico... Look at the US... do you HONESTLY want the US to become MORE like Mexico??

Do you really want to have to start worrying about cops shaking you down for your money, kidnappings, murders running rampant (Mexican drug war is costing more lives then were lost during vietnam yearly)?? I mean, there are those that seem to like that idea, but I would tend to disagree with allowing mexicans to convert american to the mexican system. So, I would support militarizing the border.

 

[Hoplite]

Posse comitatus has been whittled down to being virtually non-existant... but that aside, border control is one of the few issues that would actually be a legitimate use under the specific circumstances... among the border hoppers, there are those who are hoping for a better life and are not any real 'threat'... they still act as a way to lower the standard of living for americans,

The ones that require a millitarized border are those associated with the cartels, these people for all intents and purposes are an INVASION FORCE. They are organized, they are armed, they are willing to kill, many of them view their actions as part of the 'reconquista' because the southwestern states were STOLEN from Mexico... which is true in the sense that Mexico has lost wars and so lost their claim over the territory... So, a militarized presence would be justified in that there's a para-military force that is gradually invading the US.

Also, since the entire intent of the military is to PROTECT the nation and what it stands for, under the circumstances, this would not violate posse comatatis, since they would not be engaged in police work, but in securing the border... which IS a military task.



I'm not sure of the actual numbers, but this, if memory serves is close enough. The difference between those that overstay the welcome is that the government is supposed to be keeping tabs on those immigrants and if they overstayed the welcome, once caught would be summarily deported. These workers are looking for a better life, and I don't have many qualms about having them come to work... Though, under our economic situation, I feel that work visas should be shut off completely until we can give these jobs to americans (as in no new ones, not cutting off those that already have the visa).

But this does detract from the point, it's not so much those that 'overstay' the welcome that are the REAL concern, it's the legitimate threat that view the southwest states as Mexico and are trying to reclaim that territory.



Honestly, look at Mexico... Look at the US... do you HONESTLY want the US to become MORE like Mexico??

Do you really want to have to start worrying about cops shaking you down for your money, kidnappings, murders running rampant (Mexican drug war is costing more lives then were lost during vietnam yearly)?? I mean, there are those that seem to like that idea, but I would tend to disagree with allowing mexicans to convert american to the mexican system. So, I would support militarizing the border.

Im sorry, but are you claiming that Mexico is eyeing the southern US states to take them over...using undocumented immigration?

As a side note, why does undocumented immigration ALWAYS focus almost exclusively on the Southern US border? There are undocumented immigrants that sneak into the US aboard cargo ships from Asia, Eastern Europeans who come in via marriage for green-card schemes, etc etc.

I just have a hard time taking all the anti-immigration noise seriously as NO ONE seems to care about any other avenue OTHER than the Southern border. Then it comes off as "I only care about the Mexicans being here!"

 

[BmanMcfly]

Im sorry, but are you claiming that Mexico is eyeing the southern US states to take them over...using undocumented immigration?

No, what Mexico, as a nation wants is to join a union between the US and Canada... however, there's a number... I won't venture a guess of the numbers, but yes... they DO BELIEVE that the southwest states are actually mexico...

but it's multi-faceted, the ones that are here for a better life are expected to vote... and well, let's say they will likely vote as a block, just to illustrate another facet, and the more we do to actually seal that border, the more you're going to see that it really is an invasion, because it will be closing off drug routes into the US... and if that money stops then mexico's got a problem.

As a side note, why does undocumented immigration ALWAYS focus almost exclusively on the Southern US border?

No, call them CRIMINAL immigrants at least... 'undocumented' is so PC... it focuses on the southern border because someone that went through the process of getting a visa, for some time in the US, they are at least 'documented'... though they have become criminal immigrants...

anyway, it focuses on the southern border because like it or not, 80+ of the immigrants into this country are from the southern border.

There are undocumented immigrants that sneak into the US aboard cargo ships from Asia, Eastern Europeans who come in via marriage for green-card schemes, etc etc.

And they should be deported post haste as well... look, I'm all for immigration from everywhere so long as it's done in a controlled fashion...

I just have a hard time taking all the anti-immigration noise seriously as NO ONE seems to care about any other avenue OTHER than the Southern border. Then it comes off as "I only care about the Mexicans being here!"

Let's make a distinction, a person comes in with a work visa and continues working after the expiration, this person's identity and status is documented and so, it could be as simple as a phone call to get some sort of action on the case, someone that hops over the border and sneaks their way into the country (though there's very few canadians crossing south illegally for the change of residence).

