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Militarizing the Border

Hoplite

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This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?
 

Diogenes

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To keep out the drugs, gangs, and terrorists?

Not everyone crossing the border is simply looking for a job or a better life.
 
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Hoplite

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Is there an indication that drugs, gangs, and terrorists get into the US principally through the border?

The 9/11 hijackers all had visas and even though our border situation is supposed to be "deplorable" now, there is no indication of any terrorists crossing the border.

Besides, the Canadian border is MUCH better for crossing than the Southern border; it's more open and in a lot of places isnt even marked.

The "protect our borders from terrorist" is BS
 

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This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?
Two things.

The First:
While we do have a Posse Comitatus law, that does not mean we can't militarize the border. We could militarize the border with the National Guard, which is organized state militia. Basically, we'd be using "state militaries" rather than the federal military, as the Posse Comitatus law applies to the U.S. Armed forces but not the National Guard.

The Second:
There are many reasons for the drive to militarize the border. For some, they believe it to be a cure-all for the state of America's ills on social, political, and economic levels.

However, there are some very valid reasons. The biggest one I know of is to drug violence that's overflowing from Mexico. Locking down the borders will help prevent Mexican gangbangers and assassins from coming over the border.

Unfortunately, that won't work either. All that will happen is that (instead of Mexican cartels sending hitmen across the border like they do now) Mexican cartels will make alliances with domestic American gangs to do their dirty work across the border. While the physical border will be closed down, communications won't, so if someone needs to rubbed out the cartels can just phone a native gangbanger to do the job for them.

Basically, militarizing the border will do is keep the more benign of the illegal immigrants from coming over and will make the cartels have to adapt in order to continue their criminal enterprises.
 

jamesrage

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This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.
I am sure most people would not have a problem with part of a law meant to appease whiny southerners who lost the civil war was amended to allow the border to be militarized.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.
Then there is other half that doesn't get in with Visas as well as the as the gangs smugglers and other people to worry about.As for the Visa overstays cut the countries off we have the most problems with, **** them.As my drill sergeants used to say it takes one of you to **** things up for the rest of you all, or in the case of illegals its takes millions to **** things up for everybody else in their country.
 

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I am sure most people would not have a problem with part of a law meant to appease whiny southerners who lost the civil war was amended to allow the border to be militarized.


Then there is other half that doesn't get in with Visas as well as the as the gangs smugglers and other people to worry about.As for the Visa overstays cut the countries off we have the most problems with, **** them.As my drill sergeants used to say it takes one of you to **** things up for the rest of you all, or in the case of illegals its takes millions to **** things up for everybody else in their country.
Get rid of enough marxist amnesty democratic politicians in Congress in Nov and the Posse Comitatus law could at least be amended to allow the US to use the NG to defend it's borders from unwanted uninvited illegal border jumpers as well as drug dealers. Armed patrolling NG would be one hell of a deterrent to keep the illegal hordes out. With the hordes no longer breaking in the border patrol could much more easily contentrate on those few illegals breaking in that wish to do harm to the US. This would be in the interest of the national security.
 
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ReverendHellh0und

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This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?



If this is your argument, then the fedgov has no standing to sue AZ.
 

Demon of Light

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I'm pretty liberal on the matter of immigration, but I still thinking having a well-guarded border with a fence is a nice idea. We can't just let anyone hop the border any time they feel like it. Why make it easy?
 

Hoplite

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I am sure most people would not have a problem with part of a law meant to appease whiny southerners who lost the civil war was amended to allow the border to be militarized.
I realize no one has really been protesting JSOC, but that doesnt mean it doesnt violate the law. Unless the act is repealed, you cannot legally militarize the border with the Army, Navy, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service. You cant just ignore the law when you dont like it.

The rest of your post is basically ranting.
 

jamesrage

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I realize no one has really been protesting JSOC, but that doesnt mean it doesnt violate the law. Unless the act is repealed, you cannot legally militarize the border with the Army, Navy, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service. You cant just ignore the law when you dont like it.

