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If they are not conducted in a fair and transparent manner, then they are illegitimate.
If they are not conducted in a fair and transparent manner, then they are illegitimate.Tell me something new. Was the elections in Crimea in 2014 at gunpoint? It was also declared illegitimate by the "golden billion".
But times have changed. Killing people for their territory is no longer an accepted method of expansion by the rest of the world. When a country like Russia does this in the 21st century, they become a pariah state, and with good reason. We don't tolerate actions like this anymore, nor should we.It's a matter of scale and geography. This whole situation is a lot more like the Republic of Texas, that voted to join the U.S., even though it had originally been Mexican territory. The U.S. accepted what amounted to the Republic of Texas' request, Mexico didn't like it and went to war with Texas, the U.S. didn't like that and booted Mexico out, as well as took more territory for Mexico's trouble. Seems that history has the same general trajectory for eastern Ukraine, just with different actors playing the part of Mexico (in this case the government in Kyiv) and the U.S. (in this case Russia). Complicating things is NATO, which Mexico definitely didn't have when it went to war with the U.S.
Eva Bartlett is hardly the only journalist who has said that the referendum was fairly done and the Eastern Ukrainians are predominantly eager to join Russia.
Yes, I concede that if the U.S. invaded Canada for the purpose of expanding its territory under the pretext of preventing them from doing business with China, then I would judge this as an unwise thing to do (to put it mildly,) and I would agree that it deserved to be heavily sanctioned by the rest of the world.Well, let me put it this way- if a hostile foreign power (let's say China) aided and abetted communists in Canada and managed to get the Canadian government overthrown and installed a government of their own, then proceeded to wage war with part of the country that didn't go along with what amounted to a coup, do you think the U.S. would stand idly by?
And if, after the U.S. spent 8 years trying to negotiate a peaceful settlement (as if, the U.S. would have started a military operation the day after the coup in Canada, but let's pretend) while around 10,000 Canadians died, a good deal of them American expats, they put boots on the ground in the part of Canada that was not yet controlled by Canada's new communist friendly government and started retaking territory from the communist controlled part, China and others were to put crippling sanctions on the U.S., do you think the U.S. would turn tail or rue the day they decided to help Canada?
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If they are not conducted in a fair and transparent manner, then they are illegitimate.
If an election conducted by Russians is not transparent, then no it is not possible for anyone to simply "take their word for it.".
Juin said:
Tell me something new. Was the elections in Crimea in 2014 at gunpoint? It was also declared illegitimate by the "golden billion".
Is it possible for any elections conducted by Russians to be transparent and illegitimate? The reason I mention this is that we are reaching a certain surreal situation where if a Russian says the world is round the west will denounce that assertion as false.
The "golden billion"* has crafted a profile of Russians in Ukraine out of fantasy. In the delicate hands of the "golden billion" ethnic Russians in Ukraine hate Putin, hate Russia, prefer being minorities under ethnic Ukrainians than part of majority ethnic Russian Russia, believe the eradication of Russian culture and literature by the newly minted ethnic Ukrainian State is salvation for them....
* golden billion is the Russian Dictator's jab at the billion population of the EU and America who have arrogated to themselves the arbiters of global matters. Maybe the Dictator is wrong, but that is how he referred to his nemesis in the west
as usual you (and most others)make these sweeping statement about the "Ukrainian people" when Ukraine has split loyalties
These are pro-Russian (anti-Kyiv actions) - so the referendum just confirms the split loyaltyies seen in the east,southeast & Crimea
But times have changed.
Killing people for their territory is no longer an accepted method of expansion by the rest of the world.
When a country like Russia does this in the 21st century, they become a pariah state, and with good reason. We don't tolerate actions like this anymore, nor should we.
The US, UK, and France haven't done this in modern times. And yes, it is ok to kill people for other reasons. People can be killed in self-defense, for instance. It is not ok to kill people because you want their land and they don't want to give it to you.Times have not changed.
It is ok to kill people for other reasons? I ask because the American Imperium and its Sancho Panza, the United Kingdom are notorious for military campaigns.
Why are you excluding the notorious three: US, UK, France?