Ultimately, this is an issue of national sovereignty, with side issues including the drug war, the murders, the kidnappings, etc...that are a direct result of the most virulant elements of the immigration problem... ultimately, america is being killing by a thousand cuts at the moment, and this one is a pretty big one overall. If you really want something WE SHOULD be talking about instead is the banking issue and the 27+ Trillion dollars they made off with in bailouts... mostly to foreign corporations, it's been several months since I've heard updated figures, but for a while it was increasing a trillion dollars every week or two.... and NOBODY has thought to just throw them in jail.... all of them.

 

[Rogue]

Let's face it, the political will to secure the southern border will only happen if in Nov the Republican party regains control of Congress WITHOUT depending on the votes of the hispanics. With NO hispanic azzes to kiss for votes, like the marxist amnesty democratic party, the real hard common sense decisions for the good of the country can then be made by a CONSERVATIVE Republican party. POS Republicans like RINO McShame will be purged eventually too.

 

[BmanMcfly]

Im sorry, but are you claiming that Mexico is eyeing the southern US states to take them over...using undocumented immigration?

As a side note, why does undocumented immigration ALWAYS focus almost exclusively on the Southern US border? There are undocumented immigrants that sneak into the US aboard cargo ships from Asia, Eastern Europeans who come in via marriage for green-card schemes, etc etc.

I just have a hard time taking all the anti-immigration noise seriously as NO ONE seems to care about any other avenue OTHER than the Southern border. Then it comes off as "I only care about the Mexicans being here!"

Let's face it, the political will to secure the southern border will only happen if in Nov the Republican party regains control of Congress WITHOUT depending on the votes of the hispanics. With NO hispanic azzes to kiss for votes, like the marxist amnesty democratic party, the real hard common sense decisions for the good of the country can then be made by a CONSERVATIVE Republican party. POS Republicans like RINO McShame will be purged eventually too.

You know, I WOULD agree with you, except for the part that Bush was a republican and he signed on to the SPP, Clinton a democrat signed GATT, so I don't think it really matters who of the official parties would actually refuse to push for amnesty.

BTW - Are you aware that in the last census ALL mexicans were counted equally, and nobody was ever asked if they are a citizen?? Consider the implications of that statement.

 

[Rogue]

You know, I WOULD agree with you, except for the part that Bush was a republican and he signed on to the SPP, Clinton a democrat signed GATT, so I don't think it really matters who of the official parties would actually refuse to push for amnesty.

BTW - Are you aware that in the last census ALL mexicans were counted equally, and nobody was ever asked if they are a citizen?? Consider the implications of that statement.

Jorge is gone now and a bunch of RINO Republicans have been eliminated in the Tea Party primaries by real conservative Republicans. However, if a RINO like McShame outspends his opponent by a 20 to 1 margin there's nothing you can do. I was not aware that all mexicans were counted as the same. That's a total outrage. That sounds a lot like the NAU at work there. Of course, the census was run by the marxist/socialist maobama amnesty regime, so anything can happen now. The Nov elections may be among the most important in the history of this nation.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

During a state of emergency, yes.

And if an armed invasion by a foreign nation doesn't constitute a state of emergency, just what does? Only the weather?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?

Locking down the border with the military is not "in order to stop illegal immigration" - it would be to "stop the violence that accompanies border-areas"

Which is just one of many areas in which to focus efforts to keep Americans - *and* others (visitors, illegals) safe.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

I feel that militarizing it would be a big waste of taxpayers money and of our military. What would make more sense is instead to use CYPHER drones and other types of drones along with local law enforcement and the help of the National Guard in each border state that it is needed. Concentrate on where drug runners and people smugglers are going through, and alternate as to catch them changing routes.

So....you're saying using the military to defend the nation is a big waste of taxpayer's money.

I guess we really shouldn't have a military at all, huh?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I feel that militarizing it would be a big waste of taxpayers money and of our military. What would make more sense is instead to use CYPHER drones and other types of drones along with local law enforcement and the help of the National Guard in each border state that it is needed. Concentrate on where drug runners and people smugglers are going through, and alternate as to catch them changing routes.

Drones don't *replace* people except for when people aren't physically needed.

People *are* physically needed to respond to the violence that's growing.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Im sorry, but are you claiming that Mexico is eyeing the southern US states to take them over...using undocumented immigration?