The rest of your post is basically ranting.
I am saying repeal or amend the law, I never said ignore it
 

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This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?
Didn't know there was a meaningful drive to militarize the border. That's not the answer.

Everybody but Washington knows the answer. Enforce existing laws making it illegal to hire illegals. Send a loud-and-clear message to companies that they will pay dearly if they're found to have illegals working for them. Dearly. If they knew or, more importantly, SHOULD have known. Don't fall for jackpot babies. Change the law. We know these things. It's not rocket science.

As to the drug gangs, cut off the money. Let the FBI do what the FBI does with organized crime.
 

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This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.
Unless requested to do so by the State Governor and those requests have been made and ignored.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.
They're generally not the ones we're worried about we're not especially worried about the ones who come here to work we're concerned with things like the outright annexation by Mexican drug funded paramilitary of large swaths of U.S. territory.
 
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Hoplite

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Didn't know there was a meaningful drive to militarize the border. That's not the answer.

Everybody but Washington knows the answer. Enforce existing laws making it illegal to hire illegals. Send a loud-and-clear message to companies that they will pay dearly if they're found to have illegals working for them. Dearly. If they knew or, more importantly, SHOULD have known. Don't fall for jackpot babies. Change the law. We know these things. It's not rocket science.
That's rather anti-capitalist of you. Shouldn't a company be allowed to hire whoever it wants?

As to the drug gangs, cut off the money. Let the FBI do what the FBI does with organized crime.
Except the FBI doesnt have jurisdiction in Latin America.

Unless requested to do so by the State Governor and those requests have been made and ignored.
No such provision exists in the posse comitatus act

They're generally not the ones we're worried about we're not especially worried about the ones who come here to work we're concerned with things like the outright annexation by Mexican drug funded paramilitary of large swaths of U.S. territory.
Ok, do you have any proof of this or is this just rhetoric?

I am saying repeal or amend the law, I never said ignore it
What you said sounded very much like "We dont need this law, let's ignore it." And I am not in favor of repealing the posse comitatus act. There's a reason that rule started with Ancient Rome, it's to keep the armed forces from being used domestically to threaten the populace. Additionally, soldiers are not police and shouldnt be trying to do a cop's job.
 
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Agent Ferris

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No such provision exists in the posse comitatus act.
Yes they do, the State Governor can request the use of Federal Troops in the form of the National Guard.

The limitation also does not apply to the National Guard when activated by a state's governor and operating in accordance with Title 32 of the U.S. Code (for example, National Guardsmen were used extensively by state governors during Hurricane Katrina response actions). Conversely, the limitation would apply to the National Guard when activated by the President and operating in accordance with Title 10 and Title 32 of the U.S. Code.

Posse comitatus (common law) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TITLE 32 > CHAPTER 9 > § 907
907. Relationship to State duty
Nothing in this chapter shall be construed as a limitation on the authority of any unit of the National Guard of a State, when such unit is not in Federal service, to perform functions authorized to be performed by the National Guard by the laws of the State concerned.

United States Code: Title 32,CHAPTER 9—HOMELAND DEFENSE ACTIVITIES | LII / Legal Information Institute
 

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That's rather anti-capitalist of you. Shouldn't a company be allowed to hire whoever it wants?

It's against Federal law. Just because the Feds don't do a good job of enforcing it, doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Except the FBI doesnt have jurisdiction in Latin America.

Sorry??? It isn't peso's coming HERE that are the problem, is it? It's dollars going THERE.
----------
 

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That's rather anti-capitalist of you. Shouldn't a company be allowed to hire whoever it wants?


Except the FBI doesnt have jurisdiction in Latin America.

No such provision exists in the posse comitatus act

Ok, do you have any proof of this or is this just rhetoric?


