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"Logical" people stack the deck against Death Penalty

Naughty Nurse

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And when an innocent person is wrongfully executed you cannot reverse it.
 

Schweddy

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Is this death refering to hell, physical death or spiritual death?
 

Shamgar

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Naughty Nurse said:
And when an innocent person is wrongfully executed you cannot reverse it.
So true. . . . . but in God's system false witness's in a capital cases are executed also. . . unlike man's failed system. .. .

 

Naughty Nurse

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Shamgar said:
So true. . . . . but in God's system false witness's in a capital cases are executed also. . . unlike man's failed system. .. .

So that would make it alright then? :confused:
 

Arch Enemy

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Shamgar said:
So true. . . . . but in God's system false witness's in a capital cases are executed also. . . unlike man's failed system. .. .


I like how this is turning out.

Just from seeing all this, it's impossible for Jesus to be God. They have two different beliefs, one believes in killing all those who do not worship, the other preaches love for all living beings.

Kill 'Em all and Let God Sort Them OUT!

The death penalty is outdated and should be totally abolished. NO ONE (execpt for a very small few) deserve death, I love how the Republican-Christians like playing God.
 

LaMidRighter

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Arch Enemy said:
The death penalty is outdated and should be totally abolished. NO ONE (execpt for a very small few) deserve death, I love how the Republican-Christians like playing God.
let's put it this way, I have less respect for a murderer, rapist, or child molester's life than a human fetus, which is innocent life. If someone were to injure/destroy my family by way of rape, murder, or molestation I can promise this, for legal reasons I would call the police and give them a 15 minute head start and suggest they hurry to the possible future scene of that criminals murder. As far as the outdated question, how can killing a killer be outdated? Or a rapist/molester? These are the scum of the earth and their lives are served for no other purpose than to inflict harm and pain. What business do they have using up the innocent's air?
 

Gandhi>Bush

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LaMidRighter said:
let's put it this way, I have less respect for a murderer, rapist, or child molester's life than a human fetus, which is innocent life. If someone were to injure/destroy my family by way of rape, murder, or molestation I can promise this, for legal reasons I would call the police and give them a 15 minute head start and suggest they hurry to the possible future scene of that criminals murder. As far as the outdated question, how can killing a killer be outdated? Or a rapist/molester? These are the scum of the earth and their lives are served for no other purpose than to inflict harm and pain. What business do they have using up the innocent's air?
Personally, I disagree with the death penalty. I'd rather have these men/women in prisons indefinitely, but it's prison's that are the problem. Prison systems need major reform. Prison guards not only have to contain prisoners, but as it was recently decided, have the responsibility of rehabilitating these men, which is something they have no experience or training in doing. On top of that, they are underpaid. Our tax dollars go toward providing the inmates with cable TV, internet access, nice comfy beds and pillows, recreational sports. Most of these aren't privledges that they have to earn. They get them just for being there.

I like the idea of putting them to work, and that being how they gain privleges. Not "good behavior." That's bullshit. "Good behavior" is what we should expect, not what we should reward. "Bad behavior" should be punished, but otherwise we should expect decency from them. Treating them like animals will make them more inclined to act like animals. Also getting some clinical/counseling psychologists in the prisons wouldn't be a bad idea.

I have no respect for murderers and rapists, but killing them makes a murderer out of all us. That's something I'm not inclined to be. Unless a prisoner would rather be executed rather than serve a life sentence. If he wants to die, do it.
 