The answer you don't want to hear is "yes".

The other answer is that Mexico has been exporting it's poor and benefitting from the tens of billions of dollars drained out of the US economy and wired to Mexico every year.

As a side note, why does undocumented immigration ALWAYS focus almost exclusively on the Southern US border? There are undocumented immigrants that sneak into the US aboard cargo ships from Asia, Eastern Europeans who come in via marriage for green-card schemes, etc etc.

Because we're not stupid and we want to fix the problem where the bulk of the problem is.

If a man has cancer of the left elbow, there's no reason to be freaking out about the blister on the right big toe.

I just have a hard time taking all the anti-immigration noise seriously as NO ONE seems to care about any other avenue OTHER than the Southern border. Then it comes off as "I only care about the Mexicans being here!"

No, you just have a problem with Americans wanting to defend their country.

The big problem is Mexico. All proper solutions that focus on Mexico will simultaneously address the invaders from other nations.

Arizona's AB 107 law does not target invaders from Mexico, it's applicable to all Invaders.

Any law that arrests and fines the employers of Invaders will be equally applicable to employers of Mexican Invaders as to those who employ Polish Invaders. That Mexican invaders outnumber Polish invaders by a hundred to one isn't relevant, nor is it indicative of any hidden bigotry the Left is always pretending to find.

 

[Hoplite]

No, what Mexico, as a nation wants is to join a union between the US and Canada... however, there's a number... I won't venture a guess of the numbers, but yes... they DO BELIEVE that the southwest states are actually mexico...

That's nice, I'm not interested in the lunatic fringe and unless you can give me proof that Mexico is picking out the furniture for their new townhall in Flagstaff, I'm going to have to dismiss this patently ridiculous idea.

No, call them CRIMINAL immigrants at least... 'undocumented' is so PC...

I can call them "eggplant" if I want.

it focuses on the southern border because someone that went through the process of getting a visa, for some time in the US, they are at least 'documented'... though they have become criminal immigrants...

They have still dropped off the radar and are difficult or impossible to find.

anyway, it focuses on the southern border because like it or not, 80+ of the immigrants into this country are from the southern border.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ILL_PE_2005.pdf

Wrong.

Just over half of undocumented immigration into the US is from Mexico.

And they should be deported post haste as well... look, I'm all for immigration from everywhere so long as it's done in a controlled fashion...

Ok, are you going to pay for the cost of hunting down and processing ALL visa overstays in the US? Considering about half of all undocumented immigrants are visa overstays and there are roughly 11.5 million in the US currently, that should be just under six million people.

Good luck

Let's make a distinction, a person comes in with a work visa and continues working after the expiration, this person's identity and status is documented and so, it could be as simple as a phone call to get some sort of action on the case, someone that hops over the border and sneaks their way into the country

Visa overstays go off the radar so they DONT get picked up and sent back, they're just as much in the wind as someone who crossed the border.

(though there's very few canadians crossing south illegally for the change of residence).

Actually there are about 70,000 Canadians here who are undocumented

Ultimately, this is an issue of national sovereignty

Bull****. People doing what America is allegedly here to do is no threat to you.

The answer you don't want to hear is "yes".

I've hit my daily quota for lunacy

The other answer is that Mexico has been exporting it's poor and benefitting from the tens of billions of dollars drained out of the US economy and wired to Mexico every year.

They get an economic boost from capital, we get it from cheap labor.

Because we're not stupid and we want to fix the problem where the bulk of the problem is.

And I have yet to see ANY feasible plans to do that aside from a system of controlled and regulated amnesty.

No, you just have a problem with Americans wanting to defend their country.

Dont give me the patriotic crap, it makes me choke when people start wheeling that out as a reason we should break our own laws to do something we dont actually NEED to do.

The big problem is Mexico. All proper solutions that focus on Mexico will simultaneously address the invaders from other nations.

Why should Mexico give a crap about OUR immigration problem? They've got WAY bigger problems. Expecting them to heave to when you snap your fingers is pretty arrogant.

Arizona's AB 107 law does not target invaders from Mexico, it's applicable to all Invaders.

And you're telling me you honestly believe that's the way it'll play out in enforcement?

Any law that arrests and fines the employers of Invaders will be equally applicable to employers of Mexican Invaders as to those who employ Polish Invaders. That Mexican invaders outnumber Polish invaders by a hundred to one isn't relevant, nor is it indicative of any hidden bigotry the Left is always pretending to find.