What you said sounded very much like "We dont need this law, let's ignore it." And I am not in favor of repealing the posse comitatus act. There's a reason that rule started with Ancient Rome, it's to keep the armed forces from being used domestically to threaten the populace. Additionally, soldiers are not police and shouldnt be trying to do a cop's job.
a company should be able to hire anyone it wants "LEGALLY" and if it is found to be habitually ilegally hiring non usa citizens then their license to opperate should be pulled. imo.
 

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What you said sounded very much like "We dont need this law, let's ignore it." And I am not in favor of repealing the posse comitatus act.
Yeah we don't need it or at least the part that applies to the border so lets repeal it.
There's a reason that rule started with Ancient Rome, it's to keep the armed forces from being used domestically to threaten the populace.
Ancient Rome didn't have **** to do with that being enacted in the US. It was enacted to appease whiny crybaby Southerners who lost the civil war.

Additionally, soldiers are not police and shouldnt be trying to do a cop's job.
A border is the first defense against neighboring countries. Therefore border security is a military job and therefore should be handled by the military.
 

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I realize no one has really been protesting JSOC, but that doesnt mean it doesnt violate the law. Unless the act is repealed, you cannot legally militarize the border with the Army, Navy, Air Force, and State National Guard forces when such are called into federal service. You cant just ignore the law when you dont like it.

The rest of your post is basically ranting.
So I agree we can't ignore laws because we don't like it. For those that support illegal immigration, its against Federal law. AZ gets taken to court for passing law targeting employers of illegals, AZ gets taken to court for passing a law to allow local LE to enforce federal law regarding illegals in the US. So why does the Feds get a free pass for not enforcing existing immigration laws. Seems if the Feds can ignore illegals, they can put the military on the borders.
 

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Yes they do, the State Governor can request the use of Federal Troops in the form of the National Guard.
IIRC, thats only for states of emergency and in response to natural disasters, not to handle everyday situations of law enforcement.

It's against Federal law. Just because the Feds don't do a good job of enforcing it, doesn't mean it doesn't work.
It shouldnt be the Federal government's job to enforce laws against hiring people without the proper paperwork.

Sorry??? It isn't peso's coming HERE that are the problem, is it? It's dollars going THERE.
Ok, so what is the FBI supposed to do about it?

a company should be able to hire anyone it wants "LEGALLY" and if it is found to be habitually ilegally hiring non usa citizens then their license to opperate should be pulled. imo.
And in theory, that's how it works.

Yeah we don't need it or at least the part that applies to the border so lets repeal it.
I am uncomfortable with the armed forces being able to be deployed as a police force. That is not what they are trained to do, it is not what they are equipped to do.

Ancient Rome didn't have **** to do with that being enacted in the US. It was enacted to appease whiny crybaby Southerners who lost the civil war.
Look up the history of the law. Its one that stretches back to Rome and it's job was to keep armies out of the city to prevent a coup backed by the military. I dont see a reason to repeal the law.

A border is the first defense against neighboring countries. Therefore border security is a military job and therefore should be handled by the military.
And tell me, what exactly do we need to worry about from Canada or Mexico? Undocumented immigration is not a significant threat.

So I agree we can't ignore laws because we don't like it. For those that support illegal immigration, its against Federal law. AZ gets taken to court for passing law targeting employers of illegals, AZ gets taken to court for passing a law to allow local LE to enforce federal law regarding illegals in the US. So why does the Feds get a free pass for not enforcing existing immigration laws. Seems if the Feds can ignore illegals, they can put the military on the borders.
As I have said, simply because you are unsatisfied with the progress doesnt mean the law isnt enforced.
 

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i say give the illegals already here a job patroling the border and if they let anyone past then guess who gets their job? and we can then send them back or over to iraq and afganistan and patrol the borders there.
 

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Seriously, when the current Congress, with about the lowest approval rating in history, is restructured in Nov, kicking out a bunch of marxist amnesty progressive democratic politicians and replacing them with conservative true patriots, the Posse Comitus law needs to be revisited. It seems that the military could have always been used in border security against illegal breakins by foreign nationals. This would not using the military against the US civilian population, for christ's sake, but against foreign nationals breaking in. It would seem then that the corrupt, bought off fed gov refuses to use the military to stop illegal breakins by foreign nationals, because it simply doesn't want to effectively stop illegal immigration. In the past enough repubs wanted the cheap labor and now enough dims want the cheap votes to actually effectively stop illegal immigration.
 