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The odds of a man being wrongfully executed are slim anyway.. DNA testing as made sure of that
 

LaMidRighter

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Gandhi>Bush said:
Personally, I disagree with the death penalty. I'd rather have these men/women in prisons indefinitely, but it's prison's that are the problem. Prison systems need major reform. Prison guards not only have to contain prisoners, but as it was recently decided, have the responsibility of rehabilitating these men, which is something they have no experience or training in doing.
The main reason I disagree with this point is that the three criteria I stated earlier all ruin lives, they violate the innocent in such a way that is usually unforgiveable, speaking of that, I think a concession could be made for those families that want to give the condemned a lighter sentence(such as life or 45years or something) and I do believe that someone who would truly become rehabilitated could maybe get a second chance, I still think we'd execute alot of these people

On top of that, they are underpaid. Our tax dollars go toward providing the inmates with cable TV, internet access, nice comfy beds and pillows, recreational sports. Most of these aren't privledges that they have to earn. They get them just for being there.
I like the idea of putting them to work, and that being how they gain privleges. Not "good behavior." That's bullshit. "Good behavior" is what we should expect, not what we should reward. "Bad behavior" should be punished, but otherwise we should expect decency from them. Treating them like animals will make them more inclined to act like animals. Also getting some clinical/counseling psychologists in the prisons wouldn't be a bad idea.
Now this part I am in complete agreement with and as far as manual labor, Hell yeah, they should do something productive to repay a society they have harmed and prison should be an experience that does not want to be repeated, not "three hots and a cot" or taxpayer sponsored criminal hotels.

I have no respect for murderers and rapists, but killing them makes a murderer out of all us. That's something I'm not inclined to be. Unless a prisoner would rather be executed rather than serve a life sentence. If he wants to die, do it.
I respect your opinion on this but also respectfully disagree, I believe in protecting all innocent life, but when a life is used for the kinds of things that make people cringe, the truly evil parts of life, I think that these lives are a cancer and must be removed.
 
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Gandhi>Bush

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LaMidRighter said:
The main reason I disagree with this point is that the three criteria I stated earlier all ruin lives, they violate the innocent in such a way that is usually unforgiveable, speaking of that, I think a concession could be made for those families that want to give the condemned a lighter sentence(such as life or 45years or something) and I do believe that someone who would truly become rehabilitated could maybe get a second chance, I still think we'd execute alot of these people
I don't like the idea of state sponsored revenge. A life sentence is pretty harsh. Lock them away. "Unforgiveable" is a label that I think, as humans, we should not be making.

I respect your opinion on this but also respectfully disagree, I believe in protecting all innocent life, but when a life is used for the kinds of things that make people cringe, the truly evil parts of life, I think that these lives are a cancer and must be removed.
A cancer indeed and in this case you are arguing for excising the cancer and I am arguing for chemotherapy :lol:.
 

LaMidRighter

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I don't like the idea of state sponsored revenge. A life sentence is pretty harsh.
I figure that's one of the undepateable opinions, making a decision such as execution is either something you support or don't, cheers on that.
"Unforgiveable" is a label that I think, as humans, we should not be making.
Yea and Nea, I think as fallible humans we are predispositioned to have some rare instances that most of us can't forgive(excluding sociopaths and the ill tempered who just can't give second chances), however, people of peaceful religions should aspire to that ideal of an unconditional forgiveness. You are mostly right on that I have to concede.



A cancer indeed and in this case you are arguing for excising the cancer and I am arguing for chemotherapy :lol:.
That's funny, yeah, maybe I am kinda advocating a .44 for a rabbit hunt. Time will tell I guess.
 

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I'd rather have these men/women in prisons indefinitely, but it's prison's that are the problem.
But who will pay for their "indefinate imprisonment". The prison system is a horrible experiment and should be abolished. As soon as you put any group of people together they will form new contacts and develop into a sub-culture. Only mad regimes would knowingly promote inner cultures centred around organised crime. But I think the death penalty should be kept around for the worst criminals. So what if mistakes are made? Mistakes happen all the time. It's part of life. Innocent people die every day for all sorts of reasons. Which would be worse anyhow? Death or being innocently caged up with a bunch of animals for a few years? If the crime is serious enough to warrant a death sentence then it would carry a mandatory 20 years I expect. I'd rather die.