I dislike Arizona's law because I feel that as a citizen I should be able to walk down the street and NOT be challenged at the street corner to prove I'm legally there or worry about leaving my house without my papers.

What would you say to a law that allowed police to search your home whenever they wanted to look for narcotics? That is how I feel about the Arizona law.

 

[BmanMcfly]

That's nice, I'm not interested in the lunatic fringe and unless you can give me proof that Mexico is picking out the furniture for their new townhall in Flagstaff, I'm going to have to dismiss this patently ridiculous idea.

Don't be delusional. Seriously.

First off, read the publicly available SPP documents... www.judicialwatch.com sued for these documents. Border crisis was named as one of the means of promoting 'integration'... If these documents are not a treaty, then they represent the plan of creating a treaty.

But, aside from the fact that what you're calling 'lunatic fringe' is quite well documented, here's some of what you're clearly missing :

There are many intricacies to the symbolism of flags waving... example, an upside-down flag IS NOT a disrespect, it's a distress call.



Listen to this mans words. If you're going to tell me this guy does not mean what he says, I don't know what to tell you. Notice his mention of La raza. La raza's slogan translates to 'for those in the race everything, outside the race nothing."

Handbook of Texas Online - PLAN OF SAN DIEGO

This one is important, because Mexico's lawlessness is crossing the border :



YouTube - Students Sent Home Over American Flag On Cinco de Mayo
Students getting sent home for wearing the american flag shirts IN AMERICA.

YouTube - Mexicans Attack Fellow Students For Waving American Flag-Shocking Footage
Another example... these people are calling themselves MEXICAN americans, "this(america) is OUR country"

How much more do I have to show to make my point?

I can call them "eggplant" if I want.

The difference is that one is actually descriptive, and the other is like a sugar coat... It's like calling rape 'unconsentual sex', or murder 'life deprivation', so, ya... you can call it what you want, but I figured for the sake of honesty lets call them what they are : At bare minimum they are breaking the laws of this nation, which makes them criminal... that's every single immigrant that even overstays their welcome.

They have still dropped off the radar and are difficult or impossible to find.

Yes, they are... cockroaches can be notoriously difficult to kill, but if you find out your place is infested you don't start leaving plates of food on the ground for them.

http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ILL_PE_2005.pdf

Wrong.

Just over half of undocumented immigration into the US is from Mexico.

I can accept that, if you're willing to accept the fallacy of accurate numbers counted of "undocumented" criminal immigrants? At best representing an estimate.

Ok, are you going to pay for the cost of hunting down and processing ALL visa overstays in the US? Considering about half of all undocumented immigrants are visa overstays and there are roughly 11.5 million in the US currently, that should be just under six million people.

Attributing the cost of a phone call and a visit to the last known address, ya... I'd pony up for that... beyond that, it's just a matter of when a person gets pulled over that you check the citizenship status of everyone... with computers now, it'd just be a matter of tying into one extra database. You know, kinda what the federal law states about the issue.

Visa overstays go off the radar so they DONT get picked up and sent back, they're just as much in the wind as someone who crossed the border.

Yes they are... but at least there's a paper trail about them to start the search...

Actually there are about 70,000 Canadians here who are undocumented

That's what, about how many mexicans cross over illegally every couple months, approximately, some estimates depending on the area are of up to a thousand border hoppers every day. As for the canadians the cross over, well... I know in Canada that it's a matter of getting caught, there are VERY FEW employers that will hire a person without proper credentials... I dunno, that's an idea, that you make it more difficult for businesses to hire people that are not citizens...

They get an economic boost from capital, we get it from cheap labor.

Cheap labour that is essentially a giant sucking sound of money that instead of going back to the economy goes off to help the economies of other countries... Which wouldn't be a problem if the country wasn't already economically done for.

Dont give me the patriotic crap, it makes me choke when people start wheeling that out as a reason we should break our own laws to do something we dont actually NEED to do.

Sorry, you'll have to guide me through this one... since when is it against the law to enforce the immigration laws???

Also, why do we NOT need to again??? What if it was the mexican army that just crossed over,, would you accept them as 'undocumented immigrants', ask them if they wanna sign up for welfare? They can just park the tanks (or what they would call tanks) just wherever they want?? Hey, is that a good idea?