Is it possible for any elections conducted by Russians to be transparent and illegitimate? The reason I mention this is that we are reaching a certain surreal situation where if a Russian says the world is round the west will denounce that assertion as false.
If an election conducted by Russians is not transparent, then no it is not possible for anyone to simply "take their word for it."
If the US hosted a referendum among Russian citizens to vote to join the United States and the U.S. simply declared that 97% of Russians want to join the U.S., would you accept their word that the elections were fair and that Russia is now the property of the U.S.?
The US, UK, and France haven't done this in modern times.
And yes, it is ok to kill people for other reasons. People can be killed in self-defense, for instance. It is not ok to kill people because you want their land and they don't want to give it to you.
The reason for this is very simple. Putin and the Russian government lie about nearly everything. Putin and the Russian government are deceitful. They say one thing, and they do another. So, people are reasonably skeptical of things Putin and officials of the Russian government say or write about any topic, especially as it concerns their own actions.
Here's a good example:
Putin is a piece of shit and a liar.
The people who support Putin either don't care that he is a liar or they are dumb as shit.
Examples abound. Ukrainians shell Zaporizhia NPP and claim it is actually Russians shelling their own positions.
All Russians are evil, down to the last babushka.
the west desperately does not want to give any credence to the fact those 4 oblasts are closer to RussiaReminds me of the “If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?". Everyone was free back in 2014 to head to Crimea to observe the elections, just as they have been free to go to the Oblasts a few days ago. Many went, not from the chic west. If the west chosed not to observe the elections then I am not sure how it has any grounds for claiming lack of transparency.
You are the west.the west desperately does not want to give any credence to the fact those 4 oblasts are closer to Russia
in terms of Crimea and Russian economy/lingua franca
I do criticize the invasion-why i dont support it -since Putin should have just carved these out instead of inflicting pain over the rest of Ukraine. Russia,Ukraine,and the west would be better off if Putin hadn't tried to swallow the whole of Ukraine.
But other then that Biden (leading the west) has escalated the war so it's now about "U.S. national security" because of nukes
Biden/Blinken have 0 credibility they didnt blow up the pipeline when we have it on record unambiguously promised to do so
Speaking to reporters on February 7, Biden said: "If Russia invades, that means tanks or troops crossing the border of Ukraine again,Video of Biden Saying He'd 'End' Nord Stream Resurfaces After Pipeline Leak
Nord Stream 2 has never become operational because the German government refused to certify it before Russia invaded Ukraine.www.newsweek.com
there will no longer be a Nord Stream 2."
"We will bring an end to it," the president said. A journalist asked Biden how he could do that since Germany was in control
of the project, the president replied: "I promise you: We will be able to do it."
newsflash!You are the west.
newsflash!
doesn't mean I can't criticize the needless escalation .utter lack of facilitating peace (Turkey did much more) avenues
and of course all the stupid sanctions+militarization of Ukraine into a defcto NATO state that got us here
Turkey also held some preliminary meeting early in the war.What did Turkey do??? Lol
He spoke to Putin what two weeks ago and said that Putin was interested in a talks etc. then the literally maybe the next day Putin announced these “referendums”
Just stop it. Stop lying on behalf of Putin. You are making yourself look very silly.
the west desperately does not want to give any credence to the fact those 4 oblasts are closer to Russia
in terms of Crimea and Russian economy/lingua franca
I do criticize the invasion-why i dont support it -since Putin should have just carved these out instead of inflicting pain over the rest of Ukraine. Russia,Ukraine,and the west would be better off if Putin hadn't tried to swallow the whole of Ukraine.
The reason why people have this opinion is because Russian soldiers keep engaging in evil acts.
So, my advice to you is to tell Russian soldiers to stop being assholes and leave Ukraine. Stop castrating people. Stop murdering civilians in cold blood such as in Bucha and Izyum. Stop murdering POWs. And GTF out of Ukraine. And never come back.
When the Russian soldiers do this, people will stop considering Russians to be evil.
A good starting point is for Russian civilians to stop supporting their government and their military.
If your soldiers go around killing people, don't cry like a little bitch when people start saying bad things about you. It's ridiculous.
It's not that complicated. My advice to Russians is as follows: don't be assholes and people won't think you're an asshole.
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