In the middle east they cut off your hand for stealing. The one used for eating. Because eating is done with only that hand and wiping your backside is done with the other. Without an eating hand you cannot share in a communal meal. Hand severing is not designed to prevent stealing but to make the criminal a social outcast. Barbaric to you and me but effective in keeping theft down to managable levels.
 
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LaMidRighter

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Wayne Smith said:
But who will pay for their "indefinate imprisonment". The prison system is a horrible experiment and should be abolished. As soon as you put any group of people together they will form new contacts and develop into a sub-culture. Only mad regimes would knowingly promote inner cultures centred around organised crime. But I think the death penalty should be kept around for the worst criminals. So what if mistakes are made? Mistakes happen all the time. It's part of life. Innocent people die every day for all sorts of reasons. Which would be worse anyhow? Death or being innocently caged up with a bunch of animals for a few years? If the crime is serious enough to warrant a death sentence then it would carry a mandatory 20 years I expect. I'd rather die.
I've made points like that before myself and agree with you, but I don't like to keep beating the same horse too much, Ghandi>Bush is a pretty cool cat though, he's just a pacifist so I usually keep the debates friendly.

In the middle east they cut off your hand for stealing. The one used for eating. Because eating is done with only that hand and wiping your backside is done with the other. Without an eating hand you cannot share in a communal meal. Hand severing is not designed to prevent stealing but to make the criminal a social outcast. Barbaric to you and me but effective in keeping theft down to managable levels.
Heard about that punishment myself and it does seem effective, I know it would work to deter me from stealing, also, Saudi Arabia beheads for first offense O.W.I. that one seems a bit extreme to me, but I'm sure it keeps the incidents down, plus there is no second O.W.I.
 

Wayne Smith

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Saves on taxes and you have one less head to count when the next population measure is taken. Win win.
 

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[/QUOTE]


I disagree with #3, retaliating against the victim is a mute point. :lol:
 

Shamgar

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Naughty Nurse said:
So that would make it alright then? :confused:
Yup . . . . . as it is the most compassionate, efficient and cost effect form of justice available . . . unlike the failed Aemrican injustice system . . .

As for killing innocent people the medical profession kills people on a daily basis . . . . since they are the third leading cause of death . . .when you figure in abortions I am sure they are the leading cause of death . . . so obviously you are a hypocrite about killing innocent people . .. .



 

Gandhi>Bush

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Wayne Smith said:
But who will pay for their "indefinate imprisonment". The prison system is a horrible experiment and should be abolished. As soon as you put any group of people together they will form new contacts and develop into a sub-culture. Only mad regimes would knowingly promote inner cultures centred around organised crime. But I think the death penalty should be kept around for the worst criminals.
It's more expensive to execute them. As for the culture aspect, I find that to be quite unique. How do you propose we break down the sub-culture?

So what if mistakes are made? Mistakes happen all the time. It's part of life. Innocent people die every day for all sorts of reasons. Which would be worse anyhow? Death or being innocently caged up with a bunch of animals for a few years? If the crime is serious enough to warrant a death sentence then it would carry a mandatory 20 years I expect. I'd rather die.
I don't know that you'd say that if you were wrongly convicted.

In the middle east they cut off your hand for stealing. The one used for eating. Because eating is done with only that hand and wiping your backside is done with the other. Without an eating hand you cannot share in a communal meal. Hand severing is not designed to prevent stealing but to make the criminal a social outcast. Barbaric to you and me but effective in keeping theft down to managable levels.
I think being an ex-con is enough of a social stigma.
 

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Shamgar said:
. so obviously you are a hypocrite about killing innocent people . .. .
And what do you know about the kind of work I do? Please enlighten me as to how, exactly, I am a hypocrite?
 

Shamgar

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Naughty Nurse said:
And what do you know about the kind of work I do? Please enlighten me as to how, exactly, I am a hypocrite?
Score . . . .that's another two points for me . . . .
 