What's CRIMINAL is Obama's suing the state of Arizona, that is a clear violation of the 11th amendment and by anyone's definition of the word, this is a blatant act of TREASON. Ok, That's right... you believe in just letting anyone and everyone come in... and side against americans that have issue with that??? I don't say this lightly, but have you considered that you've been led to a set of beliefs that makes you a traitor to this country along side Obama??

Why should Mexico give a crap about OUR immigration problem? They've got WAY bigger problems. Expecting them to heave to when you snap your fingers is pretty arrogant.

They would do this to us... because OUR immigration problem is THEIR EMIGRATION problem. Listen to the treasonous congress applauding this disgrace...

So, yes, there's plenty of arrogance to go around.

I dislike Arizona's law because I feel that as a citizen I should be able to walk down the street and NOT be challenged at the street corner to prove I'm legally there or worry about leaving my house without my papers.

that's not what the law says. If you're walking down the street breaking windows, snatching purses, or whatever that's already a crime, and you can't prove your citizenship after you've been arrested, then you will begin the deportation process.

What would you say to a law that allowed police to search your home whenever they wanted to look for narcotics? That is how I feel about the Arizona law.

Why didn't you feel about that when it was the patriot act??? Oh, cause that's different, that was for turbin headed sand-n******* right?>? What you don't realize is that since the patriot act, what you fear because of arizona's attempt at immigration control is already there in the patriot act.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Just over half of undocumented immigration into the US is from Mexico.

Who cares about the undocumented immigrants? We're discussing illegal alien criminals. It doesn't matter where those cockroaches are from, we need to ge them out of the house.

Ok, are you going to pay for the cost of hunting down and processing ALL visa overstays in the US?

No.

The people who give them jobs are, because the federal government should fine them the cost of capturing and deporting their illegal alien criminal employees plus $10,000 for punishment.

For the first offense.

The second offense should be $20,000 and ten years in a federal pound them in the ass no white collar club fed for them prison.

Traitors typically serve life sentences, after all.

Considering about half of all undocumented immigrants are visa overstays and there are roughly 11.5 million in the US currently, that should be just under six million people.

According to the lunatic fringe that's been defending these illegal alien criminals, it's been 12 million "undocumented immigrant" aka INVADERS for the last two decades. Those loons like to low ball the figure to try to keep real Americans from demanding real action.

The real number is more like 25-30 megamexes.

The real number of unemployed real Americans is at least 30,000,000 people. The unemployment scene would be vastly improved if we started encouraging those criminal invaders to leave. If necessary, I've no objection to pushing them over their border with a bayonet.

They need to learn what "go away" means.

Visa overstays go off the radar so they DONT get picked up and sent back, they're just as much in the wind as someone who crossed the border.

Visa overstays are independently wealthy persons who do not need employment?

No?

Then they've got a job under false pretenses, and when employers begin to lose their businesses because they have Invaders, an Amnesty for Invader Employers will produce boat loads of Invaders on their way away from here.

I don't care if they go home or not, so long as they go away.

Actually there are about 70,000 Canadians here who are undocumented.

Then they need to go north.

Or south.

Or east.

Or west.

So long as their path crosses the border, and they don't come back, who cares? They're Canada's problem, they shouldn't be ours.

Get the picture?

Bull****. People doing what America is allegedly here to do is no threat to you.

America is here, not allegedly, but really, to protet MY freedoms, and the freedoms of my children and my fellow non-traitor citizens.

Illegal alien criminal invaders do not have any right to be here. That's what the word "illegal" means.

Also, you want to pretend those invaders aren't taking jobs from law abiding citizens, because it makes you feel good to pretend so, I suppose.

Guess what?

Criminal illegal alien invaders are hurting Americans by taking jobs, and even whole trades, away from citizens. Americans are small minority players in the sheet rocking, roofing, or gardening trades in Southern California.

Able bodies homeless can't find spot work because all the pick up areas near Home Depots are exclusively controlled by illegal alien criminal invaders.

They get an economic boost from capital, we get it from cheap labor.

We get no boost when the financial burden of the invaders and their spawn is tallied up, plus the burden of the workers and their families is added, plus the economics of the tens of billions of dollars shipped out of the country's economy every year.

And I have yet to see ANY feasible plans to do that aside from a system of controlled and regulated amnesty.

Must be because you refuse to read the feasible plans to cause the Invader to self-deport. I mean, you have to rescind your lie if you respond to this post.

