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Militarizing the Border

Some photographs of a few "undocumented immigrants" who just happened to "overstay" their visas:

2950359975_63343281e3.jpg


That should put the euphemizing traitors words in their proper perspective.

Nope.

No reason at all for the states to take action against innocent litle undocumented immigrants when Washington won't do it.
 
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Some photographs of a few "undocumented immigrants" who just happened to "overstay" their visas
Which actually helps support my position. These men did not sneak across a border so locking down the border wouldn't have helped stop this act of terrorism and so far as we can tell, most potential terrorists DONT hop the border. This means the argument that locking the border down helps prevent terrorism is actually not a good argument.
 
Yeah.


Whatever.

My position is that we should not discriminate between invaders.

ALL INVADERS should be hunted like the criminals they are and shipped out.
 
Yeah.

Whatever.
Like...totally, dude. I TOTALLY feel your angst!

Seriously, grow up.

My position is that we should not discriminate between invaders.

ALL INVADERS should be hunted like the criminals they are and shipped out.
How do you plan to pay for this mass exodus....and then again when you have to do it AGAIN in 10-20 years when many have returned?
 
How do you plan to pay for this mass exodus

Oh.

I see.

You like to pretend you haven't read the posts you've responded to.

Well, pretend I reposted the answer to the question you've already asked, and then you can pretend you haven't read it again.

....and then again when you have to do it AGAIN in 10-20 years when many have returned?

Why?

Will the laws I recommended be put into place be repealed for some strange reason, after you just admitted they would work in the first place?
 
Ok, I'm scoffing at the idea of Mexico wanting to INVADE the US by means of people hopping the border and I'M the one that's delusional?

No, NOT MEXICO, but portions of mexicans, including mexicans IN the US that are highly nationalistic as mexicans, who believe that the reason mexico sucks so bad is because the US stole the south west from them and it's their right and duty to take it back. That's not ALL mexicans either.

Ok, scout, click your own link.
Oops.. org, Judicial Watch | Fighting corruption & promoting transparency in government through public education and use of the Freedom of Information Act.

It 'aint 1913 anymore, Mr. Vanwinkle.

I was limited in the number of videos I could link... and the ones with people sporting the 'plan of san diego' t-shirts are somewhat more obscure to find... but they can be found on youtube.

No, no it really isnt. None of them show anything but a group of people with political beliefs you dont share. There are people in the US who think Alaska and the South should secede from the US and be independent. There are people who think Texas should break away. Re-drawing borders isnt exactly something the Mexicans have a monopoly on. Your basic point is "OMG they want Texas!"

More like the better part of the area between texas and California. Of course there are all different groups with different agendas... it's not 'OMG freaking out' it's, more like 'oh **** thousands of violent drug cartel gangs are exerting their influence IN US territory, are nationalistic, racist against white people, and there's also certain groups that are quite well funded because of their belief in the 'reconquista' (meccha and la raza namely)

Ok, your objection is noted. By the same token, I notice you go out of your way to deliberately pick the nastiest names possible, even going for the ever classy "cockroach" allusion below. Also, since they are here and we dont have any record of them being here, hence no documents regarding them, "undocumented" works just as well.

ya, it softens it, makes it seem nice and cuddly and like we should feel sorry for them violating our laws. As it is we have the most liberal immigration laws of just about anywhere in the world, but that's not enough that they even follow the minute pre-requisites that whatever culture you claim that you will join the american culture and become american... that's not the case with some of these criminal migrants.

Bottom line: I call them "undocumented" because I think everyone deserves a shot, you call them "criminal" because you dont. We disagree fundamentally so we use different labels based on our views. If you dont like it, not my problem.

They deserve a shot, of course... I'm not trying to deny anyone that... however, there are proper channels for this... and just jumping the border, or skipping out on your visa long enough to have a baby IS NOT the process that was intended.

"The numbers dont agree with my statement, so they must be wrong!"

Yeah, THAT isn't a confirmation bias.

Pick any numbers you want, just so long as you understand that those "Mexi-cans" make up half or so of the undocumented population.

Not at all, I'm will to accept half, I just asked that you accept that you're not going to have accurate numbers documenting people who desire strongly to NOT be documented.
It's illegal for cops to search your car for drugs "just in case" you have them because there's no probable cause. Call me crazy for not being ok with cops checking my legal status "just in case" I'm not legal if they have no probable cause. And no, being brown and committing a crime is NOT probable cause for being undocumented.

This isn't how it works... you get pulled over or stopped for something you've done wrong... you show your id, the cop checks your records gives you the ticket and you're off... if you're pulled over without your 'papers' you're in trouble ANYWAY... nothing changes, it's just that if you're not a legal citizen then the charge begins the process of your deportation.

A paper trail that leads to relatives that probably wont talk to you and an empty house/apartment and a boss who hasn't seen him/her in six months. Congrats, you wasted taxpayer money to figure something out you could have probably guessed. You still haven't told me where the money to pay for all this digging is going to come from.

My point was that not all undocumented immigrants are from south of the border, a fact that most of the anti-immigration crowd seems to have a hard time grasping.

Yes, but a paper trail is a good place to start for any investigator worth their salt.

You dont see the benefit of cheap labor? Econ 101, if I dont have to pay as much for labor, I can charge lower prices and under-cut my competition, compensating for the lowering of profit by an increase in sales.

Yes, and now mexico can't even compete with China either, so business is going with the cheap labor.. The sick part is that the transition to chinese goods has been made in such a way that exponentially increased the markups on these cheaply made items. Not only that, because we have so many illegal aliens that will work for a few bucks a day, now the benefit is to find and hire as many of them as possible and the citizens that do get hired for the same job will be getting paid much less... and with everyone making less money, and the illegals shipping portions of their earnings back to their country of origin... It's created that huge sucking sound of america's wealth disappearing (there's ALOT MORE to it then this though).

Because, frankly, the only problem I see is us wasting boatloads of cash trying to dig a hole in a swimming pool. We have a great opportunity to open America up to tens of thousands of new, legal, mostly hardworking, and TAX PAYING citizens. Yes there will be a short-term disruption of labor which will then be followed by a decrease in immigration.

Yea, and honestly, when it was boomtimes nobody cared, but now that it takes 6-8 weeks longer to find a job, it's not in america's interests to provide for foreigners (not legal citizens)as a priority over american citizens, who potentially could start dying because of a lack of an economy.

Laying out the law on immigration matters is a FEDERAL responsibility, not the state's.

Yes, but when the feds won't do something, it's up to the states to pick up the slack.

Yeah, I actually do. I mean excuse me if I feel it a little hypocritical to be 6th or 7th generation American and slam the door behind you. America is and has always been about people coming here for a better shot. If that's more than just a pretty slogan on a button, you stand by it and as much as I think America is screwed up, I think people do have chances here they may not have other places.

And 7 generations ago there was still a process to become AMERICAN... I believe in that process, it's not about 'slamming the door'... it's about getting them to knock first and introduce themselves before coming in. If they can't do that, in my own house if someone walks in unannounced and I don't know who they are, there's a fair chance that someone's going to get blasted away.

I cant morally justify kicking out people who are usually doing nothing more sinister than trying to feed their families just because I want to preserve my property value. If that makes me a bad American in your eyes, I really do not care.

No, I'm talking about making it so that the people that come in, that they do so legally, and if they are here temporarily that they leave when that time has come... nothing more.

What leads to so much treachery is that it's gone to the point where people are siding with the foreign power over their own national government. Honestly, in most any society the punishment for that type of crime has typically, historically, been a fatal punishment, I'm not calling for that though... I'm simply trying to point out that the spade is a spade.

Yeah, and like "toxic" vaccines, the 9/11 conspiracy, and the NWO I've dismissed them as lacking ideas.

I fail to see the relevance??

I stand for ideals that America had when my family came here. We weren't exactly welcomed with open arms, but we were given a shot and we did pretty good for a bunch of spud spanking Paddys. I just feel like I have a responsibility NOT to slam the door behind me now that me and mine are through.

Of course... we simply can't let EVERYBODY in, it's sad but it's true... but there's a process to becoming a citizen... part of that means taking on american allegience... it's just the way it is, and it was that way 7 generations ago as well... Hell, my family had their last name changed due to the racist policies at the time as well, trust me I know where I come from. I never said anything about slamming the door on anyone coming in legally. beyond an earlier suggestion that something like that MIGHT provide a solution for americans' benefits.

Please, so you believe a political leader's speeches when it fits into your worldview but if it happens to conflict, **** them? The Mexican president kissing Congress' ass and patting their heads to assure them that "every effort is being made" to reduce immigration is a massive crock and I would expect you to be able to see that.

The mere fact that the mexican president came in and lectured to our congress is an insult to what this country stands for and a slap in the face to national sovereignty.

Why? The police have no probable cause to suspect that you are undocumented.

They have probable cause to identify you because you were caught commiting a crime (or at least a misdemeanor)...

What makes you think I wasn't as upset about the PATRIOT act as I am about this? I think both laws are abhorrent and need to be repealed.

The patriot act is abhorrent on it's face... whereas the arizona law only has the potential to be abused, which should see officers face up if and when that issue comes up.

The government IS tasked with protecting the borders, if they aren't going to do it then it's up to the states.
 
Which actually helps support my position. These men did not sneak across a border so locking down the border wouldn't have helped stop this act of terrorism and so far as we can tell, most potential terrorists DONT hop the border. This means the argument that locking the border down helps prevent terrorism is actually not a good argument.

As usual your reasoning doesn't hold much water. What we haven't had is very many terrorists breaking in across a wide open southern border YET!!! The border is wide open and the terrorists know it and it's just a matter of time until the terrorists build up a system to get more terrorists into the US across the southern border. You paid laracist types will say anything in order to get your unwanted uninvited illegal cousin Paco, etc., into the US, won't you?
 
No, NOT MEXICO, but portions of mexicans, including mexicans IN the US that are highly nationalistic as mexicans, who believe that the reason mexico sucks so bad is because the US stole the south west from them and it's their right and duty to take it back. That's not ALL mexicans either.
Right...it's the lunatic fringe.

Ok, so what exactly am I looking for?

I was limited in the number of videos I could link... and the ones with people sporting the 'plan of san diego' t-shirts are somewhat more obscure to find... but they can be found on youtube.
And there are idiots walking around with "Dont Tread On Me" t-shirts, citing vague historical references is a specialty of a lot of "re-draw the borders with a crayon" people.

More like the better part of the area between texas and California. Of course there are all different groups with different agendas... it's not 'OMG freaking out' it's, more like 'oh **** thousands of violent drug cartel gangs are exerting their influence IN US territory, are nationalistic, racist against white people, and there's also certain groups that are quite well funded because of their belief in the 'reconquista' (meccha and la raza namely)
Can you prove ANY of this?

FYI, yes the technical literal definition of "la raza" is "the race" however it's far more commonly translated as "the people" and used as such by Chicano and Mestizo people that way.

They deserve a shot, of course... I'm not trying to deny anyone that... however, there are proper channels for this... and just jumping the border, or skipping out on your visa long enough to have a baby IS NOT the process that was intended.
I would agree with you if the official channels weren't next to impossible for the average person to get through.

http://reason.com/assets/db/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg

This isn't how it works... you get pulled over or stopped for something you've done wrong... you show your id, the cop checks your records gives you the ticket and you're off... if you're pulled over without your 'papers' you're in trouble ANYWAY... nothing changes, it's just that if you're not a legal citizen then the charge begins the process of your deportation.
Yeah, you show your DRIVER'S LICENSE or your state ID, not your birth certificate.

Yes, but a paper trail is a good place to start for any investigator worth their salt.
As I've pointed out, that salt is expensive.

Yes, and now mexico can't even compete with China either, so business is going with the cheap labor
You cant have it both ways. First you say Mexico is benefiting from money going back to them from people over here then you say they're hurting from losing business.

Yea, and honestly, when it was boomtimes nobody cared, but now that it takes 6-8 weeks longer to find a job, it's not in america's interests to provide for foreigners (not legal citizens)as a priority over american citizens, who potentially could start dying because of a lack of an economy.
So...American spirit only valid when times are good, gotcha.

Yes, but when the feds won't do something, it's up to the states to pick up the slack.
On the enforcement front, not the legal one.

