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Let’s Talk Predestination

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 ESV
4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.


1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

=======================
NOTE- In Chapter 1 verse 4 Paul is clearly stating that they were chosen by God. They didn't choose God, he chose them. And that the Gospel came in power and in the Holy Spirit.

In Chapter 2 verse 13 he is describing how what they teach are not words of men, as we know some non-believers like to say to reject the scriptures, but that the words came from God.

The word of God can only work in those who he has chosen as the rest have hardened hearts as a result of the first birth into sin and only birth they will experience. And Romans 3:23 tells us why " For all have sinned and fall short the Glory of God"

God is sovereign and he wishes that "none should perish". When looking at that quote wouldn't he just save everyone? No, he does not.

I will continue to point to the parable of the 4 soils. The overwhelming majority (75%) thought they were saved, but in actuality, they were not. For the gate is narrow and not all will find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
3 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
 
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VySky said:
The word of God can only work in those who he has chosen as the rest have hardened hearts as a result of the first birth into sin and only birth they will experience. And Romans 3:23 tells us why " For all have sinned and fall short the Glory of God"

God is sovereign and he wishes that "none should perish". When looking at that quote wouldn't he just save everyone? No, he does not.
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One thing contradicts another……ALL have sinned and God only chooses a few ? It seems that prayer, repentance and church attendance are meaningless ? The only ones that have reason to believe in predestination are the proud and haughty that believe that they are better than others and so believe that it is only logical that God has chosen them….
 
Metanoia said:
One thing contradicts another……ALL have sinned and God only chooses a few ?
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The queston is why did he choose to save anyone?

Metanoia said:
It seems that prayer, repentance and church attendance are meaningless ?
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Matthew 7:21-23​

​

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ​

​

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ​

​

23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’​


Metanoia said:
The only ones that have reason to believe in predestination are the proud and haughty that believe that they are better than others and so believe that it is only logical that God has chosen them….
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Not really. Not everyone who thinks they are saved are actually saved. The includes those who identify as calvanist
 
VySky said:
The queston is why did he choose to save anyone?


Matthew 7:21-23​

​

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ​

​

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ​

​

23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’​

​

​


Not really. Not everyone who thinks they are saved are actually saved. The includes those who identify as calvanist
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Honestly look at the what is stated above. Do you see something missing? It's sure glaring to me! Such individuals above are responding ONLY with what THEY did. By GRACE are we saved not of works lest anyone should boast. What is said above is clearly, about their works and the atonement of the LORD JESUS CHRIST is nowhere to be found. Works not don't by and through CHRIST are but filthy rags. Where does it state above, about believing in the SON of GOD?
And this is His commandment (THE WILL OF THE FATHER), that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 1 John 3:23

And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12 (THIS IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER).
 
VySky said:
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5 ESV
4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.


1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

=======================
NOTE- In Chapter 1 verse 4 Paul is clearly stating that they were chosen by God. They didn't choose God, he chose them. And that the Gospel came in power and in the Holy Spirit.

In Chapter 2 verse 13 he is describing how what they teach are not words of men, as we know some non-believers like to say to reject the scriptures, but that the words came from God.

The word of God can only work in those who he has chosen as the rest have hardened hearts as a result of the first birth into sin and only birth they will experience. And Romans 3:23 tells us why " For all have sinned and fall short the Glory of God"

God is sovereign and he wishes that "none should perish". When looking at that quote wouldn't he just save everyone? No, he does not.

I will continue to point to the parable of the 4 soils. The overwhelming majority (75%) thought they were saved, but in actuality, they were not. For the gate is narrow and not all will find it.

Matthew 7:13-14
3 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Click to expand...
Paul is Saul.
A persecutor of Xtians. An agent of Satan.

As for the OP, there's no free will with predestination and/or omniscience.
 
VySky said:
The queston is why did he choose to save anyone?