Dont give me the patriotic crap, it makes me choke when people start wheeling that out as a reason we should break our own laws to do something we dont actually NEED to do.

Whatever.

We need to ship the Invader home, and no laws are being broken to do that.

Why should Mexico give a crap about OUR immigration problem?

Because the mood of the country is such that Mexico will hopefully soon be getting an influx of 20 million unhappy former Invaders who aren't going to like the poverty of the ****holes they left in Mexico. Mexico has been exporting it's problem to us, and turning that around won't be good for them.

They've got WAY bigger problems. Expecting them to heave to when you snap your fingers is pretty arrogant.

They don't need to do anything.

That's why you should read the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, paying close attention to the part where it says the US can fortify any portion of it's border with Mexico whenever it wants to .

Also, someday the United States will elect an American to the White House, and that American is going to respond to the violent border incursions with military force all the way back to Mexico City, if necessary.

And you're telling me you honestly believe that's the way it'll play out in enforcement?

And you're telling me that a police force that is nearly 50% hispanic is going to go gang busters targeting hispanics just for the hell of it?

Besides which, I say that the law should be modified to require checking residency status on 100% of all people stopped. Where's your argument now?

I dislike Arizona's law because

Because you hate America, Americans, law, honor, decency, and freedom.

What would you say to a law that allowed police to search your home whenever they wanted to look for narcotics? That is how I feel about the Arizona law.

What would you say about a law that puts people in jail for making up completely irrelevant comparisons that have no contact with reality?

 

[Hoplite]

Don't be delusional. Seriously.

Ok, I'm scoffing at the idea of Mexico wanting to INVADE the US by means of people hopping the border and I'M the one that's delusional?

First off, read the publicly available SPP documents... www.judicialwatch.com sued for these documents. Border crisis was named as one of the means of promoting 'integration'... If these documents are not a treaty, then they represent the plan of creating a treaty.

Ok, scout, click your own link.

But, aside from the fact that what you're calling 'lunatic fringe' is quite well documented, here's some of what you're clearly missing

Yes, Im missing a GREAT deal on a domain name.

Handbook of Texas Online - PLAN OF SAN DIEGO

It 'aint 1913 anymore, Mr. Vanwinkle.

This one is important

No, no it really isnt. None of them show anything but a group of people with political beliefs you dont share. There are people in the US who think Alaska and the South should secede from the US and be independent. There are people who think Texas should break away. Re-drawing borders isnt exactly something the Mexicans have a monopoly on. Your basic point is "OMG they want Texas!"

The difference is that one is actually descriptive, and the other is like a sugar coat... It's like calling rape 'unconsentual sex', or murder 'life deprivation', so, ya... you can call it what you want, but I figured for the sake of honesty lets call them what they are : At bare minimum they are breaking the laws of this nation, which makes them criminal... that's every single immigrant that even overstays their welcome.

Ok, your objection is noted. By the same token, I notice you go out of your way to deliberately pick the nastiest names possible, even going for the ever classy "cockroach" allusion below. Also, since they are here and we dont have any record of them being here, hence no documents regarding them, "undocumented" works just as well.

Bottom line: I call them "undocumented" because I think everyone deserves a shot, you call them "criminal" because you dont. We disagree fundamentally so we use different labels based on our views. If you dont like it, not my problem.

I can accept that, if you're willing to accept the fallacy of accurate numbers counted of "undocumented" criminal immigrants? At best representing an estimate.

"The numbers dont agree with my statement, so they must be wrong!"

Yeah, THAT isn't a confirmation bias.

Pick any numbers you want, just so long as you understand that those "Mexi-cans" make up half or so of the undocumented population.

Attributing the cost of a phone call and a visit to the last known address, ya... I'd pony up for that

Jesus, Moneybags, where did you make your millions?

Five million people, say you call each one once and you pay someone $7.25 and hour to make the calls and say five minutes per call to nail down that, yeah, they skipped town. So you're looking at just under 420,000 hours will run you about $3,045,000 to make a phone call.

Want to add a house call to that? Cool, now you need travel expenses, probably someone better paid than minimum wage who has ACTUAL training.

Start saving.

... beyond that, it's just a matter of when a person gets pulled over that you check the citizenship status of everyone... with computers now, it'd just be a matter of tying into one extra database. You know, kinda what the federal law states about the issue.

It's illegal for cops to search your car for drugs "just in case" you have them because there's no probable cause. Call me crazy for not being ok with cops checking my legal status "just in case" I'm not legal if they have no probable cause. And no, being brown and committing a crime is NOT probable cause for being undocumented.