And 7 generations ago there was still a process to become AMERICAN... I believe in that process, it's not about 'slamming the door'... it's about getting them to knock first and introduce themselves before coming in. If they can't do that, in my own house if someone walks in unannounced and I don't know who they are, there's a fair chance that someone's going to get blasted away.
That process is FAR different today than it's ever been as I have previously indicated.

What leads to so much treachery is that it's gone to the point where people are siding with the foreign power over their own national government. Honestly, in most any society the punishment for that type of crime has typically, historically, been a fatal punishment, I'm not calling for that though... I'm simply trying to point out that the spade is a spade.
Call a spade whatever you want, but I refuse to "stand with my government" simply because it's "my government" if I feel its doing something wrong.

I fail to see the relevance??
They are unsound ideas, as is the idea that I would be a traitor.

Actually, to be precise, the label of traitor is worthless as a denotion anyways as it's application is entirely subjective.

Of course... we simply can't let EVERYBODY in, it's sad but it's true... but there's a process to becoming a citizen... part of that means taking on american allegience... it's just the way it is, and it was that way 7 generations ago as well... Hell, my family had their last name changed due to the racist policies at the time as well, trust me I know where I come from. I never said anything about slamming the door on anyone coming in legally. beyond an earlier suggestion that something like that MIGHT provide a solution for americans' benefits.
Except the process we have now DOES slam the door in people's faces.

The mere fact that the mexican president came in and lectured to our congress is an insult to what this country stands for and a slap in the face to national sovereignty.
He's not lecturing, he's trying to sound like Mexico actually cares about immigration to secure the goodwill of Congress.

They have probable cause to identify you because you were caught commiting a crime (or at least a misdemeanor)...
But NOT check if you are a legal resident or not. If the law said "officers may use documents certifying a person's legal status in lieu of a drivers liscense or state ID to identify an individual when checking for ID" then I'd have no problem.

As it is, there is no probable cause to ask someone for proof of legal residence if they've committed a crime.

The patriot act is abhorrent on it's face... whereas the arizona law only has the potential to be abused, which should see officers face up if and when that issue comes up.
Do you honestly think people are going to care about police messing with undocumented immigrants? Hell there are people on this board who want to see them executed in the streets.

The government IS tasked with protecting the borders, if they aren't going to do it then it's up to the states.
As I have pointed out probably a billion and a half times before, the federal government IS protecting the borders. Just because you dont like how they're doing it doesn't mean states get the right to supersede the federal government. What do you think agencies like ICE do all day?

As usual your reasoning doesn't hold much water. What we haven't had is very many terrorists breaking in across a wide open southern border YET!!! The border is wide open and the terrorists know it and it's just a matter of time until the terrorists build up a system to get more terrorists into the US across the southern border.
So you're arguing that it MIGHT happen? Should we stop eating meat because our meat supply MIGHT be tainted with BSE?

I dont mind a proactive approach, so long as there's a reasonable suspicion. The US has the longest shared border in the world with Canada and most of it is largely non-existent. Why on EARTH would terrorists try to sneak in through Mexico when its so much easier to come in through Canada?

You paid laracist types will say anything in order to get your unwanted uninvited illegal cousin Paco, etc., into the US, won't you?
Racism is so unbecoming. I should point out that my last name is a town in Ireland, so the chances of my having ANY family member named Paco are quite slim and the part of my family that isn't here, doesn't want to come here.
 
Some photographs of a few "undocumented immigrants" who just happened to "overstay" their visas:

That should put the euphemizing traitors words in their proper perspective.

Nope.

No reason at all for the states to take action against innocent litle undocumented immigrants when Washington won't do it.

Oh - so because the government is afraid of the situation means that the states MUST tolerate it?

If Washington DC was in the south-west I feel their response and view would be MUCH different. . . I consider them to be disconnected hypocritical assholes in this situation.

Holy crap - how many things would never have happened if we just left it up to Washington to decide to care first? Almost everything starts *within* the states and spreads - gains support - which leads DC to take action or a side.

Often DC just doesn't give a damn until their seats are up for grabs.
 
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Right...it's the lunatic fringe.

Yes, but the "lunatic fringe" of 5 million people might still be a few hundred thousand individuals.

Ok, so what exactly am I looking for?
/spp.html would be most directly relating...
There's documents about arizona's lawsuit, documents surrounding illegal immigration, and a wide variety of non-immigration related issues... the main focus of judicial watch is using FOIA requests.

Can you prove ANY of this?

You won't like this one, but has much of the information I was looking for...
YouTube - Reconquista: Mexico's Fraudulent Land Claim

While I don't completely agree with Glenn Beck either,
YouTube - THE MEXICA MOVEMENT

YouTube - Mexican Nazi's Tell Black Minutemen To Leave Their Continent

YouTube - La Raza Mexicans Invade Texas Townhall

YouTube - Aztlan Reconquista

So I'm up to 10 videos... how many more before you catch on??

FYI, yes the technical literal definition of "la raza" is "the race" however it's far more commonly translated as "the people" and used as such by Chicano and Mestizo people that way.

It might mean 'the people'... but it's not meaning 'all people', just 'their people'... so, yes, in all intents and purposes it means 'the race'.

I would agree with you if the official channels weren't next to impossible for the average person to get through.

http://reason.com/assets/db/07cf533ddb1d06350cf1ddb5942ef5ad.jpg

Yes, that's more or less how it's ALWAYS been... or refugee cases. There are enough scumbag american's as it is, we don't need to import those that will be more of a drain... we can accept some in extreme cases, but we can't save the world...

Yeah, you show your DRIVER'S LICENSE or your state ID, not your birth certificate.

Your drivers license is enough to determine your citizenship status for the most part anyway, since you need 2 pieces of ID to get your drivers liscence in the first place.

As I've pointed out, that salt is expensive.

Is it really?? You'd really need a much more detailed cost-benefit analysis to convince me that it's truly the case.

You cant have it both ways. First you say Mexico is benefiting from money going back to them from people over here then you say they're hurting from losing business.

No, america's having it's wealth sucked out of it from Mexico, China, and a whole pile of select countries that have workers that will accept near slave wages. Of course Mexico is benefitting, but on the long haul, China is outcompeting with even mexican slave wages and so it's getting down to the drug money trickle down...

On the enforcement front, not the legal one.

State's don't have the right to create laws that are in effect only within that state?

That process is FAR different today than it's ever been as I have previously indicated.

But it's still one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world...

Call a spade whatever you want, but I refuse to "stand with my government" simply because it's "my government" if I feel its doing something wrong.
Yet you feel the american government siding with a foreign government over a state government is the american government doing a good job???

Don't you see that's the definition of treachery / treason??

They are unsound ideas, as is the idea that I would be a traitor.

Well, you're supporting a foreign people at the expense of your own nation... think about what that statement implies.

Actually, to be precise, the label of traitor is worthless as a denotion anyways as it's application is entirely subjective.

No, I'd say that since the main reason to have an army constitutionally is to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic... to protect the borders from outside attack. Now, when these Mexicans are coming in by the thousands with la infasora reconquista for la raza in their minds... and you choose to support the invading people... really, maybe you might need to rethink whose side you are on.

Except the process we have now DOES slam the door in people's faces.

People that have no expertise, no investment capital, no job and / or no interest in integration.... well, I don't see why they would get priority immigration status??

However, if the millions of border hopping illegal aliens had been stuck in Mexico, by now there would have been a popular uprising / revolution in their own country and they might actually become a free nation where, since they have probably triple the natural ressources of the US, their people could live like kings... instead Mexico's history is just of a long line of dictators that have reduced the country to it's current squalor.

He's not lecturing, he's trying to sound like Mexico actually cares about immigration to secure the goodwill of Congress.

Did you miss the part of his speech where he tells congress that they should ban the second amendment??

But NOT check if you are a legal resident or not. If the law said "officers may use documents certifying a person's legal status in lieu of a drivers liscense or state ID to identify an individual when checking for ID" then I'd have no problem.

Ya... make it so you can write 'citazun' on a piece of paper, that'd be legislation with teeth.

As it is, there is no probable cause to ask someone for proof of legal residence if they've committed a crime.

But you do need to provide ID if there is a probable cause, if not you'll be arrested until your identity can be verified... unless you're illegally in the country, then "its' not worth the time" and they are let go.

Do you honestly think people are going to care about police messing with undocumented immigrants? Hell there are people on this board who want to see them executed in the streets.

Ya, that wouldn't do any good either... but honestly, if and when the police are caught in any abuses they will still be punished... we should have a 'police of the police' in honesty, one that is answerable to the citizens.

As I have pointed out probably a billion and a half times before, the federal government IS protecting the borders. Just because you dont like how they're doing it doesn't mean states get the right to supersede the federal government. What do you think agencies like ICE do all day?

Yes, they do protect the border in a way that's simply pathetic and only deals with a fraction of the border. I'll try and find the group that's taken the aerial photos to prove how pitiful the border protection is... now, I'm not saying the work they DO is pitiful, I'm saying the job they can get accomplished in the grand scheme of the problem is pitiful... much like DEA only catching an estimated 1 out of 10 drug shipments into the country.
 
Yes, but the "lunatic fringe" of 5 million people might still be a few hundred thousand individuals.
Weighed against 30 million people. There are tens of thousands of Dominionists in the US as well. We have now and have ALWAYS had groups and people in the US that want the US to be something other than what it is, it isnt a new phenomenon.

/spp.html would be most directly relating...
There's documents about arizona's lawsuit, documents surrounding illegal immigration, and a wide variety of non-immigration related issues... the main focus of judicial watch is using FOIA requests.
"Page not found"

So I'm up to 10 videos... how many more before you catch on??
To what? That there are groups and people in the US that want the US to be something other than what it is? Yeah, I get that.

It might mean 'the people'... but it's not meaning 'all people', just 'their people'... so, yes, in all intents and purposes it means 'the race'.
Even if you're right, SO WHAT? They consider themselves better than everyone else, so do most Americans by the sheer virtue of being American.

Yes, that's more or less how it's ALWAYS been... or refugee cases. There are enough scumbag american's as it is, we don't need to import those that will be more of a drain... we can accept some in extreme cases, but we can't save the world...
No one's asking you to save the world. All I'm saying is let the US be subject to the same sort of immigration/emigration forces that many other countries experience WITHOUT collapsing.

Your drivers license is enough to determine your citizenship status for the most part anyway, since you need 2 pieces of ID to get your drivers liscence in the first place.
Ok then, so why the need to go the extra step to verify their citizenship?

Is it really?? You'd really need a much more detailed cost-benefit analysis to convince me that it's truly the case.
I gave you one that was probably as best-case scenario as you're going to get.

No, america's having it's wealth sucked out of it from Mexico, China, and a whole pile of select countries that have workers that will accept near slave wages. Of course Mexico is benefitting, but on the long haul, China is outcompeting with even mexican slave wages and so it's getting down to the drug money trickle down...
Really? Because last I checked it was our own unwillingness to regulate our own financial industry that broke our financial legs, not undocumented immigrants sending money home.

State's don't have the right to create laws that are in effect only within that state?
This will explain it far better than I can
Arizona SB 1070 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But it's still one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world...
...ok? And?

Yet you feel the american government siding with a foreign government over a state government is the american government doing a good job???
I feel that governments need to act collectively for the biggest positive impact for the most possible people in this day and age.

Don't you see that's the definition of treachery / treason??
You're acting like I'm selling state secrets to Al-Qaeda

Well, you're supporting a foreign people at the expense of your own nation... think about what that statement implies.
It implies I made a moral judgement that DIDN'T work out the way you think it should.

The label of "traitor" is a meaningless label for one very simple reason; it's completely subjective. Take the people who founded the US, they were traitors in the British eyes and would have been executed as such had they been caught. We consider them heroes because that feeds our mythos.

So who is right? Are they heroes or traitors? They cant be both, they are mutually exclusive ideas. We could say they are British traitors but American heroes...but that still leaves us with the problem that the label is ENTIRELY in the eye of the beholder and as such only has as much weight as the user wants it to.

No, I'd say that since the main reason to have an army constitutionally is to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic... to protect the borders from outside attack. Now, when these Mexicans are coming in by the thousands with la infasora reconquista for la raza in their minds... and you choose to support the invading people... really, maybe you might need to rethink whose side you are on.
And you accuse ME of loaded language.