Matthew 7:21-23​

​

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ​

​

22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ​

​

23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’​

​

​


Not really. Not everyone who thinks they are saved are actually saved. The includes those who identify as calvanist
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You are saying you believe in a God who just created a whole lot of sentient human beings so he could use them for eternal firewood for the furnaces of hell.

OK if you say so. Sounds like a pretty frightening psychopath. But even if true, what difference does this make in anything in THIS world? What are we supposed to do about it?
 
dairyair said:
Paul is Saul.
A persecutor of Xtians. An agent of Satan.

As for the OP, there's no free will with predestination and/or omniscience.
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"Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without a rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."
-Thomas Jefferson

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

And then we wonder how people go and vote for someone like Donald Trump.
 
ataraxia said:
"Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without a rudder, is the sport of every wind. With such persons, gullibility, which they call faith, takes the helm from the hand of reason, and the mind becomes a wreck."
-Thomas Jefferson

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

And then we wonder how people go and vote for someone like Donald Trump.
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transgenders. Got trump the victory. /sarcasm. sort of.
 
LittleNipper said:
Honestly look at the what is stated above. Do you see something missing? It's sure glaring to me! Such individuals above are responding ONLY with what THEY did. By GRACE are we saved not of works lest anyone should boast. What is said above is clearly, about their works and the atonement of the LORD JESUS CHRIST is nowhere to be found. Works not don't by and through CHRIST are but filthy rags. Where does it state above, about believing in the SON of GOD?
And this is His commandment (THE WILL OF THE FATHER), that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 1 John 3:23

And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved. Acts 4:12 (THIS IS THE WILL OF THE FATHER).
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Agree. That's why the above are going to where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. It is an illustration of many who think they are saved and will enter heaven but scripture tells us they will be rejected.
 
Because God is sovereign he can't just be sitting back waiting to see who would choose him. God never learns anything outside himself or he wouldn't be sovereign.

Lets look at Ephesians

Ephesians 1:4
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

Note- "before the foundation of the world". Through Gods sovereign will and before creation of the world clearly shows mankind had no say whatsoever. No human merit applies.

Note- "holy and without blame before him". Here we have God showing purpose and the result of God choosing who are to be saved.

Lets look at "foreknowledge". Simply it means God sets his love on those he chooses to save.

God doesn't look down the hallway of time to see who would choose him so that it leaves up to man on who God chooses. That contradicts Gods sovereignty.

The scripture from the book of John Chapter 10 teaches us that the sheep know the voice of their shepherd. It's an illustration showing how those who have been chosen before the creation of the world are drawn to him when they hear his voice as they were foreknown.This is an example of the effectual call.

And the sheep will not follow a strangers voice. For example, Gods chosen people who were continuing to be exposed to false teachers who held onto the law of works as the path to salvation. They reject the strangers voice and look to enter through the narrow gate and that is Christ (the good shepherd) on the cross.

John 10:1-9
1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.

2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
 
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VySky said:
Because God is sovereign he can't just be sitting back waiting to see who would choose him. God never learns anything outside himself or he wouldn't be sovereign.

Lets look at "foreknowledge". Simply it means God sets his love on those he chooses
Click to expand...

Acceptance of predestination makes the Gospel and everything else meaningless…..if everything is predetermined we are nothing more than robots that are here for the amusement of God….
 
Metanoia said:
Acceptance of predestination makes the Gospel and everything else meaningless…..if everything is predetermined we are nothing more than robots that are here for the amusement of God….
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The above is why I'm not a Presbyterian. I believe in foreknowledge and predestination in conjunction with each other. GOD foreknows how each person will react. Additionally, GOD knows who will accept CHRIST as their SAVIOR. The reality is, how you or I came into existence depended on people (over thousands of years) who may have been atheists or pagan and died in their sins. BUT their existence was necessary to that of mine and yours. But GOD predestined to allow "events to run their course, because HE loves me and wanted me in HIS eternity. How about you? Interestingly, I am the product of a ancestor who was a bigamist and married several women without getting a divorce nor informing these women of his shenanigans. I'm not the product of a perfect world --- if it was I wouldn't be here. Think about that ----- whose the black sheep in your past. And the simple fact is that the ramifications go back thousands of years...
 