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I am uncomfortable with the armed forces being able to be deployed as a police force. That is not what they are trained to do, it is not what they are equipped to do.
They wouldn't be deployed as a police force they would be deployed as guards on the border. Which is something militaries do all over the world.Guarding is one of the many jobs of a soldier. A border is the first defense against neighboring and other countries. Therefore border security is a military job and therefore should be handled by the military.

Look up the history of the law. Its one that stretches back to Rome and it's job was to keep armies out of the city to prevent a coup backed by the military.
I did look it up. It was enacted in this country after the civil war,specifically right after reconstruction. So it was created to appease whiny crybaby southerners who lost the civil war.


I dont see a reason to repeal the law.
Most pro-illegals don't. Actually its most pro-illegals see reason to repeal the law they just do not want it repealed.

And tell me, what exactly do we need to worry about from Canada or Mexico? Undocumented Illegal immigration is not a significant threat.
If 12-20 million plus people trespassed into this country. Then how hard would it be if the invaders were armed to trespass into this country?

As I have said, simply because you are unsatisfied with the progress doesnt mean the law isnt enforced.
If you paid a guy to mow your lawn and he only mowed a square foot. Would you say he did his job? 12-20 million plus illegals in this country proves that they have not been doing their job. Token enforcement is not doing the job.
 
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VanceMack

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This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?
They wouldnt be enforcing laws inside the country they would be stopping invaders from entering.

Its useless having them there unless they have the green light to use those weapons.

And by damn...THAT would curb the flow of illegal immigration

Just ask mexico
 

Ockham

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This is something I've always been confused about. There is a group of people who seem to feel that locking down the border with the military is the best way to stop illegal immigration.

This ignores two basic problems;

First, we have a Posse Comitatus law. This prohibits the armed forces of the United States from acting as a police force inside the US.
Well that law wouldn't apply as the military would be acting as "a military" in keeping people away from and preventing them from crossing the border, and would not be acting as a police force. Of course, you have to define what "acting like a police force" means as well as "acting as a military" because they overlap. If that law were true and/or enforced we'd have no National Guard, and calling said National Guard during times of emergency would be illegal.

Second, almost half of illegal immigrants overstay work visas, they dont hop the border.

With these in mind, why is there such a drive to militarize the border?
I think keeping folks off the border works one way... they wouldn't be there to prevent folks from leaving the U.S., they're there to prevent folks from coming into the U.S. Illegals who overstay their visa's either evade the police or ICE, leave voluntarily, find sanctuary in certain U.S. city's, or are deported.

So why wouldn't using the military be effective and legal again?
 

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IIRC, thats only for states of emergency and in response to natural disasters, not to handle everyday situations of law enforcement.

It shouldnt be the Federal government's job to enforce laws against hiring people without the proper paperwork.

Ok, so what is the FBI supposed to do about it?

And in theory, that's how it works.

I am uncomfortable with the armed forces being able to be deployed as a police force. That is not what they are trained to do, it is not what they are equipped to do.

Look up the history of the law. Its one that stretches back to Rome and it's job was to keep armies out of the city to prevent a coup backed by the military. I dont see a reason to repeal the law.

And tell me, what exactly do we need to worry about from Canada or Mexico? Undocumented immigration is not a significant threat.

As I have said, simply because you are unsatisfied with the progress doesnt mean the law isnt enforced.
Don't you think the Feds should listen to the people, especially the States most impacted by illegals? If they would listen, the Feds would know they need to do more. IMO, to respond to your last statement, enforcement is pretty token response when compared to the shear numbers of illegals. I have all the respect in the world for LE and Border Patrol. Most in my State says they need more help.
 
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