Despite what you may have read on WorldNutDaily, Mexicans are NOT invading the US and I dont see any real political support for any sort of Reconquista efforts in even local politics. Its a hysterical fear, get over it.

And our laws say that the armed forces are not to be used to enforce domestic law except in times of emergency.

People that have no expertise, no investment capital, no job and / or no interest in integration.... well, I don't see why they would get priority immigration status??
So, we're treating people like a commodity? Yeah, that I'm not ok with.

Now we have to get into detail. Do we accept a PHD with a documented drug habit instead of a model citizen who didnt graduate high school? Do we expect people who have never had access to higher education to match our educational standards? Do we spend months drawing up criteria for EVERY country of origin based on statistical information about that country? We'd better, I mean we dont want to miss out on the best picks.

However, if the millions of border hopping illegal aliens had been stuck in Mexico, by now there would have been a popular uprising / revolution in their own country and they might actually become a free nation where, since they have probably triple the natural ressources of the US, their people could live like kings... instead Mexico's history is just of a long line of dictators that have reduced the country to it's current squalor.
Mexico IS a free nation, they are a first world country the same as the US. Yes they are somewhat politically unstable at the moment due to narcoterrorism and the economic crash, but Mexico is no more or less free than we are.

Did you miss the part of his speech where he tells congress that they should ban the second amendment??
And I think after the full body massage, Leelee Sobiseki should play tonsil hockey with Camilla Belle while wearing various amounts of form-fitting clothing and I get to watch. EVERYBODY has opinions and I guarantee you I'm no more likely to get my way than Calderon is to get his.

By the way, where exactly was that part? I saw the full speech and your clip, neither contained any statement to that effect.

But you do need to provide ID if there is a probable cause, if not you'll be arrested until your identity can be verified... unless you're illegally in the country, then "its' not worth the time" and they are let go
Can you show that this is the case today.

Ya, that wouldn't do any good either... but honestly, if and when the police are caught in any abuses they will still be punished... we should have a 'police of the police' in honesty, one that is answerable to the citizens.
Except your average citizen is a complete moron when it comes to law enforcement. People bitch if there's too few police, they bitch if there's too many. There's a REASON we dont democratically elect the Chief of Police.

I agree we need police oversight, but not by citizens.

Yes, they do protect the border in a way that's simply pathetic and only deals with a fraction of the border. I'll try and find the group that's taken the aerial photos to prove how pitiful the border protection is... now, I'm not saying the work they DO is pitiful, I'm saying the job they can get accomplished in the grand scheme of the problem is pitiful... much like DEA only catching an estimated 1 out of 10 drug shipments into the country.
I've already addressed this here and elsewhere and I'm tired of repeating myself.
 
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Weighed against 30 million people. There are tens of thousands of Dominionists in the US as well. We have now and have ALWAYS had groups and people in the US that want the US to be something other than what it is, it isnt a new phenomenon.

Right, but what IS a new phenomenon is to have these foreigners operating within the US, illegally, who are bent on this dominion... meanwhile the Mexican government is pushing for 'integration' of the three countries, and has expressed his discontent about this integration taking longer then he's expected.

"Page not found"

Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America | Judicial Watch

This one works, I clicked it to make sure... I hope you actually read through the approximately 150-200 pages of documentation there.

To what? That there are groups and people in the US that want the US to be something other than what it is? Yeah, I get that.

That there's a segment of the illegal immigrants who view themselves as Mexicans and want to 'reconquer' what they view as the stolen territory of mexico.

Even if you're right, SO WHAT? They consider themselves better than everyone else, so do most Americans by the sheer virtue of being American.

No, it's like the KKK, they didn't only think that they were BETTER then black people, they wanted TO KILL THE BLACKS. In the same way these virulantly racist organizations coming from Mexico into the US not only think that they are better then americans, they WANT TO KILL AMERICANS, take their land back and send the americans back to europe.

No one's asking you to save the world. All I'm saying is let the US be subject to the same sort of immigration/emigration forces that many other countries experience WITHOUT collapsing.

Ok... let's just import ALL of the worlds criminals, rapists, pedophiles, murderers, drug dealers... let's bring them ALL.. throw down a red carpet for them while we're at it... everybody knows we don't have enough criminals here... sure maybe some of them might actually be productive and want a better life... but sure, let's just let EVERYBODY into the country....

Ok then, so why the need to go the extra step to verify their citizenship?

Because there's an epidemic level of illegal immigration.

I gave you one that was probably as best-case scenario as you're going to get.

You listed a bunch of costs... but if you deport an illegal alien collecting welfare, then you offset the cost of that deportation through tax money that's not going into the hands of a person who legally should not get it, and so requires a true cost-benefit analysis to come to a decision.

Really? Because last I checked it was our own unwillingness to regulate our own financial industry that broke our financial legs, not undocumented immigrants sending money home.

This is multi-faceted... what you mention is probably the most important reason... but in the list of reasons, the economic issues caused by the millions of illegal immigrants in the US is definately in the top 5 of factors.

This will explain it far better than I can
Arizona SB 1070 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Of course, the ACLU claiming the supremacy clause... that's such a load of BS I'm fighting from laughing.

The supremacy clause states that in cases of conflicts between federal or state laws the federal law trumps... So, a state cannot decide to legalize marijuana because the federal law states it's illegal to possess, and the federal law would trump the states...

This is NOT the case, the arizona law essentially mimics the federal laws which are not being enforced and are saying that if the feds aren't going to enforce the federal law then the states will take it on themselves, and the feds are trying to say that if they aren't enforcing a crime then supremacy states that the states cannot take the initiative... which is patently ridiculous given that it's the individual that is sovereign in the US with the government tasks kept at the most local level possible...

This is being shifted in a different direction more and more though.

So, even with the supremacy clause all that can serve to do is demonstrate how the federal government is derelict in one of their prime duties.

...ok? And?

And you're saying that we're not taking in enough people and the standards for people coming in is too high, in spite of the fact that almost anywhere else in the world the countries are MUCH more stringent about who they allow to become citizens, and we should take on even more people which is only going to exacerbate current problems...

I feel that governments need to act collectively for the biggest positive impact for the most possible people in this day and age.

Oh, ok, I should have figured you're a communist.

Ok, the biggest impact for the most possible people : 300 million americans... an estimated 10-12 million illegal aliens (according to wiki). So, for the biggest positive benefit of the 300 million americans, 40+ million are on food stamps, more on unemployment, or jobless.

So, for the biggest positive impact getting rid of those 10+ million illegal immigrants so that 10+ million americans would be able to take those jobs and become tax payers... which benefits the other 290+ million americans through a lower shared tax burden...

Then, those 10+ million deported would know what the life was like in a free country and the taste of freedom burning in their hearts would hopefully spur them into fighting for that kind of freedom in Mexico... if they succeed then Mexicans would have less of a need to escape from that tyrannical system, and that would also serve to benefit the 100+ million mexicans... So, do you see the fallacy of your doing nothing yet??
 
Note : I really tried to cut it shorter... but on every point.

You're acting like I'm selling state secrets to Al-Qaeda

no, I'm acting like you're favoring seditious mexican illegal immigrants at the expense of your home country... it's the same category of crime as selling state secrets.

It implies I made a moral judgement that DIDN'T work out the way you think it should.

The label of "traitor" is a meaningless label for one very simple reason; it's completely subjective. Take the people who founded the US, they were traitors in the British eyes and would have been executed as such had they been caught. We consider them heroes because that feeds our mythos.

So who is right? Are they heroes or traitors? They cant be both, they are mutually exclusive ideas. We could say they are British traitors but American heroes...but that still leaves us with the problem that the label is ENTIRELY in the eye of the beholder and as such only has as much weight as the user wants it to.

The founding fathers knew they were traitors to the crown... they made that moral judgement to defect and to fight to create their own nation.

Let's put it into a perspective as they faced it : Are you in support of the constitution, bill of rights and life in a free country? Or are you in support of the Mexican ideal, the Chinese Ideal, or some other communist / socialist regime??

You cannot have it both ways... Obama's made his decision clear... he chose to act as a traitor to the constitution and the country by illegally suing the state of arizona on behalf of a foreign nation. If you're supporting this, then you've picked the side that is traitorous to the constitution and everything this country stands for...

So, pick your side, because sooner or later it's going to come down to everyone coming to that decision.

And you accuse ME of loaded language.

Despite what you may have read on WorldNutDaily, Mexicans are NOT invading the US and I dont see any real political support for any sort of Reconquista efforts in even local politics. Its a hysterical fear, get over it.

No, the mexican ARMY is not invading... however, the drug cartels and others that would fit the common description of terrorist ARE invading... and this isn't 'worldnutdaily' this is FOX / CNN reporting how 80+ miles in the US, or more in some places, there are areas deemed 'unsafe' for american citizens, and we're talking in national parks...

It's not a 'hysterical fear'... it's a red blooded reaction. A thousand years ago, if you saw a thousand people walking up to your village, you wouldn't walk up and shake their hands, you'd rally the men to pick up their weapons and prepare for war... and if those thousand people turned out to be friendly THEN you would shake their hands and welcome them.

Americans are being killed IN AMERICA by Mexican nationals. Police Chiefs have been killed, there are regular shootouts at the border, theres' drug and human trafficking going on... and you seem to have this free love hippie concept that everyone is crossing to be friendly.

WAKE UP!!!

And our laws say that the armed forces are not to be used to enforce domestic law except in times of emergency.

Aside from the fact that posse comatatis has been sheared to a fraction of what it once meant (look at the army policing during the Pittsburgh G-20)...

This isn't 'enforcing domestic law' this is 'border protection' which IS a legally justifiable use of military forces... it's FAR MORE justifiable to have a line of tanks patrolling the borders rather then having that line of tanks patrolling Iraq. It's SUCH A BASIC concept that the founding fathers didn't even feel the need to MENTION border protection in the constitution... it's AN ASSUMED function of the military.

So, we're treating people like a commodity? Yeah, that I'm not ok with.

Get over it... people are a commodity when you're talking immigration... are you aware that if you have a criminal record other countries won't even allow you TO VISIT, nevermind move there???

The fact is that countries are interested in IMPROVING their society, not in allowing it to degrade through inviting any sort of scumbag that will just serve as a drain on resources. It's the way it is...

Now we have to get into detail. Do we accept a PHD with a documented drug habit instead of a model citizen who didnt graduate high school? Do we expect people who have never had access to higher education to match our educational standards? Do we spend months drawing up criteria for EVERY country of origin based on statistical information about that country? We'd better, I mean we dont want to miss out on the best picks.

No, you would draw the criteria prioritzed for where there are perceived needs in society... if you have Doctors needed in a certain area then you'll prioritize for those needs.

It's a symbiotic relationship... as an immigrant you have a 'need' to relocate, and as the target country you have needs for the society... and if the only thing an immigrant is offering is the capacity to fill out welfare forms, then frankly, they will only serve as a drain... it's been like that for at least a half-century.

Mexico IS a free nation, they are a first world country the same as the US. Yes they are somewhat politically unstable at the moment due to narcoterrorism and the economic crash, but Mexico is no more or less free than we are.

That WOULD be true, if it wasn't on the verge of being deemed a 'failed state' according to the IMF World Economic Outlook Database April 2010 -- WEO Groups and Aggregates Information , Mexico is among the 'Emerging and Developing Economies'. Mexico has TREMENDOUS natural wealth, probably triple what the US has... but Mexico's main problem is that it's an ultra-wealthy elite few, and a small middle / working class which dominates their massive levels of poor people.

The difference being : If you're in a resort / controlled area; then the various cities that are better patrolled, and the large territories where it's lawlessness.

But even then, it happens quite regularly for the cops to shake people down for their money, or throw them in jail... but now, it's becoming more and more public about just how many murders go on... I can't remember statistics at the moment, every week lately I've heard news reports of Mayors getting pulled out of their homes and beheaded,,, the one newscast I read added 'he was lucky he wasn't raped first'.

Literally, the resort zones are probably the only distinction saving Mexico from total road warrior level collapse.

And I think after the full body massage, Leelee Sobiseki should play tonsil hockey with Camilla Belle while wearing various amounts of form-fitting clothing and I get to watch. EVERYBODY has opinions and I guarantee you I'm no more likely to get my way than Calderon is to get his.