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LittleNipper said:
. How about you?
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Makes no sense at all…….if all is predestined and if God had foreknowledge of all things we are simply waiting for death and then discovering our sentence…..our actions and beliefs are meaningless…I would guess that people who believe in it are suffering from inflated egos that lead them to believe that they belong to the fortunate few….
 
For those that believe in predestination is not repentance meaningless ?
 
Here is a key for me….1 Corinthians 11:31…..”But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.” Consider the meaning of ‘namaste’, a common greeting of Eastern religions and others. Essentially means that the divine in me recognizes and honors the divine in you…..there is no similar greeting in Christiandom. If we recognize the divinity in ourselves and others then self judgment is legitimate. Even though the Bible speaks of being one with God we seem to insist on separation from the Godhead.
 
Metanoia said:
Makes no sense at all…….if all is predestined and if God had foreknowledge of all things we are simply waiting for death and then discovering our sentence…..our actions and beliefs are meaningless…I would guess that people who believe in it are suffering from inflated egos that lead them to believe that they belong to the fortunate few….
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Pray about it. GOD foreknew that LittleNipper would accept CHRIST as his SAVIOR sometime in his existence. And HE predestined that everyone who would not accept CHRIST would end up eternally separated from HIM ---- even YOU possibly. The predestination isn't that GOD designed anyone to go to hell, but willingly allows many to end up there so that whosoever will may come.
 
Metanoia said:
Here is a key for me….1 Corinthians 11:31…..”But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment.” Consider the meaning of ‘namaste’, a common greeting of Eastern religions and others. Essentially means that the divine in me recognizes and honors the divine in you…..there is no similar greeting in Christiandom. If we recognize the divinity in ourselves and others then self judgment is legitimate. Even though the Bible speaks of being one with God we seem to insist on separation from the Godhead.
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We all are separated from GOD by any sin we commit. It is GOD who provided a means for the redemption of those that trust in HIM. When one judges one's self, (as a CHRISTIAN) one strives to correct one's behavior to be a good example of a child of GOD. Those who are saved but persist in living in sin, will be spanked by GOD the FATHER.
 
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Metanoia said:
For those that believe in predestination is not repentance meaningless ?
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Repentance for one's sin and not just being sorry for being caught is the beginning of one's road to salvation. Predestined is simply the realization that all have sinned and come short of GOD's glory. ALL are worthy of hell. But some will repent and have faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST for HIS atoning sacrifice.
 
LittleNipper said:
Repentance for one's sin and not just being sorry for being caught is the beginning of one's road to salvation. Predestined is simply the realization that all have sinned and come short of GOD's glory. ALL are worthy of hell. But some will repent and have faith in the LORD JESUS CHRIST for HIS atoning sacrifice.
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The capital letters are impressive….the logic not so much. Seems you are changing the definition of predestination to make it more palatable ?
 
….per definition salvation is predetermined…the destination is already known…..no going back and no going forward…..
 
I dont believe in predestination though i dont believe in libertarian free will. Our wills are influenced by things outside our control but influence does not mean determined nor dictated.
 
And religion by definition is reconnecting with God….predestination would make religion pointless….
 
Metanoia said:
The capital letters are impressive….the logic not so much. Seems you are changing the definition of predestination to make it more palatable ?
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Seems to me you are not a Christian, one way or the other. I feel that my personal view doesn't go against scripture, and your opinion is being applied by you as a deterrent to faith in CHRIST.
 
bomberfox said:
I dont believe in predestination though i dont believe in libertarian free will. Our wills are influenced by things outside our control but influence does not mean determined nor dictated.
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And sometimes we choose our influences….accepting some…discounting others….
 
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