Wayne Smith

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It's more expensive to execute them.
Death row? Sure it is. Swifter justice is the answer. We make a decision and carry it through. The people who warrant execution don't deserve any further consideration. Stone them in the streets for all I care. Let the victims of the offender decide their fate and carry it through if they wish. Once someone is legally proclaimed a monster unfit for human society and guilty of the most horrendous crimes imaginable we should just erase that cancer immediately. Just my opinion. We have this inbuilt belief that humanity is priceless. It ain't. Humanity can be trash or treasure. You throw out trash.

As for the culture aspect, I find that to be quite unique. How do you propose we break down the sub-culture?
By removing all association between prisoners. By getting rid of the prison system altogether. Those prisoners fit to work are given jobs to do. Even if its only shovelling crap at the zoo. We keep them in work where they offer no risk to the public and put them in the charge of relatives or community leaders. We try to re-educate them. We don't pay them except in food and shelter. They have no freedom until we deem them safe to return to society. That's one option.

I don't know that you'd say that if you were wrongly convicted.
We all die eventually. Although the chances of me being tried and wrongly convicted for a crime I never commited is a definite possibility in any imperfect universe I won't lose any sleep over it. I doubt many Texans do either.

I think being an ex-con is enough of a social stigma.
So that the ex-con can go join another tribe and commit crimes there. Then another and another. In America there are different laws for different states. Criminals just drive a few kilometres and laugh their heads off. If things really get bad they take a drive to Mexico.

A severed hand tells everyone you are a thief. Their system works. Ours doesn't. Maybe with some refinement we can create a more efficient punishment system but I'd just go back to the drawing board and save money.
 

Gandhi>Bush

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Wayne Smith said:
Death row? Sure it is. Swifter justice is the answer. We make a decision and carry it through. The people who warrant execution don't deserve any further consideration. Stone them in the streets for all I care. Let the victims of the offender decide their fate and carry it through if they wish. Once someone is legally proclaimed a monster unfit for human society and guilty of the most horrendous crimes imaginable we should just erase that cancer immediately. Just my opinion. We have this inbuilt belief that humanity is priceless. It ain't. Humanity can be trash or treasure. You throw out trash.
I don't believe that we are fit to judge a man as "trash or treasure." There is potential to be both in any man.

By removing all association between prisoners. By getting rid of the prison system altogether. Those prisoners fit to work are given jobs to do. Even if its only shovelling crap at the zoo. We keep them in work where they offer no risk to the public and put them in the charge of relatives or community leaders. We try to re-educate them. We don't pay them except in food and shelter. They have no freedom until we deem them safe to return to society. That's one option.
I don't have a problem with this, but isolating prisoners so that they do not associate with others would be very costly. We have a hard enough time paying for two convicts per room.

We all die eventually. Although the chances of me being tried and wrongly convicted for a crime I never commited is a definite possibility in any imperfect universe I won't lose any sleep over it. I doubt many Texans do either.
I know I don't. I'm sure it's incredibly rare when it happens. I don't think it's a legitimate argument to be honest. I was just responding, however I don't think "We all die eventually" is a good argument either.

So that the ex-con can go join another tribe and commit crimes there. Then another and another. In America there are different laws for different states. Criminals just drive a few kilometres and laugh their heads off. If things really get bad they take a drive to Mexico.

A severed hand tells everyone you are a thief. Their system works. Ours doesn't. Maybe with some refinement we can create a more efficient punishment system but I'd just go back to the drawing board and save money.
If we increase efforts to reform and reeducate, we won't have to worry about such barbaric ways of punishment.
 

Shamgar

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Gandhi>Bush said:
I highly doubt that you have ever "scored."
It is so sad that the "logical people" have to show their hypocrisy . . . . isn't part of your religion that ad hominems are naughty? . . . . oh well the worship of logic is illogical. . . .

 

Gandhi>Bush

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Shamgar said:
It is so sad that the "logical people" have to show their hypocrisy . . . . isn't part of your religion that ad hominems are naughty? . . . . oh well the worship of logic is illogical. . . .

:moon: :moon:
 
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