By the way, where exactly was that part? I saw the full speech and your clip, neither contained any statement to that effect.

YouTube - Calderon wants Congress to Renew Ban on Assault Weapons
(Pay attention to where the applause happens)

Can you show that this is the case today.

Next time a cop asks to see your id ask for his probable cause.

Except your average citizen is a complete moron when it comes to law enforcement. People bitch if there's too few police, they bitch if there's too many. There's a REASON we dont democratically elect the Chief of Police.

As long as the ratio remains in the area of 1-2 police per thousand people in the city, I won't generally bitch about it... though I would bitch if the police were commonly abusing their powers regardless of numbers...

I agree we need police oversight, but not by citizens.

No, but at least by a group that remains in direct contact, and that these people be changed relatively frequently, so as to reduce the risk of bribery.
 
Right, but what IS a new phenomenon is to have these foreigners operating within the US, illegally, who are bent on this dominion... meanwhile the Mexican government is pushing for 'integration' of the three countries, and has expressed his discontent about this integration taking longer then he's expected.
The US, Canada, AND Mexico are interested in a North American Union. I'm not dealing with this paranoid crap.

Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America | Judicial Watch

This one works, I clicked it to make sure... I hope you actually read through the approximately 150-200 pages of documentation there.
Ok, so all three governments are exploring some form of political unity for economic reasons, so what? From everything I see here, it's still in the "We like the idea, but we have NO clue how it will work" stage.

That there's a segment of the illegal immigrants who view themselves as Mexicans and want to 'reconquer' what they view as the stolen territory of mexico.
I've never denied these people existed, I simply called them "marginal idiots".

No, it's like the KKK, they didn't only think that they were BETTER then black people, they wanted TO KILL THE BLACKS. In the same way these virulantly racist organizations coming from Mexico into the US not only think that they are better then americans, they WANT TO KILL AMERICANS, take their land back and send the americans back to europe.
Yeah, and that worked SO well for the KKK. Refresh my memory, what's the emigration rate from the US to Europe?

Ok... let's just import ALL of the worlds criminals, rapists, pedophiles, murderers, drug dealers... let's bring them ALL.. throw down a red carpet for them while we're at it... everybody knows we don't have enough criminals here... sure maybe some of them might actually be productive and want a better life... but sure, let's just let EVERYBODY into the country....
This little tirade is irrelevant in the extreme because I have suggested no such thing and we arent talking about rapists, pedophiles, drug dealers, or murderers. I have suggested extending amnesty to all law abiding undocumented residents of the US in exchange for a temporary citizenship, full citizenship contingent upon a good tax history and no serious criminal record.

Because there's an epidemic level of illegal immigration.
Yes that MUST be why the influx is actually DROPPING.
The Truth About Arizona & SB 1070

You listed a bunch of costs... but if you deport an illegal alien collecting welfare, then you offset the cost of that deportation through tax money that's not going into the hands of a person who legally should not get it, and so requires a true cost-benefit analysis to come to a decision.
Can you show me the cost of deportation for a single individual AND that said individual can/is receiving welfare without being a documented citizen?

This is multi-faceted... what you mention is probably the most important reason... but in the list of reasons, the economic issues caused by the millions of illegal immigrants in the US is definately in the top 5 of factors.
How?

And you're saying that we're not taking in enough people and the standards for people coming in is too high, in spite of the fact that almost anywhere else in the world the countries are MUCH more stringent about who they allow to become citizens, and we should take on even more people which is only going to exacerbate current problems...
So because we're not quite as big of dicks as everyone, that's good?

Oh, ok, I should have figured you're a communist.
Socialist, actually.

"Same thing!"

Call a Protestant a Catholic and see if it's "the same thing"

Ok, the biggest impact for the most possible people : 300 million americans... an estimated 10-12 million illegal aliens (according to wiki). So, for the biggest positive benefit of the 300 million americans, 40+ million are on food stamps, more on unemployment, or jobless.
Source?

So, for the biggest positive impact getting rid of those 10+ million illegal immigrants so that 10+ million americans would be able to take those jobs and become tax payers... which benefits the other 290+ million americans through a lower shared tax burden...

Then, those 10+ million deported would know what the life was like in a free country and the taste of freedom burning in their hearts would hopefully spur them into fighting for that kind of freedom in Mexico... if they succeed then Mexicans would have less of a need to escape from that tyrannical system, and that would also serve to benefit the 100+ million mexicans... So, do you see the fallacy of your doing nothing yet??
Mexico is not a third world country. They have a democratically elected leadership and a government that is fairly progressive. They have done a lot to try to mirror the US' style of government and considering the problems they face, they're doing pretty well.

You seem to have this idealistic view that patriotism and a nebulous idea of "freedom" is infectious and that Mexico is some ****hole country under the rule of a brutal dictatorship.
 
no, I'm acting like you're favoring seditious mexican illegal immigrants at the expense of your home country... it's the same category of crime as selling state secrets.
Bull****. I'm saying I dont care what political beliefs people have, you dont have a right to treat them like crap because of their beliefs. If they act on those beliefs, that's another story. When you can show me a cell of Mexicans here to overthrow the US, we'll talk.

But for now, keep your paranoia, it doesn't wash out of clothes well.

The founding fathers knew they were traitors to the crown... they made that moral judgement to defect and to fight to create their own nation.
Except in the British judgement, they were traitors. Who is right?

NOBODY! It's a ****ing meaningless and subjective label that has no place in an objective discussion!

Let's put it into a perspective as they faced it : Are you in support of the constitution, bill of rights and life in a free country? Or are you in support of the Mexican ideal, the Chinese Ideal, or some other communist / socialist regime??
I am in support of whatever will do the most good for the most number of people, full stop.

You cannot have it both ways... Obama's made his decision clear... he chose to act as a traitor to the constitution and the country by illegally suing the state of arizona on behalf of a foreign nation. If you're supporting this, then you've picked the side that is traitorous to the constitution and everything this country stands for...
So shoot me.

So, pick your side, because sooner or later it's going to come down to everyone coming to that decision.
No, no it isnt. It never has and it never will. The world is not a binary place and it irritates me when people damage discussion on issues by trying to force it into such a position. There is more beyond yes/no black/white left/right chocolate/vanilla.

People like simple, binary choices because that means (usually) that one is right, one is wrong. They want to process the information they have and make a choice for the correct answer and then put the issue down. Sorry, kid, the world doesnt work that way. It is infinitely more complex than you seem to be able to comprehend.

You are trying to make a 4-dimensional world into something that will fit in a picture book and by doing so, you're focusing on trying to be right and forgetting that it's more important to help people than be right.

See I can psychoanalyze too :)

No, the mexican ARMY is not invading... however, the drug cartels and others that would fit the common description of terrorist ARE invading... and this isn't 'worldnutdaily' this is FOX / CNN reporting how 80+ miles in the US, or more in some places, there are areas deemed 'unsafe' for american citizens, and we're talking in national parks...
There are places deemed 'unsafe' in major metrocenters across the country, so what?

It's not a 'hysterical fear'... it's a red blooded reaction. A thousand years ago, if you saw a thousand people walking up to your village, you wouldn't walk up and shake their hands, you'd rally the men to pick up their weapons and prepare for war... and if those thousand people turned out to be friendly THEN you would shake their hands and welcome them.
Except we're past that stage now. We have greater understanding and more means of communication than our ancestors could dream of. We dont HAVE to fall-back on those instinctual drives, we can make more informed choices.

Americans are being killed IN AMERICA by Mexican nationals.
...And? Im sure American nationals kill people in other countries too, you're acting like ONLY Mexican nationals do this.

Police Chiefs have been killed, there are regular shootouts at the border, theres' drug and human trafficking going on... and you seem to have this free love hippie concept that everyone is crossing to be friendly.
Because most people that cross the border AREN'T killing people left and right.

WAKE UP!!!
tin-foil-hat.jpg


Aside from the fact that posse comatatis has been sheared to a fraction of what it once meant (look at the army policing during the Pittsburgh G-20)...

This isn't 'enforcing domestic law' this is 'border protection' which IS a legally justifiable use of military forces... it's FAR MORE justifiable to have a line of tanks patrolling the borders rather then having that line of tanks patrolling Iraq. It's SUCH A BASIC concept that the founding fathers didn't even feel the need to MENTION border protection in the constitution... it's AN ASSUMED function of the military.
The military is not protecting the border from invasion by another military power. Use all the language you want, the vast majority of people who cross the border are trying to make money and could probably care less about politics beyond a cursory opinion.

Get over it... people are a commodity when you're talking immigration... are you aware that if you have a criminal record other countries won't even allow you TO VISIT, nevermind move there???
And there are countries that shoot Jews on sight. Why do you keep bringing up things that are COMPLETELY irrelevant?

No, you would draw the criteria prioritzed for where there are perceived needs in society... if you have Doctors needed in a certain area then you'll prioritize for those needs.
No, actually, I'd have a domestic initiative to train more doctors, not rely on imports.

That WOULD be true, if it wasn't on the verge of being deemed a 'failed state' according to the IMF World Economic Outlook Database April 2010 -- WEO Groups and Aggregates Information , Mexico is among the 'Emerging and Developing Economies'. Mexico has TREMENDOUS natural wealth, probably triple what the US has... but Mexico's main problem is that it's an ultra-wealthy elite few, and a small middle / working class which dominates their massive levels of poor people.
That sounds eerily like the US. I should point out that the IMF is not exactly a non-biased entity.

Literally, the resort zones are probably the only distinction saving Mexico from total road warrior level collapse.
Police take bribes because their pay sucks. Symptom of an economic crisis.

Ok, the guy supports gun control, why is this an issue?

Also, for funsies.
Top List TIV Tables

Next time a cop asks to see your id ask for his probable cause.
Asking to see ID is not the same thing as asking you to prove your citizenship.

As long as the ratio remains in the area of 1-2 police per thousand people in the city, I won't generally bitch about it... though I would bitch if the police were commonly abusing their powers regardless of numbers...
Exactly. Citizens are NEVER happy with police, ever. If they do their jobs, they get in trouble. If they DONT do their jobs, they get in trouble.

No, but at least by a group that remains in direct contact, and that these people be changed relatively frequently, so as to reduce the risk of bribery.
Or you could, y'know, actually pay police officers well for the job they do and worry less about politics. That does a lot to reduce instances of malfeasance.
 
Is there an indication that drugs, gangs, and terrorists get into the US principally through the border?

The 9/11 hijackers all had visas and even though our border situation is supposed to be "deplorable" now, there is no indication of any terrorists crossing the border.

Besides, the Canadian border is MUCH better for crossing than the Southern border; it's more open and in a lot of places isnt even marked.

The "protect our borders from terrorist" is BS
Signs in Arizona warn of smuggler dangers - Washington Times

Think again.
 
The US, Canada, AND Mexico are interested in a North American Union. I'm not dealing with this paranoid crap.

Ok, so all three governments are exploring some form of political unity for economic reasons, so what? From everything I see here, it's still in the "We like the idea, but we have NO clue how it will work" stage.

This gave me a laugh : It's going on, but it's paranoid crap if you oppose it... have you read 'rules for radicals'??

BTW, did you read the part about how this 'integration process must be done in secret'?

This little tirade is irrelevant in the extreme because I have suggested no such thing and we arent talking about rapists, pedophiles, drug dealers, or murderers. I have suggested extending amnesty to all law abiding undocumented residents of the US in exchange for a temporary citizenship, full citizenship contingent upon a good tax history and no serious criminal record.

To collate some of the things you've said : "We shouldn't close the door", "I don't see a problem with people wanting a better life", "We shouldn't treat people like a commodity", "It's too costly to deport people or to even try and find them". Now you're suggesting that ANYONE that's made it across the border should be given citizenship... how are you going to check that these people don't have a criminal record?? Ask them?

The fact is that you CANNOT provide this sort of blanket amnesty without accepting as citizens all the foreign criminals that have made it across the border. You think the criminals are going to tell you their REAL name so you can see that they are a serial rapist or whatever??

Yes that MUST be why the influx is actually DROPPING.
The Truth About Arizona & SB 1070

Again, we're relying on accurate counting of individuals who, by definition, want to avoid being counted... either way, the criminality around the border regions are on the rise and is spilling over into US territory.