Yes they are... but at least there's a paper trail about them to start the search...

A paper trail that leads to relatives that probably wont talk to you and an empty house/apartment and a boss who hasn't seen him/her in six months. Congrats, you wasted taxpayer money to figure something out you could have probably guessed. You still haven't told me where the money to pay for all this digging is going to come from.

That's what, about how many mexicans cross over illegally every couple months, approximately, some estimates depending on the area are of up to a thousand border hoppers every day. As for the canadians the cross over, well... I know in Canada that it's a matter of getting caught, there are VERY FEW employers that will hire a person without proper credentials... I dunno, that's an idea, that you make it more difficult for businesses to hire people that are not citizens...

My point was that not all undocumented immigrants are from south of the border, a fact that most of the anti-immigration crowd seems to have a hard time grasping.

Cheap labour that is essentially a giant sucking sound of money that instead of going back to the economy goes off to help the economies of other countries... Which wouldn't be a problem if the country wasn't already economically done for.

You dont see the benefit of cheap labor? Econ 101, if I dont have to pay as much for labor, I can charge lower prices and under-cut my competition, compensating for the lowering of profit by an increase in sales.

Also, why do we NOT need to again?

Because, frankly, the only problem I see is us wasting boatloads of cash trying to dig a hole in a swimming pool. We have a great opportunity to open America up to tens of thousands of new, legal, mostly hardworking, and TAX PAYING citizens. Yes there will be a short-term disruption of labor which will then be followed by a decrease in immigration.

What if it was the mexican army that just crossed over,, would you accept them as 'undocumented immigrants', ask them if they wanna sign up for welfare?

What if I had Leelee Sobieski here giving me a full body massage? We can fantasize all we want but, as I've said in the past, if wishes were fishes we'd all have a HELL of a lot more Omega 3 in our diets.

The Mexican army could care less about the US. They are dealing with a huge crime wave on top of a slumping economy AND narcoterrorism. Im sorry, but I refuse to entertain such a ridiculous idea.

What's CRIMINAL is Obama's suing the state of Arizona, that is a clear violation of the 11th amendment and by anyone's definition of the word, this is a blatant act of TREASON.

Laying out the law on immigration matters is a FEDERAL responsibility, not the state's.

Ok, That's right... you believe in just letting anyone and everyone come in... and side against americans that have issue with that???

Yeah, I actually do. I mean excuse me if I feel it a little hypocritical to be 6th or 7th generation American and slam the door behind you. America is and has always been about people coming here for a better shot. If that's more than just a pretty slogan on a button, you stand by it and as much as I think America is screwed up, I think people do have chances here they may not have other places.

I cant morally justify kicking out people who are usually doing nothing more sinister than trying to feed their families just because I want to preserve my property value. If that makes me a bad American in your eyes, I really do not care.

I don't say this lightly, but have you considered that you've been led to a set of beliefs that makes you a traitor to this country along side Obama?

Yeah, and like "toxic" vaccines, the 9/11 conspiracy, and the NWO I've dismissed them as lacking ideas. I stand for ideals that America had when my family came here. We weren't exactly welcomed with open arms, but we were given a shot and we did pretty good for a bunch of spud spanking Paddys. I just feel like I have a responsibility NOT to slam the door behind me now that me and mine are through.

They would do this to us... because OUR immigration problem is THEIR EMIGRATION problem. Listen to the treasonous congress applauding this disgrace...

So, yes, there's plenty of arrogance to go around.

Please, so you believe a political leader's speeches when it fits into your worldview but if it happens to conflict, **** them? The Mexican president kissing Congress' ass and patting their heads to assure them that "every effort is being made" to reduce immigration is a massive crock and I would expect you to be able to see that.

that's not what the law says. If you're walking down the street breaking windows, snatching purses, or whatever that's already a crime, and you can't prove your citizenship after you've been arrested, then you will begin the deportation process.

Why? The police have no probable cause to suspect that you are undocumented.

Why didn't you feel about that when it was the patriot act??? Oh, cause that's different, that was for turbin headed sand-n******* right?>? What you don't realize is that since the patriot act, what you fear because of arizona's attempt at immigration control is already there in the patriot act.

What makes you think I wasn't as upset about the PATRIOT act as I am about this? I think both laws are abhorrent and need to be repealed.