• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Liberalism's true function

keith

Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
231
Reaction score
114
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
"The function of Liberalism in the past was that of putting a limit to the powers of kings. The function of true Liberalism in the future will be that of putting a limit to the powers of Parliaments."--- Herbert Spencer
 

lizzie

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
28,581
Reaction score
31,551
Location
between two worlds
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Unfortunately, the meaning of liberalism in America, as is commonly understood, doesn't really indicate that governments should be limited. It would be nice if that were the case.
 

Carjosse

Sit Nomine Digna
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 14, 2012
Messages
14,430
Reaction score
6,178
Location
Montreal, QC
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Let's try another quote:
Liberalism is the philosophy for our time, because it does not try to conserve every tradition of the past, because it does not apply to new problems the old doctrinaire solutions, because it is prepared to experiment and innovate and because it knows that the past is less important than the future. -- Pierre Trudeau
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Let's try another quote:
Liberalism is the philosophy for our time, because it does not try to conserve every tradition of the past, because it does not apply to new problems the old doctrinaire solutions, because it is prepared to experiment and innovate and because it knows that the past is less important than the future. -- Pierre Trudeau
If liberals are so innovative, why do they need to quote a dead guy to defend their existence?
 

TiredOfLife

Banned
Joined
Jul 31, 2013
Messages
2,817
Reaction score
582
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
If liberals are so innovative, why do they need to quote a dead guy to defend their existence?
We like to learn from the past but unlike you guys we don't let it dictate the future.
 

Thrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
20,295
Reaction score
9,800
Location
Texas, Vegas, Colombia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Unfortunately, the meaning of liberalism in America, as is commonly understood, doesn't really indicate that governments should be limited. It would be nice if that were the case.
the meaning is still the same as it always was.... it's just that many of the folks that call themselves liberals are not liberal.
 

Fisher

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
17,002
Reaction score
6,913
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
We like to learn from the past but unlike you guys we don't let it dictate the future.
Well I am not a conservative on most things--I am just an anti-federalist on most things, a distinction autocrats cannot even conceptualize.
 

lizzie

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
28,581
Reaction score
31,551
Location
between two worlds
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Libertarian
the meaning is still the same as it always was.... it's just that many of the folks that call themselves liberals are not liberal.
The true meaning is the same. The meaning, as used by Americans is different, and many of those who call themselves liberals here, support a government with a long and strong arm.
 

Goshin

The Hammer of Chaos
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 16, 2009
Messages
45,508
Reaction score
50,075
Location
Dixie
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
"The function of Liberalism in the past was that of putting a limit to the powers of kings. The function of true Liberalism in the future will be that of putting a limit to the powers of Parliaments."--- Herbert Spencer

In America, they're doing just the opposite. Unfortunately so are the conservatives, just differing in details.


In short, we're screwed.
 

Logicman

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Messages
18,879
Reaction score
1,897
Location
United States
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Conservative
Liberalism is a godless and insatiable quest for power and other people's property and money.
 

APACHERAT

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
15,633
Reaction score
6,159
Location
Behind the Orange Curtain
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Unfortunately, the meaning of liberalism in America, as is commonly understood, doesn't really indicate that governments should be limited. It would be nice if that were the case.
>" Joseph Schumpeter says: "As a supreme, if unintended, compliment, the enemies of private enterprise have thought it wise to appropriate its label" (i.e.,"liberalism"). In the early 20th century, for instance, the education reformer John Dewey marveled at the achievements of Soviet Bolshevism and urged Americans “to give up much of [their] economic freedom,” to abandon their “individualistic tradition,” and to recognize “the supremacy of public need over private possessions.” And yet Dewey called himself not a Marxist but a liberal -- a "new" liberal; similarly, he referred to his ideas not as collectivism but rather as individualism -- a "new" individualism.