1 - Health care : every baby born to an "undocumented" criminal migrant is paid for by taxpayer funds ultimately. I've yet to see the tally personally, but I'm told that having a baby can cost several thousand dollars in health care.
2 - Lowering wages : If there are throngs of illegal immigrants offering to work a job for fraction of the money that an american worker would demand, then over time it drags down the wage expectations of all americans working similar jobs since they now have to compete for those jobs at the lower wages.
3 - Lost tax revenue : An illegal alien isn't paying taxes... I could expand on this, but enough said.
4 - Center for Immigration Studies 10-20 BILLION dollars goes to illegal immigrants through social programs each year...

So because we're not quite as big of dicks as everyone, that's good?

More like cause we're bigger chumps then anyone and will put up with any BS that gets sold to us.

Socialist, actually.
"Same thing!"
Call a Protestant a Catholic and see if it's "the same thing"

I do know that it's not the same thing... one problem with this concept in america : The US constitution was written in such a way that the large government that would be required of a socialist state is completely beyond what is constitutionally acceptable... yes, I'm sure you can find a lawyer that can twist the meanings to make it 'sound' palatable... the fact is that it's not workable within the constitution... you could use your votes to make your STATE more socialist, but not federally...

Why not move to Canada, the canadian charter is written in such a way to allow for a socialist republic... wouldn't you be happier there?

It boggles my mind, people will argue that the US should be more like China, or other countries systems... if people hate america so much, why not expatriate yourself and take allegiance with one of those countries where the system would be more to your liking, rather then creating a situation in the country that will lead to a revolution?

Mexico is not a third world country. They have a democratically elected leadership and a government that is fairly progressive. They have done a lot to try to mirror the US' style of government and considering the problems they face, they're doing pretty well.

Yes, but zimbabwe could also try to mimic the US government, that wouldn't make it a first world nation...

You seem to have this idealistic view that patriotism and a nebulous idea of "freedom" is infectious and that Mexico is some ****hole country under the rule of a brutal dictatorship.

Freedom IS SO INFECTIOUS that not so long ago a group of people fighting for freedom in their country went up against a team of snipers armed only with slingshots, and they fought for days before finally all being killed or captured. Freedom is SO INFECTIOUS that the during the war for independance fought against 10:1 odds. Freedom is SO INFECTIOUS that a single man was willing to face down a tank in tiananmen square JUST for the right to protest.

The problems been getting exponentially worse since we've began trading some of that freedom for the 'security' against terrorism.... hell, I remember my grampa reading the newspaper and just shaking his head saying that the country has turned into a police state.... IN THE EARLY 90's. So, I see the importance of what the founding fathers meant of why government needs to be kept small, why the people need to be free, and the dangers that arise if we fail to keep these freedoms strong.

While, Mexico, for the most part IS a squalid cesspit... but then within that cesspit are pristine jewels. And while Mexico has had a long string of dictators, it is FAR from a free country. A quick search of google news for 'mexican protest gunned-down' gave more results then I could reasonably pick one to cite example, and contained stories of protestors getting killed afterwards in their own homes, entire protests getting shot up, etc... It's on the verge of total collapse... I'm sorry, but the country is collapsing under the weight of it's own corruption. Especially a shame because it is such a beautiful country.

Bull****. I'm saying I dont care what political beliefs people have, you dont have a right to treat them like crap because of their beliefs. If they act on those beliefs, that's another story. When you can show me a cell of Mexicans here to overthrow the US, we'll talk.

I showed you 10 videos of the beginnings of such a movement, building a movement takes time.... here, I'll throw another few up




YouTube - Cartoon predicts the future 50 years ago. This is amazing insight!
To show what's at stake.

Except in the British judgement, they were traitors. Who is right?

The founding fathers were proudly traitors to the crown... they were fighting for something bigger then themselves. It wasn't untill after they won that they were considered heroes.
 
NOBODY! It's a ****ing meaningless and subjective label that has no place in an objective discussion!

It's not a subjective label, it's a descriptive label. Obama KNOWINGLY sued Arizona over it's attempt to control illegal immigration position... THUS siding with a foreign power, illegally, over one of the states... that is a description of an act of treason. I don't know any other word that suits... and supporting this position is to support the treachery... at the very least Obama should be impeached for pursuing this, and potentially facing actual criminal charge... but that won't happen.

I am in support of whatever will do the most good for the most number of people, full stop.

Except in your short sighted attempt, and your willingness to coddle grown adults that understand the dangers of the world, is to do them a disservice. Not only does it do a disservice to those you're coddling, it's a disservice for all americans who must be burdened by this, instead of being mature gentlemen and forcing the illegal immigrants to either apply as refugees and to explain their case, or to be deported. SO, the willingness to adopt amnesty actually serves to HARM the largest number of people. That's the second time I've had to explain this... your intentions may be good, but the results are the opposite of your intention.

So shoot me.

I pray that this situation will not continue to escalate where this becomes the types of choices that americans must make against others in this country.

No, no it isnt. It never has and it never will. The world is not a binary place and it irritates me when people damage discussion on issues by trying to force it into such a position. There is more beyond yes/no black/white left/right chocolate/vanilla.

Most any other time I would agree with you... but this one is a simple choice : Do you choose the republic and it's rule of law, or do you side with the criminals? Illegal immigration IS a crime... and even if you give amnesty, you're not going to end the crime, the drug smuggling, the human trafficking, the assassinations, etc... if nothing else it will make the criminals more brazen.

People like simple, binary choices because that means (usually) that one is right, one is wrong. They want to process the information they have and make a choice for the correct answer and then put the issue down. Sorry, kid, the world doesnt work that way. It is infinitely more complex than you seem to be able to comprehend.

Except the issue of illegal immigration is more like asking if you're pregnant... you can't answer that on a scale of 1-10... and we can debate the intricacies of how to handle illegal immigration, but to say you support illegals, then you are openly supporting criminal activity... don't you get it? You might as well be supporting the thieves and fraudsters roles in society.

There are places deemed 'unsafe' in major metrocenters across the country, so what?

So, let's turn it all into slums then... so that the people living there won't be jealous.

Except we're past that stage now. We have greater understanding and more means of communication than our ancestors could dream of. We dont HAVE to fall-back on those instinctual drives, we can make more informed choices.

First our technology may have improved, but we are still humans, we will still kill over resources... and second of all, you have instincts for a reason. And when you have people that are out to "kick out the pilgrims", or "americans are the illegal immigrants", and the marches are all garnering thousands to tens of thousands of individuals... 6 of the videos I've linked so far have been separate events, in different cities... You have the instincts that if someone walks up and starts attacking you that you will defend yourself any way you can. Civilized society is just a veneer created out of abundance.

...And? Im sure American nationals kill people in other countries too, you're acting like ONLY Mexican nationals do this.

And I'm not capable of 4 dimensional thought???

OF COURSE people kill people all the time, it's a different story having someone break into someones house and kill them, regardless of any color commentary, and to go into another country armed and ready and willing to kill anyone getting in your way.

Because most people that cross the border AREN'T killing people left and right.

No, MOST are not killing anyone... but that's only because there are many crossing over... even if it's only on drug runs.

The military is not protecting the border from invasion by another military power. Use all the language you want, the vast majority of people who cross the border are trying to make money and could probably care less about politics beyond a cursory opinion.

Try to spin it all you want, but in that mass of people (who are violating our laws to start) there are violent criminals, who consider themselves mexicans, and think that it's the white people that don't belong. Even if they don't care about politics, if they view themselves as mexicans then they have no allegiance to the country. You probably don't care about concepts like allegiance either, do you?

And there are countries that shoot Jews on sight. Why do you keep bringing up things that are COMPLETELY irrelevant?

It is SO RELEVANT, I can't believe you are blind to it. Especially in your attempted earlier defense that you don't want the criminals here... but you don't care about illegals...

No, actually, I'd have a domestic initiative to train more doctors, not rely on imports.

Again with the short-sightedness, if you're needing a surge in the number of doctors and that hadn't been anticipated, then you're looking at an 8year+ wait time for them to be graduated... if we're talking a number increase beyond those that are graduating and new on the job market.

That sounds eerily like the US. I should point out that the IMF is not exactly a non-biased entity.

Agreed, both points.

Ok, the guy supports gun control, why is this an issue?

Because he should be lobbying for gun control IN HIS OWN FRIGGIN COUNTRY!!!! That's like if Obama went to the Chinese parliament and lobbied for the Chinese government to implement policy that he wants... that's SO FAR beyond the realm of what is reasonable.

Do you have ZERO concept of country??

Anyway, that's about all I can handle of this nonsense... um... you... um/... win or wahtever... I just can't believe the number of opposing view points you seem to be simultaneously holding in your mind... so, ya... Go illegal immigrants. I give up... Let's just change the name to the united states of mexico... and we can all have an el heffe walking the streets and get shakedowns for our cash... let's just scrap the constitution too... who needs freedom anyway.

Landmines.

I would only support landmines if it was done in such a way that it would not violate any human rights laws.
 
This gave me a laugh : It's going on, but it's paranoid crap if you oppose it..
It's like trying to fight a great mailman conspiracy; yes I'm sure there are mailmen who hate the world and want to destroy it but you're still paranoid for taking it seriously enough to chase it down.

have you read 'rules for radicals'??
Cant say I have.

BTW, did you read the part about how this 'integration process must be done in secret'?
Y'know, I find it harder and harder to fault governments for NOT wanting to be up-front about these kinds of projects simply because all it takes is one certifiable moron al la Alex Jones to sic their confirmation bias on something and a grand conspiracy emerges. I'd start being less inclined to share my projects in the works too if every single one was stamped CONSPIRACY by someone around me.

To collate some of the things you've said : "We shouldn't close the door", "I don't see a problem with people wanting a better life", "We shouldn't treat people like a commodity", "It's too costly to deport people or to even try and find them".
I dont see any contradictory statement there, unless you want to be extremely anal retentive and say that I didnt EXPRESSLY exclude murderers from any of those scenarios. Excuse me if I figured you were smart enough to draw that conclusion on your own.

Now you're suggesting that ANYONE that's made it across the border should be given citizenship... how are you going to check that these people don't have a criminal record?? Ask them?
I said a CHANCE at citizenship. If they have no information from their country of origin and have no personal information, assign them to a tightly restricted temporary citizenship. The second they step out of line, ship them back.

The fact is that you CANNOT provide this sort of blanket amnesty without accepting as citizens all the foreign criminals that have made it across the border. You think the criminals are going to tell you their REAL name so you can see that they are a serial rapist or whatever??
Unfortunately, that is true. However I dont see anyone suggesting we allow them to commit crimes once they arrive and since criminals make up a very low percentage of people entering the US without documentation, I'd say the risks of accidentally letting a few criminals in is worth it. It's not like we cant catch them if they commit a crime and we cant extradite them if their birth government wants them back for trial.

Again, we're relying on accurate counting of individuals who, by definition, want to avoid being counted... either way, the criminality around the border regions are on the rise and is spilling over into US territory.
So...nothing can disprove your claims that there is a FLOOD of immigrants into the US because we're "relying on accurate counting of individuals who, by definition, want to avoid being counted.

Doesn't that also mean your claim that there are millions upon millions of undocumented immigrants in the US is worthless by that same logic as well?

1 - Health care : every baby born to an "undocumented" criminal migrant is paid for by taxpayer funds ultimately. I've yet to see the tally personally, but I'm told that having a baby can cost several thousand dollars in health care.
Can you show me data supporting these billions that undocumented immigrants are supposedly draining out of our hospitals?

2 - Lowering wages : If there are throngs of illegal immigrants offering to work a job for fraction of the money that an american worker would demand, then over time it drags down the wage expectations of all americans working similar jobs since they now have to compete for those jobs at the lower wages.
Not exactly true. What having cheap labor means is that employers hire undocumented immigrants because they can pay them less without complaint. This move leaves other workers who can call in OSHA and the BBB out of a job.

Except, the blame for something like this I would say rests on the businesses hiring undocumented workers for dirt wages or hiring them because they know undocumented workers cant or wont complain if they are mistreated.

3 - Lost tax revenue : An illegal alien isn't paying taxes... I could expand on this, but enough said.
A cost made up in savings on the consumer end. Lower prices from lower cost of labor.

And this is a problem amnesty would remedy.

