LGBT? Why the T?

[Ben K.]

So in this movement, the first three letters refer to sexual orientation. The T refers to gender identity. It seems to make as little sense as an LGBIP movement (Lesbian, gay, bisexual, indiginous people). Anyone think the transgender movement is riding the coat-tails of the LGB movement? Or can someone explain to me why this alliance exists?

 

[Alyssa]

I think transgendered refers to people who believe that they were born the wrong sex.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Many people who identify with being Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual are transgender.

At the end of the word grouping it's a encompassing term and not necessarily referring to people who are different than the previous 3.

Does it matter? If you struggle with psychological gender issues you like can identify with the other three anyway.

 

[tessaesque]

It's about social exceptance for those of varying sexual tendancies. Being transgendered is intrinsically tied into sex, so there's really no reason why it shouldn't be included.

 

[Ben K.]

I don't see how gender identity is intrinsically attached to sexual preference. In fact, such a belief seems to go against what LGBs would argue for, that gender commands ones sexual orientation.

To Spiker I'd say it does matter. Debate requires clear terminology to progress and I see no relationship between the two issues.

 

[spud_meister]

I don't see how gender identity is intrinsically attached to sexual preference. In fact, such a belief seems to go against what LGBs would argue for, that gender commands ones sexual orientation.

It's not, but gender is intrinsic to sexual orientation, and as such transgenderism is tied to the sexual orientation labels.

 

[roguenuke]

Because many rules/laws that affect LGB people also affect T people, many times because the sexuality of those who are trans is automatically assumed to be homosexual, in relation to their born sex. Along with this, much of the social pressures they face is due to the differences between them and other people, some who expect LGB&T people to act what they perceive as "normal", even if that is against the LGBT person's own nature.

 

[Ikari]

So in this movement, the first three letters refer to sexual orientation. The T refers to gender identity. It seems to make as little sense as an LGBIP movement (Lesbian, gay, bisexual, indiginous people). Anyone think the transgender movement is riding the coat-tails of the LGB movement? Or can someone explain to me why this alliance exists?

I've seen it with a "Q" as well. "LGBTQ" where the Q is apparently for queer.

 

[spud_meister]

I've seen it with a "Q" as well. "LGBTQ" where the Q is apparently for queer.

I've seen LGBTIQ, these acronyms confuse the **** outta me.

 

[roguenuke]

I've seen LGBTIQ, these acronyms confuse the **** outta me.

Q is for queer or questioning, usually. And I is for intersex, which is people who are androgynous.

 

[Jerry]

I've seen LGBTIQ, these acronyms confuse the **** outta me.

They don't even know what sex/gender they are or who they're attracted to, and you expect them to figure out what to call themselves? Frankly I'm surprised they know their own name. They're all sorts of jacked up.

 

[VanceMack]

Why the 'T' ? Cuz it make LGBTQQA just SING....

 

[Jerry]

Why the 'T' ? Cuz it make LGBTQQA just SING....

Add a couple numbers in there and you have a pretty good password.

 

[VanceMack]

Add a couple numbers in there and you have a pretty good password.

Hey! Good point!!! As often as I have to change passwords with the gov...I might want to use that!

 

[spud_meister]

They don't even know what sex/gender they are or who they're attracted to, and you expect them to figure out what to call themselves? Frankly I'm surprised they know their own name. They're all sorts of jacked up.

It'd make their sex lives far more interesting though.

 

[Ben K.]

It's not, but gender is intrinsic to sexual orientation, and as such transgenderism is tied to the sexual orientation labels.

I suppose I could buy this, but a number of identifiers people use may imply much about how they view sexuality, which will also depend on their gender (religion for instance). 'twould be a bit strange to group them on that account. Plus, identifying as transgender doesn't say anything about ones sexuality and identifying as bisexual does not say anything about ones gender though the other two may.

 

[Ben K.]

Because many rules/laws that affect LGB people also affect T people, many times because the sexuality of those who are trans is automatically assumed to be homosexual, in relation to their born sex. Along with this, much of the social pressures they face is due to the differences between them and other people, some who expect LGB&T people to act what they perceive as "normal", even if that is against the LGBT person's own nature.

How would those who are victims of such public confusion benefit by they themselves making that association?

 

[roguenuke]

How would those who are victims of such public confusion benefit by they themselves making that association?

The laws against SSM are written in such a way where there is uncertainty about whether an existing marriage between two people of opposite sex pre-op or pre-legal sex change that there is currently legal questions about the legitimacy of such marriages after a person transitions legally/physically to the other sex and both wish to remain together legally in marriage. There is also the issue that some states refuse to change a person's sex legally, even after a sex change operation, which prevents people from getting married if they are attracted to members of the same sex as their original sex.

Legal aspects of transsexualism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
LAWYER | Legal Facts -- Transgender Issues | Pennsylvania & New Jersey

It is true that all of these things can be dealt with simply by allowing SSM to be legal everywhere, but I think a big part of it is to bring up the fact that same sex marriage bans do not just effect people who are homosexual. It also puts transsexuals in a bigger group, bringing in support and awareness to their cause that is at least generally related to the other group's cause. It is certainly easy to see why many transsexuals would want SSM to be legal.