Over the succeeding years and decades, leftists, progressives, and socialists have routinely championed crusades and ideals bearing ever-less resemblance to classical liberalism, yet they invariably have identified both themselves and their evolving causes as “liberal.” Programs that were in fact leftist and socialist were enacted by legislators and social reformers in the name of “liberalism,” whose reputation as a guardian of human freedom served not only to shield those programs from public criticism, but in fact to win wide public approval of them.

In terms of both semantic usage and governmental policy, "liberalism" today is most widely associated with a single concept: the mixed economy, i.e., a state that is neither completely capitalist (laissez faire) nor entirely socialist (totalitarian). It is a union of conflicting -- liberal vs. anti-liberal -- elements. As Friedrich Hayek, the great twentieth-century scholar of liberalism, observed, such inconsistencies raise a host of vital questions:

If we have the redistribution of wealth, then what of private property?
If we enact biased laws to effect economic (or "social") equality, then what of political equality?
If we regard the collective as the essential entity, then what of the primacy of the individual?
Precisely what is the mix of the mixed economy?
When is it capitalist and when is it socialist?
When does it protect property and when does it confiscate it?
When does it leave people alone and when does it coerce them?
When does it adhere to the ethics of individualism and when does it obey the code of collectivism?
Mixed practices (such as the mixed economy) imply mixed principles, which in turn imply mixed, and therefore irrational, premises. And it is precisely that jumble which constitutes the modern "liberal" welfare state. Its exemplar is the "liberal" who supports laissez faire for social issues but statism for economic issues.

Contemporary "liberalism," then, is a parody of its predecessor. It is leftism in disguise. Specifically, it is a stalwart champion of:

group rights and collective identity, rather than of individual rights and responsibilities (e.g., the racial preference policies known as affirmative action, and the left's devotion to identity politics generally);
the circumvention of law rather than the rule of law (as exemplified by the flouting of immigration laws and nondiscrimination laws, and by a preference for judicial activism whereby judges co-opt the powers that rightfully belong to legislators);
the expansion of government rather than its diminution (favoring ever-escalating taxes to fund a bloated welfare state and a government that oversees virtually every aspect of human life); and
the redistribution of wealth (through punitive taxes and, again, a mushrooming welfare state) rather than its creation through free markets based on private property.
In addition, today's "liberalism," unlike classical liberalism, is intolerant of opposing viewpoints, favors the promotion of group-think, and interprets as treason any deviation from its own intellectual orthodoxy. We see this phenomenon manifested with particular clarity by self-identified black "liberals" who excoriate black conservatives as “race traitors,” “house slaves,” “Oreos,” and “Uncle Toms.” <
Liberalism - Discover the Networks
 

Gaugingcatenate

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 20, 2013
Messages
12,331
Reaction score
1,939
Location
Formerly of the Southern USA, now permanently in t
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Let's try another quote:
Liberalism is the philosophy for our time, because it does not try to conserve every tradition of the past, because it does not apply to new problems the old doctrinaire solutions, because it is prepared to experiment and innovate and because it knows that the past is less important than the future. -- Pierre Trudeau
Situation is, the conservatives attempt to keep that which works, and in our system what our founders laid down as completely new [ Classical Liberalism ] worked. Not perfectly, mind you, but better than anything to date. What liberals are trying to advertise as new and improved is just warmed up left overs from attempts at achieving a "utopia" that we know from past experience turn, fairly quickly, into dystopias.

That would be what? Liberal conservatism? By its real name it is socialism, traveling over the speed limit here, on the interstate that leads to communism. And if you cannot see that, you certainly should not be driving on that interstate.
 

Thrilla

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
20,295
Reaction score
9,800
Location
Texas, Vegas, Colombia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
That's the trend of what America's liberals have been morphing into.
...and that's why I say a lot of liberals are not liberal.

labels aren't **** when it comes to reality... what folks call themselves is irrelevant to what they actually are.
lots of conservatives are not conservative, lots of liberals are not liberal, lots of libertarians are not libertarian.. so on and so forth.
 
Top Bottom