4 - Center for Immigration Studies 10-20 BILLION dollars goes to illegal immigrants through social programs each year...
If we assume there are about 10 million undocumented immigrants in the US and that 10 billion goes to each of them, thats roughly $1,000 a year.

I can make more than that fishing change out of fountains. Some numbers somewhere are wrong because $1,000 a year will not get you very far.

More like cause we're bigger chumps then anyone and will put up with any BS that gets sold to us.
Yeah, Emma Lazarus was SUCH a chump.

I do know that it's not the same thing... one problem with this concept in america : The US constitution was written in such a way that the large government that would be required of a socialist state is completely beyond what is constitutionally acceptable... yes, I'm sure you can find a lawyer that can twist the meanings to make it 'sound' palatable... the fact is that it's not workable within the constitution... you could use your votes to make your STATE more socialist, but not federally...
Why not? And why must we be bound by the Constitution as it was written? It is a living document that is meant to be able to change and adapt with the needs of the times. If we dont adapt it, we risk it becoming a stone around our necks rather than the guideline for a free country as it was meant to be.

If you refuse to advance, you WILL stagnate and die. I dont care if that's on a personal, professional, political, sociological, or religious level, it still holds true.

Why not move to Canada, the canadian charter is written in such a way to allow for a socialist republic... wouldn't you be happier there?
I'm not Canadian and I have no desire to go to Canada. Why cant I stay here and try to effect political change?

I criticize and try to change America because I see what it could be and I want to see it improve. America is a good place to live, but I dont think anyone would disagree with the idea that it could definitely improve. Do you not criticize your children or should a teacher not criticize their students? That criticism is done so the target of the criticism can learn what they are doing wrong and correct it.

It boggles my mind, people will argue that the US should be more like China, or other countries systems... if people hate america so much, why not expatriate yourself and take allegiance with one of those countries where the system would be more to your liking, rather then creating a situation in the country that will lead to a revolution?
Because, as the framers of the Constitution well knew, sometimes you NEED a revolution. Wasn't it Jefferson who said there should be a revolution every 20 years?

Now I personally dont think we need one, yet. I feel revolution should be to establish a democratic and open society ONLY. Socialism is a big step and shouldnt be taken by people who are unfamiliar with the idea. Socialism can then be voted in, slowly, by an educated populace. Education, not indoctrination, is key as educated people can see that unified action is the best solution to almost any problem, thus an educated population will naturally lean more towards a unified response and less towards a pig-headed and selfish idea of personal independence.

Yes, but zimbabwe could also try to mimic the US government, that wouldn't make it a first world nation...
With time, it definitely could. Look at South Africa.

Freedom IS SO INFECTIOUS that not so long ago a group of people fighting for freedom in their country went up against a team of snipers armed only with slingshots, and they fought for days before finally all being killed or captured. Freedom is SO INFECTIOUS that the during the war for independance fought against 10:1 odds. Freedom is SO INFECTIOUS that a single man was willing to face down a tank in tiananmen square JUST for the right to protest.
And that is a noble thing, I have great respect for people willing to risk everything for their right to call themselves free. But to me, a quote by Adali Stevens sums up my thoughts best, "Patriotism is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.”

Patriots and revolutionaries are not necessarily the same thing and not necessarily compatible. A revolutionaries' job is to pave the way for the patriot. Yes these two aspects can be found in some very rare men, but on the whole, the men who win the freedom are not the same people who keep it stable.
 
The problems been getting exponentially worse since we've began trading some of that freedom for the 'security' against terrorism. So, I see the importance of what the founding fathers meant of why government needs to be kept small, why the people need to be free, and the dangers that arise if we fail to keep these freedoms strong.
On the security aspect, I agree. Far more lives have been lost to far more preventable causes than terrorism so the argument for security loses some credibility with me.

However I disagree that a strong central government will inevitably lead to problems.

While, Mexico, for the most part IS a squalid cesspit... but then within that cesspit are pristine jewels. And while Mexico has had a long string of dictators, it is FAR from a free country. A quick search of google news for 'mexican protest gunned-down' gave more results then I could reasonably pick one to cite example, and contained stories of protestors getting killed afterwards in their own homes, entire protests getting shot up, etc... It's on the verge of total collapse... I'm sorry, but the country is collapsing under the weight of it's own corruption. Especially a shame because it is such a beautiful country.
Again, yes Mexico has problems with stability and law enforcement now, but we had the same problems at one point. We worked them out and here we are. Mexico's president was democratically (as democratically as you can realistically get in a free market society, dont get me wrong) elected as was much of his government.

I showed you 10 videos of the beginnings of such a movement, building a movement takes time.
Then talk to me when it becomes a movement with actual size and control. We have bigger problems at the moment.

Cartoon predicts the future 50 years ago. This is amazing insight!
To show what's at stake.
I've seen that cartoon and it's an amazingly insipid piece of propaganda.

The founding fathers were proudly traitors to the crown... they were fighting for something bigger then themselves. It wasn't untill after they won that they were considered heroes.
So you're heroes only if you win?

Except in your short sighted attempt, and your willingness to coddle grown adults that understand the dangers of the world, is to do them a disservice. Not only does it do a disservice to those you're coddling, it's a disservice for all americans who must be burdened by this, instead of being mature gentlemen and forcing the illegal immigrants to either apply as refugees and to explain their case, or to be deported. SO, the willingness to adopt amnesty actually serves to HARM the largest number of people. That's the second time I've had to explain this... your intentions may be good, but the results are the opposite of your intention.
There is a difference between coddling someone and trying to help them. Where people are concerned, I'd prefer to err a little on the side of coddling rather than risk people falling through the cracks. Maybe it's not the most economical solution, but I have to think of how I'd feel if I were in a situation and needed that kind of help.

I pray that this situation will not continue to escalate where this becomes the types of choices that americans must make against others in this country.
You're one of the few. I've had several people on this board alone openly tell me I should be shot just for being a Socialist and I've had several people threaten to kill me to my face for the same reason.

Most any other time I would agree with you... but this one is a simple choice : Do you choose the republic and it's rule of law, or do you side with the criminals?
I side with neither, I dont take sides. That's why I'm a Moderate :)

Illegal immigration IS a crime... and even if you give amnesty, you're not going to end the crime, the drug smuggling, the human trafficking, the assassinations, etc... if nothing else it will make the criminals more brazen.
I never suggested it would end drug smuggling or human trafficking.

Except the issue of illegal immigration is more like asking if you're pregnant... you can't answer that on a scale of 1-10... and we can debate the intricacies of how to handle illegal immigration, but to say you support illegals, then you are openly supporting criminal activity... don't you get it? You might as well be supporting the thieves and fraudsters roles in society.
Should people who helped runaway slaves in the Abolitionist days be considered criminals? What they did was against the law of the time.

The problem with a black/white view of things is invariably you will find something that contradicts the expected outcomes and your viewpoint bites you in the ass.

So, let's turn it all into slums then... so that the people living there won't be jealous.
Not what I said and you are well aware of that.

First our technology may have improved, but we are still humans, we will still kill over resources
Not nearly on the scale that we used to. We now have systems of trade and exchange to secure these resources WITHOUT bloodshed.

and second of all, you have instincts for a reason.
And almost all of those reasons are no longer around or a threat to us.

Civilized society is just a veneer created out of abundance.
Wrong. Civilization is a mechanism of cooperation for social creatures to work together to achieve their needs and make survival and reproduction more likely. Sounds almost Socialist, doesnt it?

And I'm not capable of 4 dimensional thought???
No, frankly, I dont think you are. At least not on political issues.

There dont seem to be any "maybe's" in your world, something is either wrong or it's right, good or bad. That kind of polar view oversimplifies everything to where you miss the big picture and start being more concerned with being right than with picking the best choice.

OF COURSE people kill people all the time, it's a different story having someone break into someones house and kill them, regardless of any color commentary, and to go into another country armed and ready and willing to kill anyone getting in your way.
Ok, are you claiming there are Mexican nationals doing this?

No, MOST are not killing anyone... but that's only because there are many crossing over... even if it's only on drug runs.
And from this you seem to think that all undocumented immigrants are drug mules. You are so determined to be right that you want to incite anger against immigrants, the majority of whom have done nothing wrong except shortcut around a broken immigration system.

Try to spin it all you want, but in that mass of people (who are violating our laws to start) there are violent criminals, who consider themselves mexicans, and think that it's the white people that don't belong. Even if they don't care about politics, if they view themselves as mexicans then they have no allegiance to the country.
And exactly how many of these individuals are there?

Because there are several hundred thousand people already here and already citizens who violate our laws and feel like ONLY white people belong. Why should I worry about the Mexicans when I have people who are already citizens who want to kill me because I have a political or religious ideology they find abhorrent?

You probably don't care about concepts like allegiance either, do you?
Allegiances are a tricky idea. Loyalty is important but its easy to let it blind you into overlooking problems in your chosen side and idealization of individuals, groups, or concepts that isn't deserved. Loyalty is like anything else in this world; too much of it is bad for you.

It is SO RELEVANT, I can't believe you are blind to it. Especially in your attempted earlier defense that you don't want the criminals here... but you don't care about illegals...
The obvious explanation being that I dont consider crossing the border without giving notice a crime serious enough to warrant deportation.

Again with the short-sightedness, if you're needing a surge in the number of doctors and that hadn't been anticipated, then you're looking at an 8year+ wait time for them to be graduated... if we're talking a number increase beyond those that are graduating and new on the job market.
Then perhaps a hybrid approach; bring in outside experts to fill the gaps while accelerating your own training programs, phasing out the outside experts and replacing them with new doctors as they become available.

Because he should be lobbying for gun control IN HIS OWN FRIGGIN COUNTRY!!!! That's like if Obama went to the Chinese parliament and lobbied for the Chinese government to implement policy that he wants... that's SO FAR beyond the realm of what is reasonable.
Its perfectly reasonable. Do you think it was unreasonable of Reagan to go to West Berlin and demand that the USSR destroy the Berlin wall? Was it unreasonable of the US and the rest of the world to demand that South Africa end Apartheid?

Asking other countries to make changes that you see as positive is not unreasonable nor is it unprecedented.

Do you have ZERO concept of country??
I hold to an idea so long as it withstands rational, logical, or empirical scrutiny. If that idea falls short in such a way that two or more areas can no longer support it, it must be set aside. If choices need to be made that disregard the concept of country but will benefit a great many people, then I am willing to make them.

Anyway, that's about all I can handle of this nonsense... um... you... um/... win or wahtever... I just can't believe the number of opposing view points you seem to be simultaneously holding in your mind... so, ya... Go illegal immigrants. I give up... Let's just change the name to the united states of mexico... and we can all have an el heffe walking the streets and get shakedowns for our cash... let's just scrap the constitution too... who needs freedom anyway.
In future, you could try to avoid falling into the trap of a confirmation bias.
 
It's like trying to fight a great mailman conspiracy; yes I'm sure there are mailmen who hate the world and want to destroy it but you're still paranoid for taking it seriously enough to chase it down.

Ok, an INDIVIDUAL might pull out a gun and start shooting people, or strap a bomb to their chest... which I'm happy to say is exceptionally rare in our society.... that is always tragic, but is limited in scope... what a nation or a race can generate is for all intents and purposes a war... and if americans weren't so well armed in general, it would be a massacre.


Cant say I have.

Well, you employ it's strategies quite well...

Y'know, I find it harder and harder to fault governments for NOT wanting to be up-front about these kinds of projects simply because all it takes is one certifiable moron al la Alex Jones to sic their confirmation bias on something and a grand conspiracy emerges. I'd start being less inclined to share my projects in the works too if every single one was stamped CONSPIRACY by someone around me.

So, you haven't read the documents then... I haven't fully read through it either... but I've skimmed through some of the good parts at least, and the reason it's secret is because if they came out and called it what it was : a corporate / global merger of the three nations which would supercede the laws of each member nation. They have to keep it secret cause they intend to use things like the border crisis to push for further integration of the three nations.

I dont see any contradictory statement there, unless you want to be extremely anal retentive and say that I didnt EXPRESSLY exclude murderers from any of those scenarios. Excuse me if I figured you were smart enough to draw that conclusion on your own.