Now, there are certainly legal issues that mainly effect transsexuals, no matter their sexuality, such as legally being able to change your sex and when a person can do this.

 

[tessaesque]

I don't see how gender identity is intrinsically attached to sexual preference. In fact, such a belief seems to go against what LGBs would argue for, that gender commands ones sexual orientation.

To Spiker I'd say it does matter. Debate requires clear terminology to progress and I see no relationship between the two issues.

Gender doesn't command sexual orientation. Genetics/brain chemistry/horomones, etc. are all more commonly believed to have a hand in sexual orientation. Genetics and horomone exposure are all more commonly believed to have a hand in gender identification. What sexuality and gender identity have in common is that those in the minority are often the outcasts, the misjudged, those who are considered "freaks" or whose lifestyles are called unnatural. Joining together makes perfect sense, much like Latinos and blacks banning together to fight for the rights of racial minorities.

 

[Ben K.]

Gender doesn't command sexual orientation. Genetics/brain chemistry/horomones, etc. are all more commonly believed to have a hand in sexual orientation. Genetics and horomone exposure are all more commonly believed to have a hand in gender identification. What sexuality and gender identity have in common is that those in the minority are often the outcasts, the misjudged, those who are considered "freaks" or whose lifestyles are called unnatural. Joining together makes perfect sense, much like Latinos and blacks banning together to fight for the rights of racial minorities.

My OP deals with this. It makes as much sense as an LGBIP movement. Gender identity is as different from sexual orientation as religion or race. Call it a civil rights movement if one wishes to encompass all minorities, or an LGB movement if one is only fighting for the rights of minorities of particular orientations, the term "LGBT movement" seems unjustified and promotes ignorance of those involved.

 

[tessaesque]

My OP deals with this. It makes as much sense as an LGBIP movement. Gender identity is as different from sexual orientation as religion or race. Call it a civil rights movement if one wishes to encompass all minorities, or an LGB movement if one is only fighting for the rights of minorities of particular orientations, the term "LGBT movement" seems unjustified and promotes ignorance of those involved.

I don't really see how you can come to that conclusion without being completely ignorant of the issues affecting LGBT people.

 

[Ben K.]

The laws against SSM are written in such a way where there is uncertainty about whether an existing marriage between two people of opposite sex pre-op or pre-legal sex change that there is currently legal questions about the legitimacy of such marriages after a person transitions legally/physically to the other sex and both wish to remain together legally in marriage. There is also the issue that some states refuse to change a person's sex legally, even after a sex change operation, which prevents people from getting married if they are attracted to members of the same sex as their original sex.

Legal aspects of transsexualism in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
LAWYER | Legal Facts -- Transgender Issues | Pennsylvania & New Jersey

It is true that all of these things can be dealt with simply by allowing SSM to be legal everywhere, but I think a big part of it is to bring up the fact that same sex marriage bans do not just effect people who are homosexual. It also puts transsexuals in a bigger group, bringing in support and awareness to their cause that is at least generally related to the other group's cause. It is certainly easy to see why many transsexuals would want SSM to be legal.

Now, there are certainly legal issues that mainly effect transsexuals, no matter their sexuality, such as legally being able to change your sex and when a person can do this.

But same sex marriage bans do just affect those who are homosexual, they may just happen be transgendered, white, black, muslim or republican etc. How the state chooses to define gender is a completely seperate debate.

 

[Manc Skipper]

How would those who are victims of such public confusion benefit by they themselves making that association?

Those who need to understand, do. Those who profess or feign ignorance of the terms are irrelevant. The terms apply to the LGBT person's lived experience, not abstract debating points.

 

[Ben K.]

Those who need to understand, do. Those who profess or feign ignorance of the terms are irrelevant. The terms apply to the LGBT person's lived experience, not abstract debating points.

Delineation of the difference between gender and sexuality is hardly abstarct. I submit that terminology like "lived experience" is abstract. What lived experience do you think a homosexual and a trans-gendered person share that does not involve crossing over the identifiers?

 

[roguenuke]

But same sex marriage bans do just affect those who are homosexual, they may just happen be transgendered, white, black, muslim or republican etc. How the state chooses to define gender is a completely seperate debate.

On the contrary, a person who is one sex when they get legally married, and then get a sex change, are now going to be legally married to a person of the same sex as themselves if their state legally changes sex for a person. Without SSM being legal in all the states or with the federal government, these people now have no idea if their marriage is legal or not for any one state they are in or with the federal government.

Tell me, what sexuality would you consider a person having if they were born a man, married a woman, and then had a sex change to become a woman? What sexuality do you think others, including the courts and government, would consider them as having? What about a woman who has a sex change to become a man, then marries a woman? How about legally speaking, what is their sexuality? Would it depend on the state they are in? What if they move to a state that does not recognize their new sex as legal? What if they move to a state that recognizes their new sex as legal, but bans SSM, and they are legally married to a person of the same sex in this new state? Where do these people fall in the scheme of legal marriage?

The SSM issue greatly effects transgendered people, some before and some after the surgery. But it effects the whole group, not just a few members who happen to be homosexual or want to be get married to a person of the same sex, since either before or after the surgery, depending on where they live, they will or could be of the same sex as that person.