The contradiction is in your short sighted approach of the matter. You simultaneously believe that we cannot deport people so we should give them the benefit of citizenship and the benefits that come with that... but somehow think this is for the greater good of america to be that inclusive when you will no doubt be accepting a good number of legitimate dangerous criminals that have 'escaped' mexico...

I said a CHANCE at citizenship. If they have no information from their country of origin and have no personal information, assign them to a tightly restricted temporary citizenship. The second they step out of line, ship them back.

Haha... but then every country they claim you attempt to ship them to and are refused, since you gave them citizenship they become your problem... how much beaurcoratic paperwork would that represent?? How does that fit in your 'cost-benefit analysis'?

Unfortunately, that is true. However I dont see anyone suggesting we allow them to commit crimes once they arrive and since criminals make up a very low percentage of people entering the US without documentation, I'd say the risks of accidentally letting a few criminals in is worth it. It's not like we cant catch them if they commit a crime and we cant extradite them if their birth government wants them back for trial.

Ok, but you have yet to provide any benefit that these immigrants bring to the country beyond low wages and the businesses that hire these illegals bottom lines??

So, in other words, they are an economic drain, some of them are gangsters and criminals are bound to slip in... so HOW is it worth it? In what way is it 'worth it"???

See, but they are committing the first crime by crossing the border illegally... how many 'strikes' should they get before we arrest them and deport them??

So...nothing can disprove your claims that there is a FLOOD of immigrants into the US because we're "relying on accurate counting of individuals who, by definition, want to avoid being counted.

The fact that I showed 4 newsclips demonstrating the type of danger??? One of them saying that even the cops wouldn't help the reporter through certain areas because of the cartels IN AMERICA!!! And all the other criminality... even within view of the cities these people just cross brazenly... I'm still dumbfounded at how this is g


Not exactly true. What having cheap labor means is that employers hire undocumented immigrants because they can pay them less without complaint. This move leaves other workers who can call in OSHA and the BBB out of a job.

Except, the blame for something like this I would say rests on the businesses hiring undocumented workers for dirt wages or hiring them because they know undocumented workers cant or wont complain if they are mistreated.

Yes, that's why I EQUALLY support massive fines on ANY company PER illegal. Plus paying taxes on the money they SHOULD have paid their employees... so, now the argument is that it's for the greater good to bring these people so they can't complain when we mistreat them?

A cost made up in savings on the consumer end. Lower prices from lower cost of labor.

That is SO FAR from the truth it's not even funny. When the iPhones first came out it was around 600$ for the phone, in the company each phone costs about 40$ in material and labour... + transcontinental shipping / unit... let's say 100$ / unit, and it's completely acceptable that they maintain a 500% conservative premium??

If it's so good for these people, why have they been reporting building nets around the factories to dissuade suicide jumpers??

And this is a problem amnesty would remedy.

NO... that's to a 'remedy' what bailing out a leaky boat is a 'remedy'... it's not because it leaves the borders wide open.


Seriously, stop reading karl marx and che guevera and actually read the constitution. Then read a history book and find out WHY they wrote it the way they wrote it.

And why must we be bound by the Constitution as it was written?

Because that is the supreme law of the land... it's what the 10 commandments is to the bible. If we stop living by those guidelines, even when times get tough then the system of laws truly was a facade to begin...

It is a living document that is meant to be able to change and adapt with the needs of the times. If we dont adapt it, we risk it becoming a stone around our necks rather than the guideline for a free country as it was meant to be.

What you are discussing is finding legal loopholes to completely abolish constitutional rights... so, yes, in a sense it's still a living document, but it's on life support.

If you refuse to advance, you WILL stagnate and die. I dont care if that's on a personal, professional, political, sociological, or religious level, it still holds true.

Yes, we can ADVANCE freedom... instead of advancing a government with free-reign to control your entire life.

I criticize and try to change America because I see what it could be and I want to see it improve. America is a good place to live, but I dont think anyone would disagree with the idea that it could definitely improve. Do you not criticize your children or should a teacher not criticize their students? That criticism is done so the target of the criticism can learn what they are doing wrong and correct it.

What you think of as a modest change of pain color is equivalent of converting city blocks into prison blocks... but it's always nice and caring sounding "oh those cops are on the street for your protection, if you are seen walking without your freedom number you will be shot. This is for your protection."

Because, as the framers of the Constitution well knew, sometimes you NEED a revolution. Wasn't it Jefferson who said there should be a revolution every 20 years?

Yes, he imagined it would be alot quicker for the people to catch onto political corruption... and to route out the corrupt individuals. Now, in this day and age, the only type of revolution in america will be a local revolution. More and more the needs of the governmnet will completely disconnect with the will of the people. For example : The end of the war now means that soldiers are replaced by mercenaries.

Now I personally dont think we need one, yet. I feel revolution should be to establish a democratic and open society ONLY. Socialism is a big step and shouldnt be taken by people who are unfamiliar with the idea. Socialism can then be voted in, slowly, by an educated populace. Education, not indoctrination, is key as educated people can see that unified action is the best solution to almost any problem, thus an educated population will naturally lean more towards a unified response and less towards a pig-headed and selfish idea of personal independence.

Now, if that's truly your belief and approach, then yes, you could completely as a local unit vote in a localised brand of socialism with powers strictly designated... the problem is that it is the federal government which is attempted to trump the states of their rights.
 
On the security aspect, I agree. Far more lives have been lost to far more preventable causes than terrorism so the argument for security loses some credibility with me.

However I disagree that a strong central government will inevitably lead to problems.

Point 1 historical example. I can think off the top of my head at least 5 strong central governments that have had some major problems within the past 100 years.... that's killed somewhere between 100-250million people.

Look, if you had some AI super-computer that was doing the delegating, that couldn't allow emotions to surpass it's intellect... then MAYBE you could have a strong central government that wouldn't get greedy and corrupt and then start to view the population as little more then 'rabble rousers' or something and just stop providing them food, or water, tax the people into submission, or sometimes just sending the army to start killing people. The problem is that when you have total power, you'll eventually grow to become totally corrupt, even if it requires several generations... the historical fact is that once a government becomes centralized it grows exponentially more corrupt.

Then talk to me when it becomes a movement with actual size and control. We have bigger problems at the moment.

Yes, impeaching Obama for his criminal behavior as president on this matter.

So you're heroes only if you win?

History IS written by the survivors.

There is a difference between coddling someone and trying to help them. Where people are concerned, I'd prefer to err a little on the side of coddling rather than risk people falling through the cracks. Maybe it's not the most economical solution, but I have to think of how I'd feel if I were in a situation and needed that kind of help.

Yes, I feel for them, I really do... the problem is that we'd have fewer illegal immigrants if we properly patrolled the borders and / or did a better job of completing the fence, or at least enough of the fence that the remainder can be patrolled, prosecuting businesses that violate the law, etc... a multi-faceted problem requires a multi-pronged solution most of the time... or solutions that solve the other problems.

You're one of the few. I've had several people on this board alone openly tell me I should be shot just for being a Socialist and I've had several people threaten to kill me to my face for the same reason.

Look, I don't want to shoot anyone... but you gotta understand the true implications of what you are proposing... and instead of wishing for the way you want it, truly examine where the government is taking us with a true historical understanding of the precedences and implications. When you realize what's at stake, you'll understand why some would be willing to make threats...

I side with neither, I dont take sides. That's why I'm a Moderate :)

Unfortunately by NOT choosing a side, the side chosen FOR you is by default support of criminality.

I never suggested it would end drug smuggling or human trafficking.

In that case, why do we need blanket amnesty ?

Should people who helped runaway slaves in the Abolitionist days be considered criminals? What they did was against the law of the time.

Since the prevailing view was that this illegal law was not illegal, and so, they would at least be treated as criminals. That's one area where we as people have better grasped the concepts of legal laws... in some ways, in others, we now :
- have illegal printing of money (should be done by congress)
- illegal wars (haven't had a declaration of war in a generation.
- illegal spying through various means
- etc

Not what I said and you are well aware of that.

That's why I call your views short-sighted so many times.

Not nearly on the scale that we used to. We now have systems of trade and exchange to secure these resources WITHOUT bloodshed.

The military has become a much more efficient killing machine, and there are many more layers of 'cleaning' war information goes through, so it's difficult to know accurate numbers killed.

And almost all of those reasons are no longer around or a threat to us.

You can't escape instincts... and yes, there are threats... they are much less common, but that does not mean they are not there... I'm not saying that you are to be on edge, but you have instincts none the less.

Wrong. Civilization is a mechanism of cooperation for social creatures to work together to achieve their needs and make survival and reproduction more likely. Sounds almost Socialist, doesnt it?

Yes, and when there's a 'lack' of resources, that 'socialism' will be more like bands of gangs fighting for the scraps of food that remain.

No, frankly, I dont think you are. At least not on political issues.

There dont seem to be any "maybe's" in your world, something is either wrong or it's right, good or bad. That kind of polar view oversimplifies everything to where you miss the big picture and start being more concerned with being right than with picking the best choice.

You have yet to provide any actual BENEFITS to this 'amnesty', usually for something to be 'benficial' there has to be some sort of 'benefit'.,.. and so far the only 'benefits' I see are going to those that fled mexico either because they are fed up or are criminals.

I asked for a cost-benefit view earlier, you listed a group of costs...

You are defending the benefits of defying the laws of the land... and fail to see the implications of implicitly accepting criminality in any form.

Ok, are you claiming there are Mexican nationals doing this?

If they are Mexican nationals when they cross the border they remain so unless they find a way to become citizens... like lobbying for amnesty.

And from this you seem to think that all undocumented immigrants are drug mules. You are so determined to be right that you want to incite anger against immigrants, the majority of whom have done nothing wrong except shortcut around a broken immigration system.

No, I'm NOT advocating violence against these immigrants... though I will advocate strongly for any individuals right to self-defense. Yes, many people 'don't do anything wrong but evade taxes' and still end up in jail. To do nothing is a silent encouragement.

Because there are several hundred thousand people already here and already citizens who violate our laws and feel like ONLY white people belong. Why should I worry about the Mexicans when I have people who are already citizens who want to kill me because I have a political or religious ideology they find abhorrent?
Precisely, why encourage more??

The obvious explanation being that I dont consider crossing the border without giving notice a crime serious enough to warrant deportation.

That's tantamount to saying that having a flu isn't enough to warrant treatment... the LONG-view of this is that by doing nothing, sooner or later you'll wake up to find a large portion of map renamed 'mexico'.

Its perfectly reasonable. Do you think it was unreasonable of Reagan to go to West Berlin and demand that the USSR destroy the Berlin wall? Was it unreasonable of the US and the rest of the world to demand that South Africa end Apartheid?

Asking other countries to make changes that you see as positive is not unreasonable nor is it unprecedented.

To make your analogy proper would be like having South Africa demand other countries BEGIN apartheids of their own.

I hold to an idea so long as it withstands rational, logical, or empirical scrutiny. If that idea falls short in such a way that two or more areas can no longer support it, it must be set aside. If choices need to be made that disregard the concept of country but will benefit a great many people, then I am willing to make them.

It's like being sold a candy coated poison.
 
Ok, an INDIVIDUAL might pull out a gun and start shooting people, or strap a bomb to their chest... which I'm happy to say is exceptionally rare in our society.... that is always tragic, but is limited in scope... what a nation or a race can generate is for all intents and purposes a war... and if americans weren't so well armed in general, it would be a massacre.
I'm confused as to what your point is here.

So, you haven't read the documents then... I haven't fully read through it either... but I've skimmed through some of the good parts at least, and the reason it's secret is because if they came out and called it what it was : a corporate / global merger of the three nations which would supercede the laws of each member nation. They have to keep it secret cause they intend to use things like the border crisis to push for further integration of the three nations.
No, I just dont have 40 free hours to fritter away sifting through documents that say what we already know.

You dont think similar talks went down when the EU or the US in general were formed? It's the normal process of political evolution. Why are you blowing a gasket over it?

The contradiction is in your short sighted approach of the matter. You simultaneously believe that we cannot deport people so we should give them the benefit of citizenship and the benefits that come with that... but somehow think this is for the greater good of america to be that inclusive when you will no doubt be accepting a good number of legitimate dangerous criminals that have 'escaped' mexico...
Im saying the benefits outweigh the costs and risks for amnesty. I understand and accept that yes we may accidentally help some criminals evade their country of origin's law enforcement.

There's several outcomes that can have.

One, they come here, get citizenship, settle down, and live a law abiding life here. Not the most likely outcome but still possible. If that happens, we get a law abiding citizen until they do something to tip off their COO's law enforcement and we fork them over, or their COO's law enforcement never finds out and he pays taxes until the day he dies. Either way, not a catastrophe.

Two, they come here, get citizenship (if they make it past the probationary period with a clean record), commit a crime, and get punished for it.

I'm not getting what's so difficult about this. To me, the possibility of letting a handful of criminals in is outweighed by helping hundreds of thousands of NON-criminals get a shot at a decent TAX PAYING life here in the US.

Haha... but then every country they claim you attempt to ship them to and are refused, since you gave them citizenship they become your problem... how much beaurcoratic paperwork would that represent?? How does that fit in your 'cost-benefit analysis'?
Then we put them through the American justice system like any other criminal.

[wuote]Ok, but you have yet to provide any benefit that these immigrants bring to the country beyond low wages and the businesses that hire these illegals bottom lines??[/quote] As undocumented citizens or under an amnesty?

See, but they are committing the first crime by crossing the border illegally... how many 'strikes' should they get before we arrest them and deport them??
Do we kick a Polish Jew out for sneaking into the US without papers? No, we understand that a law was broken for a greater good. It's something we seem to be able to comprehend with Cuban immigrants that wash up on our shores, why can we not apply it to other countries?

The fact that I showed 4 newsclips demonstrating the type of danger??? One of them saying that even the cops wouldn't help the reporter through certain areas because of the cartels IN AMERICA!!! And all the other criminality... even within view of the cities these people just cross brazenly... I'm still dumbfounded at how this is g
Then it's a domestic law enforcement issue completely divorced from the immigration issue as cartel members can still legally immigrate to the US or obtain work/visitors visas.

Yes, that's why I EQUALLY support massive fines on ANY company PER illegal. Plus paying taxes on the money they SHOULD have paid their employees... so, now the argument is that it's for the greater good to bring these people so they can't complain when we mistreat them?
A splendid idea that will NEVER happen. We have to look at the political realities and the reality is NO political figure would EVER in his right mind back this kind of law. It'd die a swift death in committee for fear of losing funding from the big business whose accountants get their rocks off on the money saved by hiring undocumented workers.

No politician with any clout would support this and you will NEVER achieve the kind of support necessary for a national law.

That is SO FAR from the truth it's not even funny. When the iPhones first came out it was around 600$ for the phone, in the company each phone costs about 40$ in material and labour... + transcontinental shipping / unit... let's say 100$ / unit, and it's completely acceptable that they maintain a 500% conservative premium??
Cost of manufacture for an iPhone is $174.33 which, with everything else tabulated means about a 50% profit
Final Cost to Manufacture the iPhone – $174.33 | andPOP

If it's so good for these people, why have they been reporting building nets around the factories to dissuade suicide jumpers??
Proof?

NO... that's to a 'remedy' what bailing out a leaky boat is a 'remedy'... it's not because it leaves the borders wide open.
You are so set against amnesty you keep pushing problems that wouldn't BE problems if we adopted amnesty.

Because that is the supreme law of the land... it's what the 10 commandments is to the bible. If we stop living by those guidelines, even when times get tough then the system of laws truly was a facade to begin...
Spare me the 6th grade Social Studies rhetoric. The Constitution is, at the end of the day, a piece of paper with rules on it that we've decided to follow. Those rules are only sacred because we MAKE them sacred. Clinging to them because "its what our fathers did" is an appeal to tradition and a path that can lead to stagnation if you aren't careful.

The only thing that separates the Constitution from a Monopoly ruleset is a couple hundred years and some pronouns. They are both a set of rules for organizing a system for what we feel are maximum positive benefit. We can change them, break them, re-write them, and reform them if we want. We just need the courage to do and and to get this idiotic notion out of our heads that they're some kind of religious document.

Take a look at the Catholic Church if you want an example of what happens to an institution that wont change with the times.

What you are discussing is finding legal loopholes to completely abolish constitutional rights... so, yes, in a sense it's still a living document, but it's on life support.
The mechanisms to change the Constitution were written IN to the Constitution, so logically that means the writers thought we would probably want to change it at some point.

Yes, we can ADVANCE freedom... instead of advancing a government with free-reign to control your entire life.
Stop with the rhetoric, christ on crutches I'm ready to gag with all this "freedom" and "liberty" crap that people keep trotting out like a favorite toy when they really have NO idea what it means and care even less.

You have such a subjective reaction to the word you cant even examine it logically. How do you "advance" freedom? You're already free, what more is there than free? Do you want total freedom, Anarchy? No, of course you dont. Most people who say they want Anarchy dont even want Anarchy. You want stability, order, and protection; all of which require a system in place and systems are governed by rules.
 
Yes, he imagined it would be alot quicker for the people to catch onto political corruption... and to route out the corrupt individuals. Now, in this day and age, the only type of revolution in america will be a local revolution. More and more the needs of the governmnet will completely disconnect with the will of the people. For example : The end of the war now means that soldiers are replaced by mercenaries.
This is where I tend to think the average voter could be replaced by my cat on voting day and the results would be exactly the same. People LOVE to bitch and complain about where they see government going wrong (ignoring for a moment that, no, not everyone can be as perfect as they are) but they dont give a second thought to everything the government does right.

You have access to clean water, safe food, electricity, houses built so they wont fall over, police to protect you, firemen, roads, a mail system, telecommunications and so much more because of the work that government does that no one notices. Humans ALWAYS fixate on the problems.

Now, if that's truly your belief and approach, then yes, you could completely as a local unit vote in a localised brand of socialism with powers strictly designated... the problem is that it is the federal government which is attempted to trump the states of their rights.
And, frankly, I think it SHOULD trump state's rights. I think the IDEA of states being virtually autonomous is stupid. The energy wasted on states and feds squabbling alone could probably solve half our problems.

Point 1 historical example. I can think off the top of my head at least 5 strong central governments that have had some major problems within the past 100 years.... that's killed somewhere between 100-250million people.
I guarantee you far more people have been killed by LACK of government than it's presence.

Look, if you had some AI super-computer that was doing the delegating, that couldn't allow emotions to surpass it's intellect... then MAYBE you could have a strong central government that wouldn't get greedy and corrupt and then start to view the population as little more then 'rabble rousers' or something and just stop providing them food, or water, tax the people into submission, or sometimes just sending the army to start killing people. The problem is that when you have total power, you'll eventually grow to become totally corrupt, even if it requires several generations... the historical fact is that once a government becomes centralized it grows exponentially more corrupt.
Ironically enough, that's a plan I've advanced for years.

Corruption is not an absolute. The fact that it's variable behavior that increases or decreases due to conditions tells us that there is a way to reduce it to a negligible level or possibly even eliminate it, we simply haven't found an acceptable way outside of brutal force against those engaging in it.

History IS written by the survivors.
So....the definition of a hero changes based on who does the defining, ergo the label is subjective.

So I can say that being a hero means nothing, and you can disagree. But in the totality, it doesnt matter because the idea is subjective; I'm no more right than you are BECAUSE THE IDEA IS SUBJECTIVE.

Yes, I feel for them, I really do... the problem is that we'd have fewer illegal immigrants if we properly patrolled the borders and / or did a better job of completing the fence, or at least enough of the fence that the remainder can be patrolled, prosecuting businesses that violate the law, etc
By the strictest possible definitions, you are right. However you dont seem to be getting that a very small amount of the problem comes from people crossing the border and that there are A LOT more ways to get in than a desert hike and a quick swim. While, yes, your ideas would technically reduce immigration, I dont see that they would justify the COST or savings.

Even if you stem the tide, it doesnt stop the problem. It's like trying to slow the leak in a submarine stuck on the bottom of the ocean with no power; yeah you might be able to slow down the process of the entire thing filling with water but the thing WILL fill with water.

Look, I don't want to shoot anyone... but you gotta understand the true implications of what you are proposing... and instead of wishing for the way you want it, truly examine where the government is taking us with a true historical understanding of the precedences and implications. When you realize what's at stake, you'll understand why some would be willing to make threats...
To hell with them. If I ran scared every time I thought my views would upset people, I'd probably be on enough medications to be crapping penicillin. If someone wants to get irrational and shoot me, it's not enough to scare me away from trying to change things.

What I'm proposing scares a lot of people and...I really dont care. I'm pursuing this course and will continue to do so as long as every faculty I have tells me that it's the best one I can possibly choose. As soon as I have reason to suspect another heading is better, I'll be there. Sometimes the things that help us also scare the hell out of us.

Unfortunately by NOT choosing a side, the side chosen FOR you is by default support of criminality.
Only to someone with an overly-binary view of the world.

In that case, why do we need blanket amnesty ?
It makes people that are currently making money that gets sent out of the country into tax paying citizens and it allows us to stabilize our jobs to workers ratio. If we have a good employment rate, we do more to slow down undocumented immigration than twenty fences.

Since the prevailing view was that this illegal law was not illegal, and so, they would at least be treated as criminals. That's one area where we as people have better grasped the concepts of legal laws... in some ways, in others, we now :
- have illegal printing of money (should be done by congress)
- illegal wars (haven't had a declaration of war in a generation.
- illegal spying through various means
- etc
So do you think that mercy should be a component of law? Or do you view the law as a machine, doing it's job with no thought to it's input or output?

That's why I call your views short-sighted so many times.
Because you make my words mean something OTHER than what I said? Im sensing a logic fault on your end.

The military has become a much more efficient killing machine, and there are many more layers of 'cleaning' war information goes through, so it's difficult to know accurate numbers killed.
We've lost over 5,000 people in almost ten years of fighting in Iraq. In ages past, 5,000 men would die in the first ten minutes of a single battle. I'd say we've grown past the stage of needing to kill each other to get what we need.

You can't escape instincts... and yes, there are threats... they are much less common, but that does not mean they are not there... I'm not saying that you are to be on edge, but you have instincts none the less.
Some instincts, yes you can. For instance, my INSTINCT would be to kill everyone that disagrees with me because you disrupt the social fabric that I see as ideal and you threaten my ideal view of society. In our hairer days, the view of society was formed by the viewpoint that had the most supporters because they beat down opposition.

I'd say we've moved past that stage. We CAN bypass some of our instincts, especially one's tied into something as flexible as society.

Yes, and when there's a 'lack' of resources, that 'socialism' will be more like bands of gangs fighting for the scraps of food that remain.
You seem to be thinking of Anarchy.

You are defending the benefits of defying the laws of the land... and fail to see the implications of implicitly accepting criminality in any form.
Does defending an idea make me a criminal? That's rather dictatorial, to say that my mere thoughts could be a crime.

If they are Mexican nationals when they cross the border they remain so unless they find a way to become citizens... like lobbying for amnesty.
We're not talking about a change of venue, you SEEM to be claiming there are all these Mexican nationals who jumped the border just to cut a bitch and haven't really shown me anything beyond a handful of idiots.

No, I'm NOT advocating violence against these immigrants... though I will advocate strongly for any individuals right to self-defense. Yes, many people 'don't do anything wrong but evade taxes' and still end up in jail. To do nothing is a silent encouragement.
To do nothing is exactly that; to do nothing. "Silence gives consent" is an idiotic idea that leads to McCarthy style paranoid fugues. You haven't said anything against making jerky out of dead babies and you aren't doing anything to stop it, should I construe that that means you approve of it?

Precisely, why encourage more??
Ok, pay attention, I WILL make you repeat my class.

There are already large groups of WHITE people here in the US who are legal citizens who want to kill ME because of my political views. Why should THEY take a backseat to MAYBE a couple hundred undocumented immigrants who want to do the same thing?

That's tantamount to saying that having a flu isn't enough to warrant treatment... the LONG-view of this is that by doing nothing, sooner or later you'll wake up to find a large portion of map renamed 'mexico'.
Actually it's tantamount to my saying "you are paranoid".

To make your analogy proper would be like having South Africa demand other countries BEGIN apartheids of their own.
Large numbers of white South Africans DID expect the rest of the world to follow suit.

It's like being sold a candy coated poison.
No, it's called critical thinking. If you still want to use that label, be my guest.
 
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